Backpacker

We have taken the raw data from the few resources available to Venturing and created our own program that seems to be working well, we have grown from 15 to 35 members in our crew in less than two years. What do we specialize in? Nothing, we go camping, mountain climbing, to the ocean etc., and do community service projects, fund raisers and take trips to where ever the crew decides to go. Those with real ambition work on advancement awards, about half, and all of them just enjoy hanging out with each other. This is not a boy scout troop but a coed group of teens looking for constructive ways to have fun and finding ways to help those in need.

There are leadership positions and opportunities for those so inclined to be challenged. These teens may not be marching around in uniforms or trying to live off the land but their ideals are just as solid as those of the boy scouts. Where did we come up with this formula for our crew? Not from the training we received, very little from the Venturing pubs, we spent three months with the officers, adult advisors, and crew and created a program from our own experiences, creating goals and a three year and ten year plan. The plan has worked and our success is the proof.

This is what National needs to do if they ever expect Venturing to succeed, no matter what the crews specialization is there are certain basic structual things that must be in place and a long term set of goals to achieve if the crew is going to survive and grow. Maybe I will offer my services to National and offer to write a book for Venturing crews that will help them be successful, because it doesn't seem those folks in Texas ever will.

JW

Just wondering something, are you getting a kickback for being a spokesperson for National or what? National from what I see and read in their pub's and in their training is definitely all over the place on Venturing. They develop advancement patterned after boy scouts, they just change the names but are for all intent similiar, and then they say that it is not an important part of the program. I have read and devoured every Venturing pub from National and find them grossly incomplete or just fluff.

Now don't get me wrong I love Venturing and so do my teens as our crew keeps getting larger every year. I just feel National should do a much better support job than they currently do. The pros, including National still support the concept of Venturing teens all running around in the green shirts and gray shorts looking like a coed scout troop.So I and many other advisors disagree with your stance that National has a clear direction for the Venturing program. I am afraid it may go the way of the old explorer posts and eventually fade away which would be a huge loss to the scouting program.

JW,

I agree a little training would help, but start it where it belongs at National who are sending pros into the field with little to no knowledge of the program. I feel National is still trying to figure it out. As was pointed out in another thread the leaders manual and the venturer handbook leave a lot to be desired, little useful program info in my opinion. I like what is being asaid in the other thread on "what venturing is or is not". There is a lot of food for thought there.

OGE

I agree with you 100% I find National still having trouble communicating to their professionals what Venturing is and what direction to take it on a council and district level. At a recent training I attended of advisors I attended I was amazed at the confusion of the professionals and scouters conducting the training as to what the Venturing program is, everyone seemed to have a different interpretation of what a Venturing crew is supposed to do and be. Most of us advisors present try to follow the leaders manual as to program, but a good percentage were very specialized and those advisors sort of did their own thing. An argument developed as to whether specialized crews should be Explorer career posts and not crews. The course directors were stuck for an answer. The LDS leaders present described their program which had a more boy scout than venturer bent to it. Most of the crews were small in size about 5-10 youth. We talked about a district or council Venture rendevous but the very specialized crews felt it would not be of interest to their youth.

Okay that said, my beef with National is that they have on paper an outline only manual with survey forms and planning sheets for leaders and a uninformative and very poorly written handbook for youth, unlike the manuals for boy scouts and scoutmasters. So we leaders have to fill in the blanks, most of us do not want another boy scout program, but their is a lack of real structure in Venturing. Advancement is offered but is not considered an important or necessary part of the program, according to the training. I think National needs to develop a book on the methods of Venturing so all of our crews have the same basic structure, even with our specializations.

One course leader even stated that the crews main purpose is to just do fun activities the members want. Activities without purpose or structure, in my opinion just leads to small crews and chaos as was evidenced in this training seminar.

Nld,

I don't think your statement is entirely accurate, with the allowance of inducting female scouters the whole dynamic of the OA has been changed whether that was the intent or not. In my council lodge more women are taking adult leadership roles in the lodge, including two Venture female leaders. I agree with you though that the OA should be a boy scout group but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

I have watched our lodge lose both boys and adults because of these changes, when asked why they left most of them said it just doesn't seem the same anymore. I have to say I also agree, the OA is just not the same anymore.

As a Venture asst. advisor and a scoutmaster I find this issue an interesting dilema. Since the OA has allowed female boy scout leaders into the OA the doors have been opened and there is no turning back. I disagree very strongly with Proud Eagles analogy as to whether or not a venture crew meets the scout ideals, as far as my crew is concerned they do in every way. I do not agree personally with whomever decided to let female leaders to be nominated into the OA but that decision has been made and now it is time to make things equitable, if you allow female leaders you must allow female venturers as well. While the OA was founded as a honor camping society for boy scouts I really don't se much of that anymore with the lodges I have been affiliated with

Jd it is easy to close your eyes and pretend all is well, but it will not help the organization improve. It is like Proud Eagle said we scouters are the ones who have to instill the principles of scouting into the boys and not rely on professionals to do so. It is the scouters who make this program work, we are the ones who help the boys, and it is we who can rise above the scandals by delivering an effective program to the youth that instills in them leadership and character qualities. Scouting is still one of the best youth programs being offered today in spite of a few corrupt individuals. You don't need Bob White to tell you that, it should be what motivates your own program.

I agree with Eamonn and others here. If the pack is to survive it has to be a decision of the pack leaders. One person alone can not make it happen. If you can motivate the others to salvage the unit then by all means give it a 110% effort, otherwise let it die and move on to a better organized pack. As the old saying goes you can't get blood out of a turnip!

Eamonn

You are entitled to your own opinion as am I. As far as your nasty tone all I can say is that with someone who doesnt post here anymore gone you can now play bad cop all you want. As far as being wrong I can show you several times where your comments were "Spot Off". I will not lower myself to your level of accusations when you do not even understand the situation or circumstances. Have a Merry Christmas Eamonn!! (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Amen Scoutldr and right on!!! If you are not a member of the BW, Eamonn, or Unc fan club you too will be ostracized and censored.

First of all no one is threatening, but after countless complaints that have gone unheeded this is a last resort. The council and DE have been little support to us, they sold our camp, there have been no district events for 2 years,the council store was closed, and the DE is worthless. I have seen you complain about your council and DE many times Eamonn, so don't cast accusations like your buddy someone who doesnt post here anymore used to do. The SE has said he is leaving soon and we all look forward to changes being made. The boys are still getting programs and we are doing events with a neighboring council which is much better organized and they have welcomed our troops with open arms.

Eamonn, are you sure you and someone who doesnt post here anymore are not one in the same person, your attitudes are too similiar to be a coincidence? (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Wow I love all your responses. Let me clarify further for you Eamonn. There are six old timers in my district who are listed as unit commissioners but according to the DC they are not doing their jobs but come and disrupt roundtable and other district events. They wear all their insignia they have earned as both a youth and adult, including rank badges, religious awards, even non scout awards, etc. The DC has tried to get them to get their uniforms to standard but they refuse. The DC wants to get rid of these guys but can't find anyone to replace them, so he cuts them a lot of slack, and these guys think they are in control. The DE and DC are both intimidated by them and we troop and cub leaders want nothing to do with these walking badge museums. Most of their knots are not valid or were never earned but no one can stop them.

So we leaders all drafted a letter to the SE and council exec. committee demanding they take action otherwise we will not allow any FOS presentations this year to our units. The SE and council president said they will get to the bottom of it, that was three months ago. So now we wait and see what action, if any will be taken.

ED

Why do you let Merlyn bait you, it is a total waste of energy and time the same way it was with (someone who hasnt posted here in awhile) . No one will ever change Merlyns mind, he is a sad and bitter individual who is nothing more than a know it all smart arse. We should be concentrating on the formation of youth not bickering over legal trivia. Let the courts decide what they want the BSA will survive it. The absurdity of Merlyns arguments manifest themselves constantly, just laugh them off, thats what most of us do. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

That could be a new course at Philmont this spring, Fitness for Scouters. The finale would be a fifty miler up Mt. Phillip. I think it will also be a new tv reality show, Scouter Lose that Bulge. LMAO

Hey Trev,

Small world indeed I was also in scouting 1966-1969, we met at Gledhill St. School. It's a small world after all, lol.

Trevorum

I was in Sepulveda as well, Troop 165. I remember at Scout Fair one year for a giveaway I tied mini hangman noose knots, they went like hotcakes. Man, that was a long time ago. Great to hear from you SF Valley Council guys.

As I stated in the other thread , Are you in this for the youth or in it for personal gain, prestige, or a deep desire to somehow be personally recognized for doing the job we all signed up to do? Motivation or our personal motives makes us the leaders we are. It is not about fruit salad on our uniforms its about the boys. SRBeaver you are still barking up the wrong tree comparing apples to oranges.

SR

You need to reread my post, I never said not to recognize adults, that is important. There are several scouters at my roundtable that wear between 30 and 40 knots and other awards on their uniforms, their entire uniform is covered and they look absolutely ridiculous to the point of overkill. My point is that it is the youth that should take priority not the adults. These guys sit around and talk about earning more knots since they are no longer active in units, a few are commissioners who rarely do their job. They talk about Philmont and Woodbadge and the old glory days when they were scouts. Many youth find them laughable when they do come to our meetings, it just gives adult scouters a bad image. These guys have never grown up and still want to be boy scouts, half of them are divorced because they said their wives did not understand them. SAD, SAD.

As far as youth they should be honored to display their advancement because the program is theirs. Most adult scouters use good discretion in what they choose to display on their uniforms, those who do not need to be reminded they are not in the service and the purpose of the BSA is not to make them feel important or superior with a plethora of badges.

Trevorum and OR Pioneer,

I too was part of the SF Valley Council and Devonshire Downs Scout Fair, which is in Northridge, OR Pioneer, not Canoga Park.

My earliest scout memory was as a brand new Tenderfoot my first camping trip, which was in the snow. Of course they took us newbies on a snipe hunt that night and scared the @#*% out of us. The Tenderfeet all got stomach aches from our bad cooking. Still it is one of my favorite memories in scouting.

All I can say that there is nothing more ridiculous than seeing an adult scouter wearing so many knots, etc on their uniform that they look like a military general. Too many scouters are in this program for their own self gratification and "look what I did attitude" than helping the youth advance themselves. I do not wear any of the many awards and knots on my uniform that I am entitled, except my Woodbadge beads, because it is my job to see the youth succeed and earn awards.

There are some scouters who need to grow up and realize that the BSA is a youth program not a program for adult advancement awards. There are great training programs in the BSA to take advantage of, but not to see how many patches we can earn. I don't know how many times I have heard some old time scouter say ,"I think I will attend that event to get another knot for my uniform." It is time for those scouters to come back to reality and do the job they signed up to do, help the youth. Just my two cents worth.

Bob,

All I can say is I wish you would come back, even though we had our differences I enjoyed our sparring and miss your informative replies. This forum is just not the same without you, so it would be nice to hear from you again.

Bob,

Ok score one for you, Sons of D. Boone was Beards, Young Pioneers was an early rival of BSA that withered away but my point still remains valid, the BSA was not an independent creation but was rooted at its core with Badens program in England. The reason Seton was first Scout Exec was that he was a nationally recognized author and the new group wanted someone recognizable nationwide, Beard was not as popular and many thought he was eccentric, so he didn't have a chance and he knew it.

As far as Philmont, the two courses I took there were 1)Strictly for Scoutmasters- where we discussed all the ideas of tweaking the program for your own situation, which you feel are subversive for some unknown reason. 2)Teaching Advanced Outdoor Skills. I attended Woodbadge in California, and at Gilwell Park in which I was the only yank in the group. Recently I completed Powderhorn as well. Currently I am a scoutmaster and an associate advisor for a Venture crew I helped found, both groups doing phenomenally well.

I hope this satisfies your curiosity.I never received any of your pm's.(This message has been edited by Backpacker)

Geeze Bob,

Where do you think the patrol method, uniform style, signaling, stalking, etc. all came from? Powells program thats where. What kind of revisionist book are you reading? Beard incorporated his Young Pioneer program into American scouting, thats where the indian lore came from. Young Pioneers never really took off and Beard wanted to keep it alive being the egotist that he was. Seton wanted his life work represented as well, hence all the activities centered around nature and animals were incorporated. So if anyone needs to get their history straight it is you Bob. The only part you got right is that none of them got along well each one considered himself the definitive expert, remind you of anyone Bob? Why do you keep hounding me with a need to know about my Philmont and Woodbadge courses Bob?

Proud Eagle,

With the Catholic Church's abysmal handling of the priest pedophile and clergy homosexual issues they are hardly take a position of any real moral authority anymore on any issue. If these are the kind of people you want deciding who our next president to be then you threaten our democratic process itself. Up through the 1960's in the USA Catholics were called Papists and denied jobs because of their perceived loyalty to the pope over every other authority. As ridiculous as this may seem this last election brought inner turmoil to the American Catholic church. Bishops and priests endorsing and denouncing candidates as never before seen in an election leaving the laity confused and angry. I for one condemn the Catholic Church from the Vatican to the local priest who used their position of power to try to influence and corrupt our election process and our freedom of choice, as should every Catholic no matter what side of the issue you were on.

Bob,

I think WWPND is trying to get you to admit you were wrong. The BSA of 1910 was modeled almost exactly after BPs program, adaptations for local use would come later. The Bible was written thousands of years ago yet is still valid today, so why not the words of BP himself? Maybe because his words blow a large hole in the Bob White interpretation of Scouting.The other posters here are correct Baden Powell wanted to have his leaders to use their own ingenuity and pass this on to their boys, that builds leadership for both. Baden Powell and the National office never intended for Scouting to be an inflexible program Bob, why do you have such a difficult tim with that concept?

Whether we like it or not Scouting is struggling today to hold its own with youth in a technologically advanced world vastly different from 100years ago. Many wonder if Scouting is even culturally relevant anymore. So again I say, anything that a scout leader can do to retain boys by tweaking the program here and there and is successful is to be applauded not condemned by someone who views Scouting with tunnel vision. While some of us have been fortunate with unit growth many more are struggling to hold on the few boys they do have. The truth we as scouters have to face is that if Cub Scouts were not part of the picture the BSA has been in a decline for 30 years nationwide membership and leadership wise. So we owe it to the boys to be willing to try new things to keep our program exciting and relevant to the boys. In my opinion National is too concerned with money and numbers and not enough about program development which is one of the main reasons units are folding. A friend of mine who was a former professional scouter at National has told me things that go on there that would enrage every scouter today. After many years of trying to advocate change and reform he left in disgust. Bob, we as scouters have to remember that we are the Scouting program and leaders not the paper pushers at council and National.