Backpacker

First of all I agree with Fuzzy about "awakening a sleeping giant before we are ready." Most CO's, whether we like it or not, do not want to take a very active role in running a scout unit and if you make them legally liable, as Bob suggests, then I feel you run the risk of losing these chartering groups and scout units will be looking for new homes. The way it is supposed to work is that the unit leaders meet with the COR on a regular basis to handle any problems, we do not need a lot of UC's running interference, they instead should be meeting with the unit leaders supporting them and making sure these leaders are contacting their COR. The last thing we need is for a bunch of uniformed,under trained and overworked UC's going to the heads of the Rotary, School officials, or church pastors and boards telling them what do in what could be perceived as a threatening manner. This approach would lose scouting many CO's. Bob,another reason your approach is misguided is that it is not, "by the book",why try to recreate the wheel as you are so fond of reminding us.

The commissioners are not in a position, nor should they have to be, to be responsible for all district training, it is not their job. If leaders do not take the basic training within a year of joining then they could not sign up again as a SM or CM until that requirement is met, but wait if you did that most of the LDS units would have to shut down and National would never allow that to happen. So where does that leave us? Trying to get as many leaders trained as possible and as soon as possible with the system we have in place. Turning the commissioners into scouting gestapos is not the answer, will not work, and will result in scouting losing many more UC's.

You can throw figures around all you want but the bottom line is that since the BSA has all its uniforms made in the USA you have to deal with union costs and much higher wages paid to the workers resulting in a uniform with an overinflated cost to produce. The only way to get a less expensive uniform is to use foreign manufacturers, but then you have to deal with the other implications and messages that might send. You can't have your cake and eat it too. USA made goods come with a price not as competitive as foreign made goods, on the other hand I feel the quality and consistency, for the most part, is superior.

Anarchist,

Great post, I love it when a plan comes together, my PLC with my help have developed similiar lists with similiar costs and we have received excellent comments on the quality and quantity of the food on our outings. It can be done well and on a budget within everyones reach

The pot calling the kettle black Bob White, What about all the insults and abuse you heap upon other posters in here that disagree with your viewpoints, are those going to be allowed to continue? You have called posters in here incompetent and not delivering scouting to their troops because their methods differ slightly from yours, and the abuse keeps going on and on. Bob you wrote in a post that you have not been affiliated with a troop for many years now, yet you have the nerve to attack those who are current scout leaders trying to discuss ideas they use in their units because they don't meet your ideology, how long will that continue to be allowed? So if this issue is to be discussed let it come full circle. People are not out to attack you Bob, rather to defend their right to their own opinions without being insulted by you at every turn. I ask the moderators to consider Bob's actions and posts as well.

Bob

You have obviously missed the point of this whole discussion, not unusual by any means, there is no good reason that with the high prices for the uniform pants that members have to accept poorer quality goods. They should be of the quality for rugged outdoor use, since that is one main focus of the program. P.S.- you sure could use spellcheck in replies Bob, typos.

So quick to jump, this time incorrectly Bob. The earlier commissioners at the beginning of scouting also did a lot of what the DE's do today since the professional staff at the beginning was very small. This is verified in two books on the history of scouting I own, one from National. So what sources are you quoting Bob, one of your own making I presume? I still feel you do not have much of a chance with National adopting your idealistic concepts after ninety five or even forty years, about as much chance as new uniform shorts, but I support your right to complain even though you criticize others for doing the same.

While you make some good points Bob I think your solutions are more idealistic than realistic because you want to change what has been in force since scouting began. I agree some radical changes are needed in many areas of scouting if it is going to survive the 21st century. Numbers are dropping, leaders who do not want training, and a policy of leaving the units alone after they are formed to struggle in that first year has led to this demise. Also on district level so many roundtables are so poorly run that attendance is abysmal so the units also suffer from the lack of new ideas coming into the program. Yes, change is needed before we scouters are talking about the good old days when there was a program called scouting. National, it is time to wake up and get moving before it's too late.

The problem is that there are so few unit commissioners left anymore and the unit leaders for one don't seem to care, in fact they seem to prefer it that way. It is one job where there are always more openings than filled positions. Quite frankly I don't think National or council feel its a high priority either.

This has been great input for me as I have been selected to serve on the next Wood Badge training team in my council and want the experience to be as meaningful as possible for the scouters attending. Your comments have been placed in my notebook to discuss with the team.

I think there is a big difference between discussing and complaining about an issue. Part of human nature is wanting things we have no control over to be better such as politics or religion or even the BSA uniform. I think Bob just likes to stir things up to get a reaction, in fact I wonder if he and Merlyn are alter egos or maybe related, they both like to push buttons and see what happens. I am amazed how controversal this thread has become for some over a pair of pants.

One of my uniforms is sewn, the other completely badge magic and I love the stuff, not to mention how fast all the patches went on. No more needle and thread for me.

Torveau,

Great post, I'm still laughing. I wonder what Bobby White will say? You don't want to incur his wrath do you?, lol. Commando boy scout troops, I can see it now.

Learn to read Bobby, I said I didn't care what you thought because I really don't. Man you are as arrogant as ever, I guess your time away didn't help you to reflect on your aggressive mannerisms, too bad. So if anyone is misquoting anyone it is you my friend. Try to remember to use scoutlike conduct here Bob.

Just to clarify the BOR consisted of the COR, CC, and an MC who were all close friends with the SM, so his boys sailed through it. This flagrant violation of the rules has led to the pending demise of that troop and a brand new patrol for my troop.

Bob White- I have not and would never speak for you on any issue. Secondly, I see now I was mistaken welcoming you back, in your absence things were much more peaceful and civil and opinions of others were treated with respect whether or not a person agreed. Since your return your attempts to belittle others is very unscoutlike as well as casting a dark cloud in these threads. Your attempt at feeling superior to others in here by demeaning them is uncalled for. Start living what you preach Bobby.

Bob, sanctimonious as usual in your replies I see, it must be hard to be so perfect and right all the time.

Fuzzy, I loved your post and I second it.

Back to topic, my troop just received eight new boys from another troop because the scoutmaster signed off his sons as they jumped from scout to first class after just two family (not troop) campouts. He signed off all their requirements personally. The parents complained to the COR and CC to no avail, their reason was that no one else wanted to be scoutmaster. IMHO this was a flagrant violation of the spirit and purpose of the scout law,in spite of what BW may think. This scoutmasters troop was down to 12 boys, now I have 8 of them. Today I just heard from this gentleman concerned by the loss of these boys and all I said to him was, can you blame them. We talked awhile and he felt justified by his actions. I wonder what all of you think, Bob you can sit this one out.

I see it didn't take you too long to get back to your same old argumentative persona Bob. I understand that this is an open forum not topics according to the wishes of Bob White, if you do not like this thread there are many others to choose from. If people want to complain about pants let them, it won't topple the foundations of scouting. Ease up Bobby you are gonna give yourself high blood pressure. Nice to have you back anyway, I miss our old arguments.

Remember Bob if you treat people with the same respect you expect then there will be few confrontations. As you told me once that you do not consider yourself an expert on scouting and I believe none of us are, but we all share the same love of scouting and helping youth. In other words you can view a glass as half empty or half full, both are correct just two different views of the same situation. Welcome back Robert.

Lots of good answers in this thread. Having been on both sides of the picture, volunteer and professional, I see room for improvement. Whether we like it or not the BSA is a business and one of the first rules of business is advertising and promotion if you want to be successful, the more members the larger the income. This is where I feel National have fallen down on the job. If there was a strong nationwide campaign promoting scouting we would see scouting take off to new heights. With tv, radio, the internet, papers and magazines there is no reason scouting can not be more in the public eye than it is currently. Many of these sources give large discounts to free air time for groups like scouting. Hitting kid and teen publications can also be a great source of new recruits. Personally, I think most National office personnel are more concerned about their large salaries then helping scouting to grow.

I agree with Eamonn when he says the BSA is losing more ground everyday. If we are not careful in a few years scouting could become a very minor player among exsisting youth organizations. This will result in less contributions and lead to loss of programs.

I don't think too many people will argue that our legal system is in quite a mess today. Lawyers and judges interpret and twist the Constitution to suit their own prejudices, needs, or causes corrupting the original intent and meaning of the document.

While one poster objected to the Shakespere quote I wonder if there isn't a prophetic message there for all of us. Eamonn I also second your comment ,"Where are those revolutionary types that founded our country today?"

We all know that Cub Scout packs are growing on a nationwide basis, however the number of troops have been on a steady decline for years now as have the number of boy scouts. As for venturing crews, many start up small and are gone within a year, this does not say much for the newest division of scouting.

In my own experience our troop has been growing, and so has our crew and when asked why by people I tell them we just try to deliver a program that is fun and challenging to the youth. Some personal observations and experiences, we seem to be getting less and less support from the council every year and bashing the DE and council has become quite popular at camporees and roundtable. As a former DE myself I find this to be disheartening since I used to put in 80+ hours a week serving two districts.

So my questions to all of you are has scouting become an outdated program that no longer attracts teens? How accountable are councils and national for this continuing decline? My troop and crew successes seems to indicate the interest is out there, so I would love to hear your ideas and experiences.

Barry,

All I can say to your last post is AMEN!!

It would be nice if we could find a way to upgrade Eagle standards once again. In my troop the boys might initially complain of what I expect of an Eagle project but when they finish they always tell me how proud they are with what they accomplished. I feel thats one of the reasons my troop is so successful and growing, both the boys and their parents know up front what is expected, they just can't slide by, but even if they don't make Eagle they are proud of all they do accomplish.I remember one boy who took just over two years to get to first class, and when he was finally awarded that badge it was

like he had gotten his eagle he was so proud. So you are right we scouters can either provide a quality program or a badge factory. Its not the speed a boy gets his eagle that is important but the determination and leadership he shows in earning it.

Barry

I agree with you, we leaders need to let the boys be more responsible for their advancement. We give them leadership skills and responsibilities and yet some feel the need to coddle each one to Eagle, isn't that sending them conflicting messages? IMHO if a boy isn't motivated to achieve Eagle then he does not deserve to get it in spite of the badgering of parents and scouters. I hate seeing the wishy washy Eagle projects and efforts of some boys being pushed through to make a unit or council look good stat wise. Eagle does not have the same status and standards it did years ago. It used to be a source of pride to attain Eagle as well as a lot of hard work. Nowadays many boys feel it is their right to be an Eagle and by doing substandard work in the process. At least in my council this is rapidly becoming the standard rather than the exception. I would love to hear the input from you other scouters as to your experiences in this matter.

Eamonn

You are brave indeed to again bring up this topic after what happened last time. Tempers flew and a former poster(BW) is gone. I hope this time we can have a polite, open, informative and civil discussion.

I think it is real easy to pass judgement too quickly in these situations. I see no real harm in card playing of any kind during down time as long as there is no money changing hands and conduct stays in check. Heck I remember when I was a kid in scouts some boys snuck cigaretts, booze and Playboys on campouts, card playing is mild in comparison and is at least out in the open. My patrol leaders do a great job on outings keeping things under control.

This is not a new situation to the professional side of the BSA. Inflated numbers, phantom (paper units) are all to commonplace practices to make council exec's look good for promotion and raises. As a former senior district exec myself I have witnessed these situations firsthand and watch incompetent SE's, FD's, and DE's get promotions and transfers based on false numbers.

However, let me say that there are some very good and honest scouting professionals out there, the problem is many of them, myself included, leave the profession for the private sector because of the dishonest games you have to play to make National happy.