BadenP

BSA24 Your comments speak for themselves and truly portray the stereotype most outsiders have of the BSA being a White Upper Class Elitist organization. You and Callays lack of understanding about the plight of not only the poor but of the people who have lost everything in this recession is truly appalling to say the least. Your radical viewpoints, if you indeed discuss them with your troop would make you unfit as a scout leader. Since you are so well off apparently I dare you to volunteer at a homeless shelter or soup kitchen or food bank for a period of time and talk to those people whom you claim "want to be poor". I have and still do. If nothing else it would open your eyes to the inaccuracies and ignorance of your statements about the poor in this country,and help you see the reality firsthand, Callay the same goes for you.

Callay & SP Whether you want to look at US Labor statistics as to who is living below the poverty line or USDA stats as to who is collecting food stamps, or states who is collecting welfare stats, available on the agencies own websites you might be surprised as to the accuracy of what I have said here. If anyone is being too "general" it is indeed you Callay. What I have said about BSA24 is indeed accurate and true, and especially because he has NOT refuted anything I have stated. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it must indeed be a duck!

"The poor choose to be poor"- BSA24 Since the poor in this country for the most part are minorities as US Dept. of Labor reports it, and are additionally people of all races who have lost nearly everything in this long term recession(depression) BSA24's remark is truly RACIST and BIGOTTED. Callay you can throw in all your sociological theory you wish but BSA24's statement speaks for itself. He has made other comments in this and other threads that have made the hair on my neck stand on end. As a long time counselor and therapist it is pretty easy for me to see where people are in their thought processes. The sad part is BSA24 makes no apologies for his racist remarks but rather flaunts them quite often. IMO he is truly a poor role model for an adult scout leader who works with kids, and the LAST thing he needs is defending by others.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

BSA24 The comments you have made in this thread and several others have shown me you truly are an arrogant, sanctimonious, racist and bigotted person. Your posts speak for themselves and IMO anyone defending you is putting themselves in the same bracket as yourself. It is obvious to me you haven't got a clue about the poor in this country, and your self serving condemnation of them in this thread just proves my point. If you ever were put in a position of dire poverty, lost your job, your home, and all your savings you would be totally unable to cope with life, and all your arrogant superiority would probably get you into serious trouble. IMO you are unfit to be a scout leader poisoning the minds of young boys with your brand of vile contempt, bigotry, and hatred.

Calico "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." You seem to be doing a lot of stone throwing here. The way the post was written initially it looked and sounded like some of those one post wonders of the past who just get a kick stirring things up in here. If she is legit as is the info in her post this forum should be the last place to get advice since her problems are mostly of a legal nature. The best and only solution is to get as far away from that troop as possible. Starfish - If what you have relayed to us is the truth of the situation you have my sympathy. In your boys best interest get out of that troop NOW.

acco I think you have greatly missed the point of the last page of posts. The so called "ignorance" as you call it is the expectation that every family has $135 to plop down for each of their boys who want to be scouts. The outright racist and bigotted comments by BSA24 just prove my point. We all believe in uniforms, even though BSA publications clearly state they are not required. Sometimes it takes a while for every boy who comes from a poor household to be able to be in full uniform, if ever. If a full uniform is the only way in your mind for a boy to be a true scout then the "ignorance of the program" lies with yourself and others who believe the same.

SMT- You are right on the mark. We need to offer youth challenges, real challenges that take them out of their comfort zone, instead of some of the mamby pamby scouting programs being offered to them today. You can ask 50 kids what would interest them and you would get 50 different answers, the best solution is getting them to try new things they would never had thought for themselves. OGE your answer was so out of there, I have taken teens on outings where they had to depend on the outdoor skills they had been taught, no GPS, no electronics of any kind, and find their way in small groups to a base camp with just a map and compass. You know what they all had a blast, found out they could do things they didn't think possible. Not one of them complained about not having their electronic toys with them. On the way home all they could talk about was doing this kind of trip again. It really isn't rocket science folks, you give the kids fun but really challenging activities and watch them respond, then they tell their friends and before you know it your scout unit grows from 10 members to 50 in a very short time. As far as Eng61's stereotype that the BSA is a white Protestant male club come to our crew sometime, the crew is about 50/50 male and female,35% white, 20% Asian, 25% Hispanic, 15% African American, 5% Native American, you can't get a better demographic than that. Yeah, times are a changing but the youth haven't when it comes to having fun. Challenge them and they will respond, that is what our schools and society have failed to do.

Sorry Starfish, Your post smacks of someone trolling this site with a nicely made up yarn, which if true this is not the place to seek advice it is a matter for the courts. Pure and simple. Your best advice has already been given, go and find another troop, rather than go to war with the SM and ASM which will get you nowhere. Don't waste your time, money or energy going after these guys. The council SE will not get himself in the middle of a personal feud. Let you and your boy find another troop you feel comfortable with and really experience what scouting is supposed to be. PS If you really are just another troll to this forum you will be found out quickly

Owl When I was a SM the troop had at least 2 overnight activities a month in the summer and a short orientation meeting before each event. If we went to summer camp that counted as one activity. If you do not have an active summer program you risk losing some of your boys.

Beavah Well said and I agree with you 100%. Some of the happiest families I have known have had very little material wealth, but a treasure of wealth in the way they lived their lives, having an abundance of friends, pride in their families, and a deeply spiritual outlook on life. They may have never been financially able to buy their son a complete scout uniform but they were so proud of their boy when he received his badges at the troop COH as were the boys. The boys never asked me, do you ever think I will ever have a complete uniform someday?, No what they would ask was, Do you think I could ever become an Eagle scout someday?. That is the kind of wealth that people like BSA24 could not and will not ever understand, and IMO that kind of wealth is the true spirit of scouting.

Yes there are several systemic problems in the BSA that all need to be addresed. Since the 70's with the push for "urban scouting", whatever that is to the current Mazzucca era with, "Camping and hiking are just not important anymore in scouting", etc. etc. there has been a continual decline. From councils creating ghost units inflating their membership by over 50% to incompetent SE fiscal management resulting in many councils being closed and camps being sold nationwide. IMO, the further the BSA has gotten from its core roots and values the faster the decline in membership. Boy scout troops decades ago had an average of 35-50 boys today the average troop is around 10-12 boys, and the number of troops continues to drastically drop each year. In the past and currently every effort National has made to "MODERNIZE" scouting has resulted in dismal failure, and I am quite leery as to what National is planning to impose on us in the near future. Bottomline it is time to get back to the core roots,values, and scouting experiences of the founders and pioneers of this movement. Wouldn't it be nice to see the Eagle become a truly valuable and respected award once again. Where the youth really learn how to respect and have fun in the parks and forests of this country. Where the joy for scout leaders is the experiences they give to their boys instead of how many knots they can get to show off on their uniform. There is so much more which I will leave to the rest of you.

Beav The BSA does have a standard program of advancement for all boys and which every CO must follow. The BSA has a set program of SM conferences and BOR's which all troops must follow. The BSA has set key components in the Scout Oath and Scout Law which all troops must adhere to. The BSA has a set structural organization of both adults and youth which every troop must follow. The BSA has a mandatory set of skills and requirements that each boy must meet in order to advance in rank. The BSA has a set chain of command on a district, council and National level which every volunteer and CO agrees to follow when they sign the application and charter forms each year. While the BSA may not be McDonalds the two entities share some similiar characteristics, and the McDonald franchise owner has a little more flexibility in certain areas. So I think your last post really missed the mark and your argument kinda falls flat. While I agree with you that the one size fits all doesn't work for all boys the BSA program was indeed created exactly that way. The LDS Church has been allowed to radically change/alter the program to emphasize preparing their boys for mission and achieving the different levels of LDS priesthood, they are the one exception, while the rest of us must follow the rules and regs set forth from National.

Beavah We were discusing what is considered being in uniform really means, full load or shirt and necker. Just because you agree with BSA24's hard arse opinion does not make him or you correct unless you want to pull some more of your countrified legalese out and start quoting the uniform regulations, then you would be just as out of touch with reality as BSA24 and National are, except maybe you would be a little nicer than BSA24's prejudicial remarks.

F Scouter It has been a while thought you were retired in FLA or somewhere. Listen for the last five years the BSA has had a CSE who personally believes and has stated on numerous occassions that camping and hiking is not and should not be the emphasis of the BSA program. I also worked for him for several years and I know firsthand ,from the horses mouth so to speak, exactly how he feels on the matter. Part of the reason is that Bob hates camping, he never came to any council or district camporees when he was the SE. Second since the early 1970's the BSA Handbook and advancement requirements have put the outdoor emphasis on the back burner. Now in out technocentric geek world the outdoor skills continue to be de-emphasized with the blessing of National. Yes part of the blame does lie with the local units, however they are just following the lead set by the CSE and the National Office, so SNARL all you want F but you would have to be blind and deaf not to have seen the changes occuring. By the way if it wasn't for those handful of SM's determined to give their troops the real core and essence of scouting, the outdoor experience, the boy scout program would be little more than an older version of cub scouts crafts, games, etc. Unfortunately in too many troops today that has become the reality.

BSA 24 Man what an uninformed bigotted attitude you have. I happen to agree with SP 100% here, and he and I are rarely in agreement. As a long time volunteer and former DE I have seen SM's with their militaristic self important attiudes like yours and in every case their troops shrank to the size of less than 10 or completely folded, or the CO got fed up with them and booted them out of the troop. That being said, yes it would be nice if everyone was in full uniform but that is not and can not in some cases ever be the reality. Scouting is about building character, leadership, and teaching scoutcraft skills they can use the rest of their lives the uniform is just a visible symbol of those values to outsiders, it does not make the boys better scouts. Argue all you want to the contrary but the reality is that you are plainly wrong. As a former ASM, years ago, for a dirt poor ghetto troop in east LA it was a rough road to get those boys in uniform at all. Fundraisers in the area were near impossible since 75% were on welfare the rest making minimum wage. Over time we managed to scrounge up some second hand shirts and camping equipment. You never saw more proud scouts when they were picked to march in a local parade with those uniform shirts, and I would dare you to tell them they were not true scouts because they were not in full uniform. So BSA 24 get off your high horse already because you do not know what you are talking about. By the way how many scouts are in your troop? In that troop in east LA they had over 70 active and fully participating scouts.

Scoutfish Lets look at this thing realistically, over the last decade or two the de-emphasis of the outdoor program and the simplification of advancement requirements has created generations of boy scouts who lack any real skill or expertise in the outdoors and the essential skills necessary for living in and with nature. Instead it has been replaced with classroom style instruction, Eagle and Merit Badge Mills, scouts who are rushed through the ranks to get that Eagle before they turn 15 and get interested in girls more than scouts, and so junior can put Eagle Scout on his college application forms. The sad truth is that in order to keep pace with a 21st century technocentric world the BSA has compromised many of its principles, values, and uniqueness that has made scouting something that had been respected and special into just another run of the mill youth program. The TotN Chip truly is nothing more than a meaningless piece of paper. The more those of us in Boy Scouts allow the core scout program to errode over time the closer it comes to extinction as we have known it.

So lets dumb down the boy scout program even more by carrrying a cub award into boy scouts. Scoutfish the answer is quite simple, a boy scout should already be fully trained on the proper use of a knife and axe by the time he receives his Tenderfoot rank, there is no need for a card as his rank should be the symbol. Look, I know all to well that too many troops these days have severely curtailed outdoor experiences for their boys and so many of them are babes in the woods, where the only thing they have mastered is their I-pad. But a Whittlin Chip card, lets get real here. You know how many 14yo 1st Class scouts our crew has knocking down our door begging us to join because of our extensive outdoor program, way too many. We have troops here in serious trouble because a number of SM's don't see the need to do much in the way of outdoor experiences, and their troops are shrinking in size each year. What do they see as the reason, they blame sports, technology, and girls, what a load of bull. The truth is, as I stated in another thread, in my council there are too many SM's who dislike camping and the outdoors because they are so out of shape and lazy. Our SE is finally going take some action and get some changes made before his council loses over 50% of its troops. But what you propose Scoutfish would be a major step backwards for boy scouts if nothing else.

Beav The question becomes not should they act, but how should they act. The SE should suspend a volunteer temporarily from having any contact with the unit's youth and adults while they substantiate the claims. I have personally seen SE's permanently blackball volunteers without ever bothering to substantiate the allegations which were all based on heresay. Every volunteer is entitled to due process before their reputation is permanently marred and they become headline news, potentially losing their job and standing in the community. There needs to be a well thought out procedure that is followed by EVERY SE nationwide. The BSA must also realize their own severe limitations and boundaries when playing investigator in these kind of cases since they are not in any way a law enforcement agency nor do they posess any law enforcement powers. Secondarily the BSA contracts solely with the Chartering Organization, who owns the unit and who becomes an interested third party since their organizations own reputation and liability is also on the line.

Beav I think this is just the beginning, now that the BSA knows these "secret" files could possibly be released to the public on some future date they will do a much better and more uniform job in making these cases based on hard evidence vs reckless speculation on a nationwide basis. The local council SE's alone have too much power in the decision making as to whether or not an individual should be banned from scouting. The lack of consistancy, and questionable legality in investigating and dealing with these issues on a nationwide basis is the real dilema for the BSA, and the protection of the youth in the process.

john ponz The truth when brought into the light can sometimes be hard to hear, but it is also the first step in reforming and improving outdated and archaic ideas into a constructive and positive vehicle for future change. In this case a definitive improvement for the scouting program and reforming outdated and/or unneeded rules for the 21st century. Remember boy scouts is supposed to be a boy led organization not an adult dominated one.

john ponz & BDPT And both of your responses sound like two little prissy uniform police, my way or no way type of responses that must cause the boys to leave your troops in droves every year I bet. You can either allow the scouting experience to be a fun loving and growing experience for the boys or turn it into little hissy fit exchanges which you both love to do. IMO if there is one thing seriously wrong in boy scouting today it is adult leaders like yourselves who enjoy pushing their authority around and make your boys scouting experience a living hell. You both should seriously consider applying for positions with the american Heritage Girls where your closed and narrow minded opinions would be welcome. As the infamous Mr. T would say "I pity the fools", you both have my pity and your boys my sympathy. Is that clear and concise enough for both of you?

A strong SM is one who surrounds himself with strong ASM's instead of running a one man show and taking all the burden on himself. He really needs to love and understand the scouting program and allow the boys to develop true leadership skills by letting them truly lead and in the process letting them find out for themselves that sometimes a leader fails or falls short but to never give up. A strong SM helps develop a good and supportive troop committee and maintains a good working relationship with them. A scoutmaster who can do these things can only be successful, will not get too stressed out, and will feel fully supported in his role.

The first step is to replace all those "weak" SM's who are providing a substandard program in the first place, and have been doing so for a number of years. The quality of an Eagle scout equates to the quality of the troop leadership and the quality of the program he is receiving. Signing off requirements when those same troop leaders know the boy has not learned them properly/correctly in the first place, but approve a substandard effort anyway.

Boy the fred and Beavah debate goes on and reminds me of the old Merlyn and Ed debates, like watching two boxers go toe to toe. One point about any BOR and especially EBOR's is that they should not be run like the Inquistion, but rather like a supportive part of the scouting journey of that boy. Not letting it become mired down with misinterpretations of advancement rules or an adding on of requirements. I agee with Beavahs point of the scout's peers and troop leadership doing the BOR's, at least up to the EBOR, they know the boy better and know the right questions to ask, it is not a time to retest or challenge whether or not the scout has passed all the requirements. It is the BOR's responsibility to validate the scouts accomplishment, not try to tear it down. Too many adults I have seen on BOR's have used them as a platform for some sort of personal power trip and that goes against everything scouting stands for.

BD I am so glad to hear that for two reasons, first you are giving those boys the program they deserve, and second those SM's in my district use their weight as one excuse as to why the troop is not more active. You prove the point that anyone any size can deliver a quality program if they have the will and the drive to do so. Kudo's to you.