BadenP

SR540 In response to your post I would not consider you to be a pseudo Christian, in fact last time I checked the Baptists were always welcoming and friendly to new people interested in their denomination, and I have personally worked with some very nice Baptist ministers in programs designed to help inner city at risk youth. SP- Now who is the pot calling the kettle black? Look I could care less whether or not your church or pack or the BSA wants to work with or partner with the AHG, more power to you. IMO the AHG and the BSA are not a good match because of some of the AHG positions and exclusions. if Mazzucca and BSA National want to partner with AHG that is their decision, not yours or mine. So it would be nice to end this barrage of insults back and forth, as I am finished with commenting on this topic. I will just focus my energies on my venturing crew and you on your pack, because that is really what is the most important.

AHGMom It may say respect the beliefs of others it is just that they will not let them join AHG, in my book that is total disrespect. I would like them to print the truth about who they will let join and who will they not let join AHG. "Christian" is a broad generic term covering a wide range of denominations and beliefs, not all of whom could join the AHG. SR540 Universal Unitarians do not consider themselves to be Christian but you should know that already, so your comment to me was not only in poor taste but totally irrelevant. I am an Ordained Christian Minister not UU who do not even use the terms Minister or Reverend regarding their leadership. Maybe you are the one who needs to do more research before spouting off.

scoutingagain The GSUSA patterned their program much closer to the Girl Guides of Great Britian than the BSA did to Baden Powells Boy Scout program. One big difference was the emphasis in the BSA on religion and "a scout is reverent" which is not emphasized very much in any of these programs, except the BSA. BP and his wife wanted to have the British boy scouts and Girl guides totally open to all youth and they knew any religious requirements or emphasis would cause division and bitterness in their organizations. While the GSUSA has decided to closely follow the Girl Guides program and open it to all youth without any religious emphasis. The BSA on the other hand early on started to have alliances with Christian organizations including the YMCA, LDS, etc, and they added "Reverent" into the scout law, unlike BP's group. You may not know this but up through the 1960's the Catholic Church did not sponsor the BSA and told their membership that the BSA was to be avoided since they required the boys to be away on Sundays camping and missing mass, which is a mortal sin, and they forced the boys to participate in ecumenical services, also a sin. As a boy I was raised Catholic and was a member of a troop sponsored by my school and the priest used to give my folks a bad time for allowing me to join such "a corrupting organization". As an ordained minister myself I can tell you that sometimes in a group of mixed faiths religion can be a very divisive thing. This AHG affiliation is just another example of pulling people apart rather than bringing them together.

A UC's job is to make sure units are running smoothly, help them get through the rechartering process, and help with clarifying BSA policies and procedures. They are an extension of the council to each unit. First and foremost they are guests to the unit, usually uninvited, and that always create an immediate tension among the unit leaders. To tell or demand that the unit leaders allow him/her to conduct a uniform inspection is a surefire disaster in the making, they are NOT uniform police nor should they ever want to be.

Rooster You have seen it on their website, read it in their literature, and have had personal experience with a priest and bishop who have formally withdrawn all their ties with AHG in that diocese for their racist, elitist, and exclusionary beliefs and policies. This is not a witch hunt but a reality check for those who have fallen victim to AHG propaganda. Know what you are arguing about. I am betting none of you AHG supporters have actually read their adult leaders manual or their organizations mission and beliefs statements, I have and did not like what I read. It does NOT matter if you see their meetings as harmless fun what matters is the philosophy of the organization itself which is plainly racist and elitist, like it or not.

BDPT You saw some of the AHG's screwed up version of Christianity firsthand on their own website concerning leaders must be US Citizens and you immediately rush to their defense saying "I am sure they will fix that soon", when in fact that is exactly what they believe. You are presented with facts that conflict with your own but you still defend it. That is how cults indoctrinate new members, using the old razzle dazzle or bait and switch to confuse people as to their true beliefs and purpose. Now you have fallen for it much like SP and AHG Mom and I truly feel sorry for all of you.

SP One of your former council SE's was transferred to the council, I used to be a DE in, because of some serious misappropriation of Chief Seattle council funds, and instead of being fired was demoted to an SE position with this much smaller council. I actually met and talked with him on one of my visits to that council, and he went on and on about what a great job he did as the SE of Chief Seattle Council, I had to bite my lip rather than tell him what I had been told. Well, in just two years after his demotion he managed to put his new council into bankruptcy, sold off all the council assets including the camp. National had to move in and merge that council with one 50 miles south. All the long time district and council volunteers were dismissed, all the paid staff were let go with no option for transfer, and the number of scouting units and scouts dropped 75%. All because of the actions and incompetence of one person, an SE with over 20 years of so called experience. Isn't professional scouting an honorable and noble profession? Well at one time it truly was, not so anymore.

AHG/BSA Mom It is not that AHG claims to be Christian but that their doctrines/dogmas/interpretations are NOT truly Christian but more of a cult like isolationist, exclusive, and morally irreprehensible IMO. The Holy Ghost Church in W.VA dances with rattlesnakes during their services, many members have been bitten and come close to death, some have died from the bites, yet they believe they are truly Christian but no one with any common sense would believe that they were much more than a small isolated cult. AHG has their own peculiar bent on what Christianity is allowing for their isolationist and exclusive teachings which by themselves are truly a FALSE Christianity and puts them into the category of a cult. SP- your understanding of the AHG is as mixed up as your understanding of Catholicism. Go ahead and believe all the false nonsense you have been spreading in this thread, I really could care less. Someday you will see the truth for yourself and it will set you free, until then your attacks are good for a laugh and not much else.

I am with G Close on this one, the original post smells like the work of a troll. Too many things wrong all at once, a bit of creative writing if you ask me. However the responses were all good and spot on.

SP Of the three SE's I worked for as a DE all three had been married and divorced 2 or 3 times, and as far as the other DE's in my council all but two wound up either calling off a wedding or getting a divorce. The reason IMO is that councils are cutting back on personnel and DE's are expected to do a lot more money raising, unit creation, working at camps, and dealing with all the problems of one or more districts. It is not uncommon for a DE to put in an 80 hour week, including most weekends, on a regular basis. That is why a new DE who is married better understand what they are getting into before accepting the position. Many councils require their DE's to live within the district they serve, this often results getting approached by unit leaders at restaraunts, grocery stores, etc to tell you their problems with their unit or council personnel, it is all part of the job. As much as I enjoyed many parts of being a DE after 4 years and 10 months it just became too much and I left.

I think the Whaling MB may have a rough time with Requirement 6 "In obtaining this MB the scout must personally wind up with either a peg leg or a hook hand in place of one of his own."

To all you Pro AHG Scouters I just finished the GSUSA Centinnel book, which by the way was much better organized and better written than the BSA 100 year book, and it really hit home the point just how much we in the BSA truly share and have in common with the GSUSA. Just because they have made some program changes or some local changes some of you do not like doesn't mean we toss the whole organization aside and start pairing up with some radical evangelizing Christian group masquerading as a "girl scouting type of program". Like it or not the AHG's main goal/purpose is to promote their own exclusionary and elitist brand of Christianity to young girls. AHG's style of Pseudo-Christianity is CONTRARY to the teachings of Jesus and IMO sets a dangerous precedent if the BSA truly forms ANY kind of alliance with them. There are some Catholic posters here who believe that since the Catholic Church has allied with the AHG that it gives them credibility. In reality I feel in time even the Catholic Church hierarchy will see the AHG for what it truly is and break all ties with them. The National BSA, especially CSE Mazzuca, really needs to do a much closer investigation of what the AHG truly is and what they believe before entering into any formal agreement with them.

j good As I suggested go ahead using BSA councils who are hiring, look up those council's websites and email the SE with your resume telling him you would love to work for him and why you are a good candidate. National will NOT blackball you at all, and probably congratulate you for your determinism. After all National would not put those openings on their website if they didn't want prospective candidates to apply for the positions. If you are married with children though I would caution you to investigate to see how much time you will spend away from them, I can tell you from my own experience it is a lot and will cause a big strain on any marriage. Also plan on moving every 3-5 years to a new council, which is S.O.P. in the BSA.

qwasze If I thought that AHG leaders would even go to WB let alone talking about interfaith services and religious inclusiveness I would be very open to that exchange, but I do not think that they truly are or ever will be. That is why I am so opposed to this affiliation. As far as Venture vs Venturing Crew, there are more important battles to fight, lol.

j good Used to be on the National BSA website there was a section that listed DE positions available with the councils SE's email included, that was taken off shortly after Mazzucca became CSE. Now it looks like you can no longer be proactive officially, I would suggest you pick a few councils that you would really like to work for, go to their websites, and send them a quick email, to the SE, and include your resume as an attachment. If you wait for National to do anything for you it may be quite a long time

Since this is yet another "AHG only propaganda release" I would like to see an official BSA statement, that verifies these claims. AHG leaders at WB?, here comes yet another rewrite of the curriculum, and probably sitting round the campfire singing Kumbaya before you go to bed each night. Oh well there goes the neighborhood. There was sound logic when the founding fathers insisted on the seperation of Church and State. I see nothing worthwhile or beneficial for the BSA in aligning with the AHG. I do see many more troubles for the BSA if it does choose to formally align itself with the AHG and its exclusionary and elitist policies.

Rooster I did not infer anything about your relationship with God in my post. The truth is anyones relationship to God is solely between themselves and God, and is nobody elses business. However that relationship should never be used as a "look at me I know I am right but I don't know about you" attitude against others beliefs. That is what I don't like about AHG they promote their own idea of what Christianity is supposed to be. Jesus in his ministry was all inclusive he healed any who came to him pagan, Jew, Samaritan. He never created a doctrine or a specific church or hierarchy that was not his doing but mans who took his message and created their seperate institutions of what they thought Jesus taught. If you really understood the message of Jesus you would know that a true Christian can NOT be exclusive, elitist, predjudice, or superior to anyone else. To be a true Christian is not easy or to just believe a cliche simplistic statement, it involves so much more. AHG does not meet these standards and neither do many other so called Christian religions. SP- Just because the Seattle Archdiocese supports AHG does not mean they or AHG are right. After all the Catholic Church specifically states that "The ONLY path to eternal salvation is through the Catholic Church", we all know that statement is false yet millions of Catholics believe it is true. Jesus was not a Roman Catholic, and Catholics are not the only ones in heaven SP.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Rooster In the Gospels Jesus many times had to explain and re-explain his parables to his disciples who seemed to have trouble understanding their true meaning, hence the scripture quote,"they have eyes yet they do not see and ears yet they do not hear." I clearly answered your question in my last post in a way I thought you would be able to relate to the best, and was not at all dismissive unlike your own question. However I guess that you just did not see the answer. It is clearly there. However this discussion does not belong in this thread and should end here.

ROOSTER I do not want to get into a theological debate with you here, I know I am right with God in my life. I will not presume to speak for God as to who is saved and who is not. One definition of Heaven and Hell in seminary was "Heaven is an eternity spent in the presence of God, while Hell is an eternity spent in the absence of God". I also believe that God is a God of all of his creation, as Genesis says of the Creation, "and it was good." God is merciful, loving, and forgiving. As to who is saved and who is not that is only for God to judge, not you or I. Peace.

SP Well there are many posters here who mirrored the same sentiments as I about the AHG. Maybe because your own posts vehemently defended the AHG you feel you need to attack myself to make your point. Even the Catholic Diocese in my area is now cutting all their connections with AHG, due to the efforts of my friend, his daughter, and several others in the church and the troop. So all I am saying is be careful with any group masquerading as a youth group when their mission is something entirely to the contrary. Since the Catholic Churches in my area have cut ties with AHG how much longer before the rest of them do the same?

SR540 & Federalist First of all I am not antiChristian as I am an ordained Christian minister, and an associate pastor for many years now, with two graduate degrees in Theology and Pastoral Counseling. What I am saying is that the AHG organization is NOT truly Christian in nature because of their exclusivism and elitist attitudes. The organization does not truly follow the words of Jesus or the teachings of scripture, rather they reinterpret them for their own personal agenda, that is Pseudo Christianity.

SP Now I understand your promoting the AHG as a joint venture with your pack, since in your last post you state you are having trouble running your pack you somehow think an AHG troop tied to your pack will make it stronger. All I can say is NO it won't, the AHG has a very different mission and purpose than the BSA, it is a tool for "radical Pseudo-Christian" ideology and conversion of young girls. If your pack is having trouble you need to look first at your program and then your den leaders to see why you have problems. The AHG will not change the inherrant problem in the pack, if anything it will only make it worse.

qwasze I do not see boy scout ranks in Venturing ever, except for the current provisions for a former boy scout to get Eagle. The Venturing advancements of Bronze, Gold, Silver, Ranger, Trust, and Quest are more than sufficent, tenderfoot, 2nd, 1st class, Star and Life belong to boy scouts and IMHO Eagle should also have to remain there as well. Personally I think the Venturing Silver Award is a good equivalent for Venturers,and when combined with the Ranger Award is vastly superior to the current Eagle Award. So if I could change Venturing it would be removing any and all ties to the boy scout program, not the BSA just the boy scout program. PS- I guess our crew just puts on a fancier ECOH than your troop does qwasze, lol.

twocub I agree with some of the others here, but IMO you have the potential of losing that odd man out scout from your troop when he is unable to go. I doubt the boy will want to fill a slot with a troop where he doesn't know the other boys or leaders. Instead of drawing straws I would make sure that all the boys REALLY want to and are fully committed to going on the trip. I would talk to all their parents to make sure they are fully committed to supporting their son going and not planning a last minute withdrawal. Good Luck!

A lotta shoulda, woulda, tradition, etc. here but the truth is there is NO rule as long as a person is a paid up member they can wear any flap from their lodge that was issued for any occassion. During these days where lodges are being merged or dying out completely due to a large decrease in membership and interest lodge members have better things to worry about than what flap is the proper one to wear.