BadenP

evil I expect that sooner or later you will be getting a letter from the BSA's legal department telling you to take down the group or face litigation. I agree with others here a political election is no place to promote Eagle Scout support, it violates BSA policies and it is not what we train the boys about the election process. IMO, your group just shows poor judgement and bad taste.

Blanc If you had read my prior posts you would know the public spectacle I was referring to was concerning the troop and local community this kid lives in the schools he attends if this became public odds are the kid and his family would have to move away. The other concern is how these so called scout leaders are dealt with, others here have suggested that their actions be made public and then of course the reason why they did it would also become public. This comes down do what is best for the boy and his welfare, if his parents truly care for him they would want this handled as discreetly as possible. I never referred to this forum, and as we have seen in another thread in here recently an article was posted about a young man being awarded his Eagle Scout with pictures and the OP then posted severe negative allegations about the boy. Eamonn took care of it but not before many people had read the thread and formed and posted their own conclusions.

Since this scumbag loved to quote scriptures during his trial to justify raping 12-15 year old girls I think his punishment should also be of biblical proportions. Let each of the girls he raped over the years be given a large stone, Jeffs put into a pit, and each of them in turn extract the justice due to them and stone this pervert into oblivion. Life in prison with a possibility for parole is not the kind of justice this lousy excuse for a human being deserves. He gave his victims no mercy so why should the court.

It amazes me how many posters here have missed the point entirely. What has happened to this boy is tragic to say the least but it is NOT meant to be A platform to create a public outcry against ill treatment of gays or bisexuals by a handful of ignorant scout leaders who should have known better. Using this boy's dilema in any type of public way to demand these leaders be disciplined, that should be handled privately, solely, quickly, and discreetly by the CO and SE. Publicly talking about this boy's sexuality, this would only result in this boy being scarred emotionally for life, chastised by his peers, and sending him into a socially isolating mindset, not to mention possible suicidal thoughts. The ONLY thing that is important here is the boy and his welfare NOTHING else. Making this into a public spectacle is not only irresponsible it is absolutely ludicrous.

Eng61 I never said keep it in the family so please stop misquoting me. Since in a previous thread you admitted to having little experience with troubled youth or a desire to ever do so I respectively suggest your scenario and suggestions offered here are way off base and unrealistic at best, and at worst will potentially do much harm to the teen involved.

Tampa You are so right about Pioneering, my venturing crew looks forward every year to the Back to Basics campout with pioneering, tracking, signaling, dutch oven cooking, and some wilderness survival skills to name a few. No electronics, stoves, fancy tents etc. and the teens love it, in fact it is one of our best recruiting events every year. I think teens would love to have more experiences with these so called "outdated skills" if given more opportunities.

qwazse I really think we are pretty much in agreement on this issue. I was pointing out that the method does not always match the reality. That is why we started our own district version of VOA, council didn't have one and was not even interested until our district model became very popular. In fact we even got crews outside our district asking to participate, and now the SE comes and asks, almost begging us to start a council wide VOA. Reading the leaders manual is helpful and multiple crew activities are always great but there are always those crews, like the civil war reinactors crew and the veterinary tech crew who would rather just do their own thing and that's okay too. In Venturing one model does not fit all crews and that is part of the flexibility of the program. Crews are not packs or troops wearing the same uniforms and following the same or similiar programs, and they should never be run like they are the same.

shortridge Baseless and empty retorts are a sign that one has no valid basis for their argument, and you do that so well and often. There are certain topics where you may not need all the facts to make a judgement, however this one is not one of them. shortridge, there are times when I even agree with you, however the truth is in life we do not always agree with anyone all of the time.

Ann You can also use the smaller prescription plastic containers, they are the right size have a snap top, and with some fancy decoration, leather/plastic lace, and a good craft glue will make a great necker slide.

shortridge You are comparing apples to oranges, this is not about a debate of an aspect of the scout program, it is about a boys life his reputation and future and a group of overzealous scout leaders who by their actions crossed the line. We do not have all the facts and some are passing judgement. shortridge, that would be like if I said you were a wife beater because someone told me you were and we all here debated that issue, and passed judgement on you. Your argument is as pathetically weak as your premise, and is plainly untrue!(This message has been edited by BadenP)

qwasze Quoting a passage from the leaders handbook does not make it so. In my council there is no TLC or VOA, we Advisors created a district wide created our own VOA and have organized our own joint outings and other activities. The SE came to me the other day and asked if we would like to organize a council wide VOA and I told him point blank on two conditions, the council will back it 100% with use of council facilities when needed,and that the other districts get their crews organized with their DE's help first before we go full bore into a council wide program. He agreed. From my contacts in other councils Venturing is hitting roadblocks because of a lack of support by council or crews not caring to do joint activities. Qwasze, a crew can operate just fine on its own if it needs to, that was the way the program was set up, but it is always better and more fun to have multiple crew activities. However packs, troops, and crews can all work independently with a few district events thrown in for a change of pace. A crew president does not have to or required to participate in a VOA or TLC, especially if a council doesn't even have one, or a crew wants to operate independently.

dkurt Your last post makes the point of this entire thread, the Advancement system of the boy scouts allows these one time wonder scouts to pass through without ever becoming at least reasonably competent in the skills, a chance to use them in the field ever again and so they lose all they have learned and that is where the program has failed the boys. Too many troops have limited outdoor camping or other outdoor experiences these days due largely to the fact many troop adult leaders have limited training,outdoor skills and experience. This in turn has created much lower expectations in the boys advancement skills, and in the quality of skill training they receive, which in essence is the "dumbing down" of the boy scout program. It is this lack of desire, skill, or training, especially of the newer boy scout leaders, for going beyond the handbook that has led to this decline.

Wow, now we have scoutmom demanding this boy be subjected to an Inquistion and tossed out of scouting even though this is all rumor and no boy in the troop has been approached or attacked by the accused. Crew21 stating that "the professional scouters who are trained to deal with this, and commissioners should be brought in to decide", I hate to tell you Crew but NO professional scouter or commissioner is trained to deal with this kind of situation and their philosophy is usually to quote Star Trek "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one." I really sense an atmosphere here among many of the posters of fear, anger, and mob mentality justice. We are all third parties here with very limited information given by the OP from his point of view and are NOT in any position to give any kind of sound advice based on the limited facts presented. So before you sentence this boy to burned at the stake take a deep breath and try to view this situation from all angles instead of just with your emotions.

Eng61 Sorry but you don't know what you are talking about. The adults in this situation should be dealt with quickly and decisively and not broadcast throughout the troop, the town and the local news as the result will be devastating both psychologically and socially for the boy. The boy will be made into a poster boy for abused kids and the whole thing will be blown up way out of proportion which could likely lead the teen to considering suicide, I have seen it happen in a similiar case years ago. You want to villianize these adults responsible fine, but the boys identity needs to be protected at all costs which is part of child protection. Your soapbox stance in this situation does absolutely NOTHING to protect the boy and put this nightmare behind him, in fact it does the complete opposite. Knee jerk reactions are not what is needed at this time.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

qwasze As far as "a presentation at a crew meeting" that refers to any meeting including your own crew, you need to refer to the Leaders Manual for a more complete explanation. In many councils there are district and council Venturing social events, outings, and trainings but they are supplemental to the crews own program, not required. I agree that a camp staff Venturing crew lasting three months during the summer may not be a "traditional" crew, but if they are indeed doing service projects for the camp and meeting as a crew during that time they are as valid as any other crew for that period of time.

Yea I have to agree with most of the posters here, there is never a reason to have an Inquistion of a boy like that under any circumstances, especially when they have NO evidence of any kind that the rumor is even true. As far as going to the SE & IH and having these leaders thrown out of scouting while it is appropriate the publicity it may cause could result in a very embarrassing situation for the boy. To be brutally honest the SE would be more concerned with losing a unit than the welfare of the boy in this situation. In any case the bigger stink that is raised the more likely it is that this issue would be made public, and that could do even worse damage than has already been done to the boy. My suggestion is that the CO quietly get the SM to step down or tell him they will remove him , and the ASM's be told what they did was wrong and probably illegal, as they may have been forced into this meeting by the SM, then give them the option to step down or as a group apologize to the boy and offer to make things right. The more private this is kept the better off the boy will be. It is really sad IMO that there are scout leaders like this who pledge to help kids and live by the scout oath and law but in reality are little better than vigilantes and bullys.

Sctdad Your experience with Cub resident camp sounds all too typical. Since it is held in most councils at the end of the summer, the staff is or getting pretty burnt out,some of them go home early, supplies run low because the cook doesn't get portion control and the guys at the end get the leftovers. Sounds like the staff/council wasn't well organized, or well trained because there is never any excuse to run out of food, maybe one item, but there should always be a backup replacement. As a former scout camp director for two years in a row I have seen and experienced all the ups and downs that can occur, but if you are well organized the scouts should never have to know or experience any of them.

Well said Beavah!! Eamonn, you are so right about what you said of leaders who expect more of their boys, as you did. The problem today is most scoutmasters look at the requirements and that is as far as they go, never taking the boys to the next level, because they teach to the book and that is all. One could argue then if that's what National expects then why should they go any further. As another poster said with todays youth (and adults) it is all about instant gratification, everyone expects to be rewarded whether they put in much effort or not. This seems to be the prevailing attitude in the BSA today, and National continues to bend to this mindset. The result is a much devalued program and rank advancement that doesn't mean much anymore.

Ea "Dumbed down" does not refer to the boys rather the way the boy scout program has been simplified, made easier so the boys can now rapidly excel through the ranks without mastering any real skills or knowledge. Just compare the requirements in the boy scout handbooks of the 1950's, 1960's, 1970's etc right up to the latest handbook and it is all there in black and white, the boy scout rank requirements have indeed been "dumbed down" over the decades. The question is why has National felt this was even necessary, and why have the outdoor skills been continually reduced over the years?

jts What a sanctimonius hypocrite you truly are. The "sniping" began and was continued by YOU for my disagreeing with one thing you had mentioned in another thread. You have been sniping at several other posters here as well for a while. Now you sit on your high horse crying feel sorry for me, what a crock. You truly are a complete waste of my time so I for one am through with you.

jts No, once again you confuse Quantity with Quality. More is not always better and your stats prove it must be a very easy journey to Eagle in your troop that almost all your boys receive the award. I still say any troop with 95% Eagles is doing a half hearted, substandard, low expectation, mill oriented program that does not truly meet BSA minimum standards. Then it is all about the quality of the troop leadership or lack thereof isn't it jts.

jts The fact you state that 95% of your 1st Class boys makes Eagle, IMO, is a serious indicator your troop is indeed an Eagle mill, that percentage is way too high above the National average. I would seriously question your methodology, quality of program being delivered, the competency of your Eagles skills and knowledge. This scenario sounds like you are just pushing them through, seriously fudging on the requirements, and running a "classroom" troop.

OGE I agree with you if a boy can not start a fire or tie required knots that it is the fault of the troop leadership, not National. What IS Nationals fault is what I, Kudu and many others in this forum have been harping on for a long time now, mainly the movement by National away from the traditional outdoor program of the BSA as seen in the modifications of both adult and youth training, especially Wood Badge, NYLT, and even in SM Basic where the major emphasis is on management over planning and implementing an exciting outdoor program. We have CSE Mazzucca saying over and over again that camping and the outdoors is not that important anymore and should no longer be the main emphasis for the boy scout program. Thank goodness there are still those scout leaders out there trying to preserve these outdoor traditions with their troops before National eliminates them completely from the program. The facts are that overall troops are doing less and less camping, high adventure, backpacking, and other outdoor activities than ever before. Why? because scout leader training no longer emphasizes it, scout leaders get virtually no outdoor skills training, unless they go to a private organization. Troops have become more badge oriented classroom style meetings because this is what the new scout leaders are being taught is the "norm". And that IS Nationals fault!!!

OMG, a 12 hour round trip just to say hi to lil johnny at camp, what a bunch of pathetic parents. Here is yet another example of the new "cupcake scouting program" in all its glory, lol. Look these kids have cells to call home in their free time if they are feeling lonely, which is yet another reason why cells should not be allowed at camp, IMO, except for emergencies. All I can say is I hope the camp staff were firm with these parents making sure they understood that this behavior is unacceptable and disrupts the camp program for the boys. Sad, sad, sad.

As Eamonn so aptly stated, running and maintaining a camp is a very expensive proposition, which few councils can really afford to do in this day of reduced contributions, rising costs, and a rotten economy. Maybe it is time for a reality check and the council camp becomes a thing of the past. Councils with multiple camps could consolidate into one megacamp, or maybe a regional camp as was suggested. The bottom line is that most SE's do a lousy job administrating their councils finances and the camp is usually the first to go when a financial crisis occurs. About 12 years ago I was visiting the area where I was a DE, and sadly watched the council camp which was over 75 years old, being demolished, since it was sold to pay the councils massive debt. Over 400 scouters, former scouters, and scouts showed up to witness the event, most all were in uniform, but not one of the scouting pro's had the guts to show their face. Each of us were able to take home with us a small momento of the camp. Less than two years later National closed down the council for fiscal mismanagement and merged the districts with another council fifty miles to the south.