BadenP

From my own personal experience with four lodges I think that the main problem is that the OA is marketed or promoted very POORLY to the boys from the start. The second problem is that once the boys go through ordeal many lodges just do not have a fun and active enough program to keep them involved. While service is indeed an important part of the OA you need to also have some challenging outdoor events, and some just plain fun activities if you want to keep your members involved. The Indian costumes, customs, and dancing,IMO, should be reserved for special ceremonies and occasions and not used as a traveling entertainment troop for cub packs and the public. My .02 worth.

Eagle I agree with you, in my first year as a DE and as assistant camp director I watched our FD, who was camp director, sit around camp all day drinking with the camp cook instead of doing his job. One day he went into town and bought $200 of booze and charged it to the camp account, well the SE called him in, as soon as he saw the bill, and fired him from not only the camp staff but as FD of the council as well. So I and my fellow brand new DE just out of camping school spent the last 1 1/2 months trading off as camp director, it really was quite the experience but we both learned quite a bit that year.

After reading this thread I have to say sometimes we all do allow ourselves to get sidetracked because of our emotions. The notion of "cupcake scouts" is simply Kudu's opinion which he is entitled to express, as we all are. A SM from 1910, or 1950, or even 1970 might look at the boy scout program of today and express similiar opinions, but no one should take them personally. It is a fact that there are many more "Eagle Mill" troops in exsistence today, that you would not have seen 20-40 or more years ago, that attempt to get their boys all the way through to Eagle with MINIMAL effort. Kudu quoting the CSE on the outdoor aspect of scouting is also very true and accurate, the question then becomes what if any part will the outdoor skills part of scouting play in the BSA of the future? As the "old time" scoutmasters begin to step down will the succeeding generation of scoutmasters, and National personnel, raised with the modified or scaled down outdoor programs try to preserve this backbone of the scouting program or continue to allow it to diminish in both importance and practice. That's the question that really concerns me.

Well Ea Your councils methods are not the only way to do things. This was the way that council SE chose to do things due to some serious problems with former camp business managers in the past. He did not try to hide salaries in the camp budget either. So I guess it is time for you to leave that poor horse alone and move on to more important things, as I hope you understand that the "Eamonn Method" is not the only way or necessarily the best way to do things in all cases.

SP & Eagle You both missed the main thrust of my posts as did Eamonn, as a DE in my council camp we had NOTHING to do with program, we were more the business managers who were the only ones authorized to issue checks for needed expenditures for camp, to deal with staff disciplinary problems that the PD could not deal with, handle camp inspections, or any complaints by scouters and scouts. It was not fun and games or "dressing up in togas" for us. We all rotated the position each month so no DE ever had to spend the entire summer in camp. That was the way the SE wanted it and I can assure you none of us were "program freaks", we were up there for just for the reasons I mentioned, nothing else.

Well Ea It must be nice to be in a council that is large and can afford extra expenditures so the DE's do not have to work at camp, and you can monopolize your DE's time all year long, but that is not the way it is in most councils, especially the smaller ones. I suggest you reread my post explaining why the SE in my former council chose to do what he did. We were NOT there to run programs or smooze with the scout leaders that attended, most of our time was spent putting out all the problems that crop up behind the scenes that most volunteers and scouts never knew about or needed to be concerned with. During all the years I worked there no one person or district was ever left feeling that their DE had deserted them, no matter what you may think. Your cavalier attitude does nothing to support your position either, which as one who has been there seems rather weak, inaccurate and self centered.

WWW You have totally misinterpreted my post I agree staff should be paid well, unfortunately most councils are not in a financial position to do so without raising the fees through the roof. No SE is going to allow a temporary camp staff member to make the big money decisions at camp no matter what you think, that is just the reality of how business is done. I am glad the OA in your area is doing well however that does not seem to be the case in most other areas.

WWW "and you would see the day when OA members would be on a list wanting to help out at camp." All I can say to that is what planet are you from dude. The OA has been on a even more rapid decline in active membership than the boy scouts for at least 20 years now, the reason I hear from the boys is that "it is BORING, all we ever do is go work at camp twice a year, the lodge meetings are a waste, and I am tired of playing Indian, it just isn't any fun." So don't blame the camp WWW blame the OA for not keeping pace with the changes of the youth of today. In my council the pros were CD for one reason, only they had the authority to spend the money when needed to fix or resupply the camp when an emergency came up, the SE would not give that authority to any temporary camp staff because of some severe abuses that had occured in prior years. To answer Eamonns objections you do not need three months to plan fall recruitment, events, and FOS if you have a decent district committee in place, and they all do their jobs, none of the districts in my council were ever left feeling abandoned. We met every other week when we would be relieved at camp for a few days so we could do district work. It sounds to me Eamonn you have some real issues with your own committee not your DE. No decent council camp is going to trust a $10 an hour employee with approving an expenditure in the hundreds or thousands of dollars in an emergency, or other serious issues that come up every year at camp, no matter what you may think. You guys really need to get a grip on the reality of the world of summer camp. By the way my current council runs their two camps exactly the same way.

shortridge As a DE I too was the assistant camp director one year and camp director the next. In our council there was a very small one room cabin that the camp director was provided. We were there to handle any problems that might come up, leaving the program director and his staff the freedom to concentrate on just program. We could inneract with the units there, but our main function was to deal with things like running out of supplies, the pool springing a leak, camp inspections, equipment problems, a drunken camp cook, etc. It really worked out well because the program director and his people could devote ALL their time to just their specialities, and the night and morning programs.

moxie I saw one of them on ebay, type in "boy scout 85th anniversary patches" and it was going for one at $20 and one at $55, so I guess I am going to hold onto mine for a while.

Oak All I can say to you is no man or unit is an island but it sounds to me that's what you view yourself as and believe me you are in the minority. Like it or not you and your unit are part of a council that provides services and facilities to all units whether you use them or not. Online training is just for the very basic stuff, the more advanced training can not be done online and you know that. Rechartering online most councils still don't have that ability, but who do you think processes the online charters? Your pack doesn't attend cub summer camp and other camp experiences offered for them, then it sounds like you are depriving your boys of some fun experiences and that is just sad. In all honesty you sound a little out of touch with how the scouting program is supposed to work. You can be as independent as you like, but in the long run all you are doing is depriving your boys of some activities that the pack alone can not provide.

ASM Your last post is so right on the mark. It seems like this priest pedophile issue which the Vatican initially referred to as "a USA only problem" has now revealed itself to be a global issue of much greater proportions than ever thought possible. All catholics have to know that the Vatican has known about this for a long time and tried to keep it hidden, but the truth always seems to find a way into the light. Now every Catholic adult is being looked at by the church as a potential predator. IMO, if the church had taken the proper legal steps and gotten rid all those predatory priests, bishops, and cardinals in the first place then all this checking would have become unnecessary. Of course according to several articles that would mean somewhere between 50-75% of the catholic clergy would have to be dismissed and/or prosecuted.

moxie There were two 85th Anniversary patches released by National and I have one of each I got at my council scout shop in 1995. I have never seen the 90th or 95th ones however.

Basement Yeah I know it seems like DE's and SE's seem to spend all their time asking for money but in all honesty many councils in this recession are fighting just to stay open. If the council closed tommorrow what would happen, no training, no camps, no scout supplies for your unit, no one to get your unit registered and re chartered, no facilities for unit, district or council functions, no one to trouble shoot unit problems beyond the scope of the UC, etc, etc. All that stuff costs money to organize and maintain beyond the abilities of most districts and units. Scouting units do not exsist in isolation but are part of a dynamic on a district, council, and National level. I was a DE for almost five years, got to work at National one summer during that time and learned the inner workings that go on there, and now a volunteer for over 24 years. There are bad professional scouters who have done some real damage to the program, and they do need to be dealt with quickly and decisively, that is one area that National has done a very poor job. I have seen scouting from both sides and the system is far from perfect but without the professional end of scouting the volunteer/unit level program would be much less than it is today.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

I agree with most of what Beavah says. Having your CC who is also your COR really makes it a whole lot easier to deal with these kind of problems and has the added benefit of having your CO actively involved in your unit via the COR. As the CC/COR for my crew the last year plus we had a small problem with one of our adult leaders which the committee was able to deal with quickly and positively to a happy ending. Beav is so right when he says that the committee has to work together as a team otherwise you wind up with seperate factions fighting for power and nothing gets done. You know the old saying "Lead by example" has a lot of significance for the situation being discussed in this thread.

SP The goal of this program is to bring former boy scouts back into scouting as alumni and solicit an FOS donation from them, so I doubt you can count an FOS pack presentation, or parents coming to a pack event as meeting those two requirements nor should you be able to count signing up a den leader for example who was not a former boy scout as meeting that requirement. That's the way I read it on the BSA alumni site.

j hankins If the volunteers in a district choose to recognize their DE for their service that is one thing, but you advocating that DE's should be eligible for awards designed for the volunteer scouter is just plain wrong, not to mention unethical, in spite of what your SE told you. As a former DE you should know better, we received recognition from National, designed for scouting professionals who are doing an outstanding job. So there is no reason to try to horn in on awards designed for the volunteers and the service they supply to the program.

ASM I agree with you 100%, but the catholic church is rarely totally open or honest in these type of matters. To my understanding these are now nationwide rules that the NCCB adopted with the insistence of the Vatican. It really is sad IMO, that the kids and volunteers have to suffer because of the heinous acts of a number of perverted clergymen.

ASM You are quite correct in the reasons the Catholic Church requires all these extra checks, according to some of my priest friends. The sex abuse scandals have left many dioceses in serious financial trouble, many have declared bankruptcy to get out from under all the claims filed against them, Boston, Portland, Los Angeles, Phoenix to name just a few. You also have the recession and contributions are way way down in all churches. I have heard of a Catholic church or two in my area no longer sponsoring scout units because of the liability issues, people and money, and because they can not afford to pay for these fingerprint and background checks the Catholic Church now requires on all their staff and volunteers. If this does become a really obstructive issue my advice is to find another sponsor such as a service club, VFW, Am Legion, or a church, not Catholic, open to reaching their youth.

Well when I went to DE training at National we were told that professional scouting and volunteer scouting are two very distinct and seperate entities within the BSA. We work together to achieve the best quality program for our district, but we each have our own methods in achieving that goal. It was those comments that made me feel that a DE should never try or ask to be given any award created for a volunteer giving their time and talents to the youth. Even if a DE is also a volunteer he/she still should not be eligible for these awards as it sends a wrong message,IMO, to the volunteers.

SP Sorry to disagree with you but this whole scheme is much ado about nothing, except lining the coffers of National, and I think you would be hard pressed to prove otherwise.

I agree with you Beavah, these "fast food" MB mills have no place in the BSA and take away the value and experience for the boy of really earning that award.

I just heard on the news that the two parties are not even close to a long term compromise solution to the budget problem. If no long term agreement gets reached by COB tommorrow (Tues.) then the government will shut down. Isn't the way our elected officials look out for the welfare of its citizenry make you feel so proud (NOT).

It is fairly obvious by now that no party or individual has the answer, it took WW2 to pull us out of the Great Depression and get our industries and businesses moving again. Now we don't really produce much of anything anymore in this country and three wars are dragging our economy even further in the hole. What is worse is there is no historical precedent that even comes close to what we face as a nation. Our legislature is in chaos, our Fed Reserve System close to collapse, and a president in deep denial of much serious trouble our country truly is in. Personally, for a start, I think we should close Congress down for at least six months, send them all home with no pay since they are producing nothing for the people except partisan bickering.

SP There are ways to raise money and ways not to raise money, this type of method is indeed a type of pyramid scheme which you do not seem to understand how it works, and that is no exaggeration either. I would have more respect for National if they just recruited alumni most who would be happy to make a contribution, instead they disguise it as legit by creating a knot award program for basically going out and hustling money for National, and that makes it unethical and invalid by any measure you want to use. National is indeed the upline beneficiary who for the cost of less than $1.00 worth of materials gain a minimum of three contributions. What does that knot really mean anyway, it sure isn't for service to the youth, but for talking two or three other guys into parting with some of their money. Does that really deserve a knot? I just wish National would call it what it truly is and not award a uniform knot which is supposed to represent service to the youth.(This message has been edited by BadenP)(This message has been edited by BadenP)