BadenP

Eng61 You sound just like Chicken Little and the sky is falling in, lol. You miss the whole point of the thread, this kid is in the troop trying to find an alternative to his former life and in MOST troops the adults can easily handle one kid. I think this mother is just overly concerned but without anything substantial to back up her accussations, probably why she closed her accout here right after she opened it. Teenage boys always act tough around each other without it meaning anything every boy and scout leader knows that from personal experience. If your troop is closing its doors to a youth trying to find his way then you are violating the part of the Scout Oath that says "to help other people at ALL times.", just what do you think that really means Eng61? It is bad enough we are dealing with an ever growing number of poorly trained and basically unmotivated, easy chair, boy scout leaders in this era of "Cupcake Scouting" resulting in weak and boring troop programs, and boys dropping out at ever increasing numbers. But to knowingly turn away a boy who WANTS to be a scout because he had some trouble with the law is being a totally irresponsible scout leader. You should really read some of Baden Powell's and Bill Hillcourt's writings about what it means to be a Scoutmaster sometime, Eng61.

shortridge You mention some very good points in your post, and I agree with you. What's next a MB in Oil Refining?

SP From your post it is obvious you have never worked with at risk youth before, it takes time for these kids to learn to again trust an authority figure, it is not an overnight transformation. Your conclusions are also unfounded based on the limited info provided by the OP. As I mentioned in another thread my first troop as an ASM was a group of high risk minority inner city LA youth and the first order of business we had to establish with this group was trust and respect, for authority and each other. It took a while but it finally came together. For the boy in this post the BSA may be the link to turn him around, to help him develop a sense of self worth, and to give him his first real experience with successfully accomplishing a set of goals he sets for himself. What he needs right now is guidance and direction, not a series of suspensions. What kind of archaic disiplinary rules are you using in your troop anyway?

I think Eagle707 said it best BSAMom, you somehow gained access to confidential court information that you had no right to, a minors records are sealed. The boy is making an attempt to change which given his supposed past will take time. Unless he does something wrong in the troop what he really needs now is some support and guidance to prove to him there are alternatives in life. Case in point, an aquaintance of mine in high school was the leader of one of the toughest gangs around, getting drunk, smashing heads, etc. his probation officer took an interest in him and got him on the right course. As a result he became a police officer, went to law school and today is a well respected judge. He now goes to high schools and talks to kids about making the right choices in life. Now imagine if early on someone was telling everyone what a rotten person he was as he started out trying to change his life. From your story this kid is on the beginning of his journey to a new life, give him the benefit of the doubt and time to see if the BSA helps him straighten his life out.

Looks to me to be an interesting piece however as usual National has not thought out the details very well. The main problem I have with this new program is there has been no effort to relate it to its application to scoutings relationship with the outdoors. The BSA is NOT supposed to be a science camp or high tech training program and yet this is another attempt by National to move scouting away from its outdoor emphasis, which is something the CSE continues to push and push, and turn scouting into more of a classroom oriented program. The other problem is the sponsor Exxon Mobil who remains one of the WORLDS largest polluters of our oceans and environment, does anyone else see the irony in all this?

moosetracker Read his last post, there is plenty of criticism there. As far as forgiving goes, he is not a "deeply hurt individual" MT rather he screwed up and didn't get the job done for his Eagle when he was a youth. Now 30 years later he feels he is still OWED the Eagle from the BSA, not by any stretch of the imagination is that true. You can feel sorry for him all you want, but he doesn't deserve it. Deceit has its own reward and he has reaped what he has sown.

OGE While not blaming the 70's scouting program entirely it was definitely a huge contributor to the ongoing errosion of the outdoor program of the BSA. I disagree with you entirely about people not wanting to camp anymore, the state and federal parks were packed this past week, I know I got the last site for our crew in a 200 mile radius, most of the parks in my areaare on a 3 month or more waiting list. Even if it were true that not as many people in our society camp anymore why should that force a overhaul of the boy scout outdoor program? Look in the 70's the BSA bowed to public whim to make scouting have a more urban emphasis for the inner city kids and we all know the disaster that resulted and forty years later National still is trying to find a new direction to recovery. The BSA was founded as an organization with the main emphasis on outdoor skills and adventure, along with citizenship and leadership, the more we continue to get further away from that emphasis the more we continue to lose in membership in ever increasing numbers. Kudu's prediction of "cupcake scouting" is alive and well in the BSA today, the result has been the boys get bored from a lack of any real fun or challenges, they get bored and leave. I know this for a fact because there are a dozen of these bored youth who quit boy scouts and are now in my crew, and you know what they are thriving. Anytime you gut a program at its core it never is the same again, and that is what has happened to the boy scout program, which IMO, is a shell of what it once was. National hasn't got a clue how to fix the problem, especially with a CSE who believes camping and the outdoors are not an important part of scouting anymore.

momof2cubs This was not a "mistake" at all but an outright misrepresentation of the facts or more succintly outright lying to this forum. Is this the kind of person you want providing your kids with guidance in scouts, I rather doubt it. Besides this guy got caught in his own lies and beat it out of here, and the laughable part is that he truly believes he deserves to be awarded an Eagle, what a tangled web we weave.

bnelon I have to say your highly sanctimonius and highly innaccurate post was so absurd it was laughable,it also lacked any real credibility. Look most scout leaders are not always trying to find ways to circumvent BSA rules, but trying to find ways to deliver a quality program to their youth. Most scout leaders are honest honorable people, and those that are not exsist in every aspect of our society and usually spoil things for the greater number. So get off your high horse already because you sound like a broken record.

Afscout All I can say is you got a heck of a lot of nerve critizing others after lying to everyone here. Your dishonesty tells me you are not fit to be a scout leader or an example for our youth. Since you are so dishonest you can always buy an old Eagle badge on Ebay and continue to perpetuate your dishonesty. Man you really are a head case.

Thunderfox No one here is talking about subverting any rules and your accusations are unfounded and untrue. The controversy as to allowing parents to observe the ordeal and ceremonies is one of fairly recent origin and one of great concern to every OA leader and member. Boy Scouts is partly about teaching a boy how to grow into a man who doesn't need mommy and daddy going every place with them. The OA has lost much of its appeal, mystery, and prestige because of things just like this. OA lodges are in the same downward spiral in numbers as troops and scouts are for a reason. Our friend Kudu calls it "cupcake scouting" where the boys are no longer challenged and their scouting experience is little more than MB and Rank mills where QUANTITY far exceeds any quality program. Believe it or not people like yourself who blindly follow whatever is in print and never question the potential harm something may be causing the program are one of the main reasons for the continuing demise of the Boy Scout program. You really need to see the forest from the trees in order to help try making scouting a better program, not allow it to become weaker.

What a bunch of trivalizing and ludicrous nonsense over something so unimportant and quite frankly unnecessary. This is for Tenderfoot, not Eagle, the first rank of boy scouts and you guys are worried about who is on the BOR, personally I think there should be no BOR until at least 1st Class or higher. As who should be on it, any competent adult leader or committee member meets the bill, and it wouldn't hurt to have his SPL and/or PL sitting on it either since they know the boy and his skills better than anyone else. Quote the procedure book all you want but there is the intelligent/logical way to do something or just throwing together whatever you can to meet some ridiculous BSA policy. Unfortunately the second choice seems to be the method of choice here.

As far as the race card is concerned why is it that in the BSA we still have all black troops or all hispanic troops in what is supposed to be a totally intergrated society? Why does the BSA still have the stigma of being an organization only for WHITE middle and upper middle class boys? eagle 92 don't kid yourself the CSE truly does think hispanics should have their own program since "they want to do all activities as a family." Even though as others have pointed out those kids love to camp just like any other, and in the west and southwest many troops are fully integrated with hispanic youth. So IMHO this shoots down the CSE's argument once and for all. My first experience as an ASM was with a dirt poor inner city troop in Los Angeles, which was 40% black, 40% hispanic, and 20% white and asian. These were some of the toughest boys you would ever want to meet, and in the beginning there were several serious fights at troop meetings. Then we went on our first campout and the boys had to learn to work as a team in order to eat and make it as a troop in the outdoors, we adults used the BadenPowell philosophy of letting the boys sort things out for themselves and it worked. Well after that weekend the fights stopped, the boys got excited about moving up the ranks and going on more camping trips, even the hardcore ones. The boys knew what was expected of them and they lived up to and exceeded those expectations. That troop is still going strong today with a lot of community support and was truly one of the most satisfying scouting experiences of my life.

Tahawk I am glad you are trying to make things better in your area. Even if American scouting never got it totally right from the beginning as you state in your post I don't think that anyone would disagree that 1910-1970 were truly the golden moments for the BSA. Yes there are still a group of troops out there trying to do all they can to preserve "traditional scouting" but as those troop leaders are aging out the troops are falling into the modern scouting model or as Kudu puts it "cupcake scouting". In my Venturing crew we have always emphasized the outdoor skills and experiences over everything else and the crew continues to grow and thrive. The boy scouts wanting to join our crew, most are Star, Life, and Eagle, have lacked enough outdoor skills and experience to handle many of our outings and have to be given more in depth training before they are even allowed to go on the more demanding trips. To me it goes to show just how badly the current boy scout outdoor program has erroded over time. On a brighter note my district has recently asked if our crew members, youth and adults, would be willing to put on a more advanced outdoor training course for the scouts and scout leaders than is currently being offered. All the crew agreed it would be fun to do and it will be presented late this summer-early fall. We will have a large group in attendance for both the youth and adult sessions, and I have been asked by the SE if he and his DE's could sit in, so it is gonna be fun. As an added note we will be incorporating both BP's and Hillcourt's material from their books in the training.

Kudu & Tahawk While your debate has been interesting it has now deterioated into a debate of minutia. Look I think we all agree that the Boy Scout program has lost much of what made it a great program prior to the urban scouting fiasco of the 1970's. Personally I do not see the program ever going back to that outdoor skill and experience emphasis prior to the 70's and that is where and why the boy scout program is in such a downward spiral in membership and troop numbers. If National does not reinstate the outdoor emphasis back into the program and soon it will not matter which book you quote or what BP really meant because traditional scouting will be lost forever. Eamonn was right in his post stating that boy scout leaders are NOT getting the outdoor training they need to pull off a successful troop program and as a result we now have a generation of armchair scoutmasters who have little interest in the outdoors and as a result are producing scouts with the same lack of interest who are being fast tracked to Eagle with troop programs which are little more than Eagle and MB mills, starting with that assinine program FCFY= First Class First Year. It is extremely rare to find a boy led troop anymore, and IMO that is the real finale to any concept of "traditional scouting".

SP I think you missed it a bit, a CC is like a CEO of a business whose job it is to make sure all the other committee members are doing their jobs and that all the pieces/resources are there for the unit leaders to deliver a quality program to the youth. The CC coordinates with the COR when necessary to keep them assessed of what and how the unit is doing. As the COR/CC for my venturing crew our committee works like a well oiled machine helping each other to make sure the crew advisors have what they need to go on all the activities the crew does each year. It is a team effort and the CC is the team leader.

If the scout leaders do not like to camp then quite frankly they should not be troop leaders and the committee and COR should call for their resignations immediately. The last thing any troop needs these days are adults who are a bunch of deadwood pansies. Boy scout troops and boys scouts are dropping in numbers faster than any other BSA program. With a troop like this it is easy to understand why.

ctbailey While I agree with your post the honest truth is in most districts you would be hard pressed to even find an active UC anymore. Many of those still around lack any real diplomatic skills to handle this type of situation since they tend to be crusty older gents who love to tell the unit what to do rather then listen to the entire situation.

Frank Your argument is not only untrue but just plain foolish. Like most of your attacks you just want to fight and offer no credible support for your argument nor do you have even a basic understanding of what I was talking about in my posts. Then again you have been out of active scouting for so many many years now you have no curent experience with any phase of the current scouting program. I strongly suggest you learn to read a persons entire post and try to grasp its meaning, the best you are able, instead of pulling one sentence out of context, which you constantly do, and attack it. All I can say I am grateful you are not influencing any youth anymore, because you are truly out of touch with scouting and probably a lot else.

Frank You missed the whole point once again. In boy scout troops that do not require the official pants are the boys still identified as scouts with their shirts, neckers and hats, as much as those troops who wear the official pants? You bet they are, so the whole argument becomes moot. For those troops who want to be in full uniform more power to them, but it does not make them better scouts or make their program a better one. Over 3/4 of cub packs do not require official pants and 1/2 to 2/3 of the troops do not require the official pants in the four councils I have been part of over the years. In spite of what you may think a full uniform does not make a troop program a better one, neither does it make their program a more "useful" one. That has been true since the beginning of scouting through the Depression and WWII when many boy scouts had partial to no uniform because of the poverty that exsisted. The country has now been in a major recession/depression for over 3 years now, in many households one or both of the parents are unemployed, money is tighter than it has ever been and you complain about full uniforms being the norm, you really need to get a grip on reality. Frank, your Norman Rockwell vision of boy scouts has never ever been a reality but more of an ideal.

What is more important wearing half the uniform or giving the boys a quality program where they learn a variety of useful outdoor skills, good citizenship, learn how to be a leader, having unique adventures, and most important having a great time in the process? The answer is quite clear and IMHO to borrow a phrase from the Brits all you uniform police can just "bugger off". If certain of you are so worried about full uniforms then I wonder as to the real focus and quality of your program. I just got back from a week long large ship cruise in the Carribbean with my Venturing crew, sailing in those calm waters, enjoying the sunsets and sunrises, eating freshly caught fish and forgetting about all the trivial stuff going on in the world and the petty arguments that go on in here. It gives you a whole new perspective on life and what is important or not. I highly recommend it to all of you who need to get a new lease on life, and to stop worrying about the half or full uniform cause in the greater scheme of things it is a trivial debate at best. Peace.

I really do think that Lisabob's post speaks volumes as to what is truly wrong with these Eagle Camp/MB mills. They are aimed at parents wanting to have their kid get the Eagle ASAP, and appeal to kids who really do not want to put any real effort into getting the Eagle. These are the same parents and kids who give little to nothing to the troop in the process, and as Lisabob said disappear from scouting as soon as they get the award. This fast food approach to scouting as a whole in my mind is one of the most serious reasons scouting is in the decline that it is today. The sad part is that this could all be corrected fairly easily with a CSE and National staff with a vision to restore the former glory of the program. However money and numbers is all that really matters to them.

The problem with the paranoia of people like scoutfish is that it causes an unnecessary panic among the people. Look not every Muslim is out there planning to do harm to the US almost all of them just want to live in a country not in a constant state of war. The TSA patdown is a joke, those individuals are mostly undereducated,and poorly trained group who try to give the illusion of safety at airports. However of tests the agency gives them periodically to identify a potential security risk they fail 95% of the time. The truth is we can never be completely safe from those crazed few bent on harming the USA. It is time for more rational thought to prevail and for better electronic security methods to be developed so our airports will stop looking and feeling like police states.

Here I go out on the line once again! IMHO any scoutmaster who thinks that it is perfectly fine for their scouts to spend their entire time at camp earning 5-6-7 MB's and doing nothing else is not only NOT looking out for the best interests of their boys but are just too dam* lazy to do their jobs. Camp is not a time for the adults to sit around on their asses swilling down coffee and coke all day long, as I have seen countless times. Look earning a couple, maybe even three basic MB's is just fine but not 10-12. The sloveness of most scout camp programs today comes from lazy council execs who only care about the money and little else, and the continuing disturbing statements from the CSE stating camping is just not that important anymore. Have you noticed the sharp increase we have in 300 lb scout leaders,and 200 lb plus scouts, no wonder the SM's like MB camps it takes all their energy just to go to and from the mess tent. If we current scouters continue not to speak out against these mickey mouse programs the boy scout program will deterioate into a pathetic excuse of a program. The crew had to turn down 2 members of a nearby troop the other day, they were both so overly obese and constantly out of breath one of the AA's who is also an MD told them outright they would not be able to handle the physicality of the crew program. He suggested a local weight loss clinic and if they could get back in shape we would reconsider. Time to eliminate these badge mills and bring back a more traditional style of scouting once and for all.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

eagle 77 Well if that is the case then the boy scout program has indeed taken that first big step off the cliff to oblivion. Troop and council programs have finally erroded into badge factory classrooms and we just slide them through to Eagle. I am so glad I am no longer a SM I couldn't bear to watch boy scouts on this self destructive path. To you SM's still out there who are trying to provide a quality traditional troop program my hat is off to you all, your boys will remember it all through their lives.