Backpacker

Well I guess you would have to add, National Geographic, Time, Newsweek, Sports Illustrated, etc., because they all have published pictures of naked or scantily clad women as well. You see what I mean tortdog your whole premise is without foundation, and your whole approach is simplistic and childish nonsense. This is not an either or, or a black and white issue, where do you draw the line?

I for one consider this thread ridiculously absurd, for it serves no real purpose or leads to any meaningful discussion. Tortdog what the heck is your point?

Rooster, you are consistent as ever, you definitely are a man on a mission, good for you.

The point of this prolonged discussion is that Ed and Bob are both right, the methods of scouting are not requirements however if you do not incorporate them in your program you can't really have a true scouting program.

The trouble comes when the methods are interpreted differently from their original intent or purpose, unfortunately I have seen this happen in three different councils training programs, they all used the same syllabus but some of the interpretations by some of the instructors were really off base. I guess they never heard of Train the Trainer training.

I think that when two or more read the same book they may not see the same meaning or point of the author. Just like the Bible, you can read the same scripture and come up with a variety of conclusions, thats why we have so many

"Christian" traditions. The methods of scouting are no where near as complicated as the Bible yet there are so many different opinions as to their meaning and how to put them into action. Makes you wonder.

I got 17 out of 17, but I had to guess on the other name for Philmont. Great webpage, thanks Fred.

I think the discrepancies occur in what questions and how they were asked. A poll that states what religion are you rather than what religious group are you an active participant will get very diffent results. There are many Catholics in the world, but those who attend Church and are active on a regular basis, every Sunday minimally, are much fewer in number. A non practicing Catholic may still consider themselves Catholic and will answer a poll that they are Catholic when the reality is they are not. Many church's also report those who come to Mass only on Easter and Christmas as members of their congregation when in reality they are not. Thats why you get such differences in these polls.

Jerry, thats great news about your parish, but I disagree with you that either Newsweek or CNN is anti-Catholic, what do you base this on?

Jerry

What were your references for the information on converts because my sources Newsweek, Catholic Digest, Christianity Today, and US Catholic have all reported just the opposite.

Let me state however as a life long Catholic that I respect and support the office of the papacy and will continue to do so no matter who holds the office, however that should not preclude clergy and laity from holding open dialog concerning the direction of the Church. I feel that most Catholics will support Benedict as they did John Paul even though they may disagree with certain stances each has taken or will take on certain issues because the Church is much more than one man, even if that man is the pontiff.

Blade

There is a huge difference between being obedient to God and blindly following the human dictates of bishops and cardinals that are out of touch with their own people, and whose acts are not always inspired by God(ie:Cardinal Law et al). I suggest you read any reference on Pope Julius X and you will understand that not everything that happens in the Vatican is divine in nature, and then read about the pedophile cases in Boston, you will see that the moral dictates have changed over time. Blade, if the people desert the church then the church will cease to exsist, that was what the Reformation was all about and why the Council of Trent was called to respond as they tried to restore some credibility and remove the corruption that had crept into the Church.

I agree with Trev's comment, Prairie's comment was milder than many that have been allowed. And yes Prairie you are correct in your summation even though some Catholics tend to ignore some of the Church's early history of Inquistion and Persecution. OGE if you want some interesting reading try the papacy of Julius X , it validates Prairies point concerning the origins of selling indulgences, simony, and immorality in the Vatican.

Prairie

I agree with your statements. The only good thing about Ratzingers selection is that due to his advanced years his papacy will be short. As the number of Catholics leaving the Church continues to increase, the latest study shows that the number has gone from 40,000 to 60,000 a year half that number from the USA and Europe alone. In Latin America the numbers leaving are even more shocking due to a dramatic growth of evangelical churches. If this trend continues then it will not matter who is pope.

Benedict XVI will certainly have his hands full during his reign. Did you know that a poll done by Christianity Today magazine showed that while the largest Christian denomination in the world is Catholic, the second largest group were Ex-Catholics, larger than Lutheran, Episcopal, Methodist, Baptist, etc. That shows that the Catholic Church has not done a very good job reaching out to the laity.

Gentlemen

I think you miss the deciding factors about who becomes or stays president. It is all about economics, as long as unemployment is down and the economy is relatively strong and people are mostly content then the democrat or republican is a hero. When things start to go bad, runaway inflation or a recession, massive unemployment, etc. people will scream for change be they liberal or conservative, history bears this out.

Like it or not the reason Bush was elected and then re-elected was because a good number of democrats voted for him, why, because for many democrats Gore and Kerry did not represent their own middle of the road brand of "liberalism" and leadership they felt our country needed. As this economy continues to slide downward, as it did at the end of Clintons second term, people will be looking for a new direction and a change in leadership. If you study history you will see that economic issues have always trumped moral issues in elections, that trend has never changed and never will. So for all you religious zealots your arguments do not hold water on this issue, Bush, like every other president, was elected by the big money interests, not the religious right, to think otherwise is just plain naive.

Ranik

You misread your reference. Girls and boys are to have separate cabins or tents but can occupy the same campsite, pg 326 of the Venturing Leaders manual under coed overnight activities, #3 states that seperate housing is to be provided for males and females, not separate sites. This was also mentioned in Venturing Leader Essentials Training, they can not share the same tent, and if in a large cabin there must be separate sleeping quarters for each. Bob I concur with you.

Crewadv

There are no rules prohibiting a crew and troop from camping together in BSA reg's. However this should be an occasional thing rather than a regular practice otherwise you will see the two groups lose their seperate identities defeating the whole purpose of each program. Besides, 11-13 age boys will not want to do the same things as 14-20 year old teens. My crew is also coed and that can lead to other problems in joint activities. The crews in my district go to the district camporees and work at running the events, judging the troop campsites, and act as security for the event. The younger kids look up to the older teens and a new and separate program they can move into when they get older.

Bob

You do love making those personal attacks at my every post and then you cry foul when it's done to you.

To quote you, "Stop making this thread about me and stay on the topic please."

I am on WoodBadge staff this summer and we have an all new staff of trainers, experienced and knowledgable, unlike the former group of deadwood who haven't been involved with a troop for decades. You know the type Bob, super critical, their way is the only way, love to talk about the good old days and think they are training new leaders. Well our SE finally cleaned house and our council numbers are better than ever as are the number of trained leaders," who are motivated,inovative, excited and delivering a great scouting program." to quote a recent visitor we had from National office.

I agree with Lynda's post completely. Scout leaders need to learn the difference between rules and regulations and the recommendations of the BSA one is mandatory one is not. There are already enough rules in the scouting books that adding additional ones can get cumbersome. This is a boy run organization with the adults serving as advisors not controllers. A well trained and run PLC will save the adults many headaches and problems, and if something comes up they can't handle they know to come to you for backup.

The one problem I have seen in SM training, Woodbadge, etc. are trainers who have never been scoutmasters telling you to follow everything in the manual, including the recommendations no matter what, their expertise was sorely lacking and it showed in their presentations. The trainers who are or recently were scoutmasters brought a wealth of useful and practical know how that was beneficial. Training is more than just reading information from a book, its the ability to take that information and put it in a format that the scouter can and will use in their troop. Thats the difference between quality training and regurgitating information back to an audience. You don't ask a mechanic how to do brain surgery, you ask a surgeon. If you give the PLC quality training they will be successful. Comments have been made in the past about the need for all scouters to be trained and I agree, but it must be quality training based on method and experience that is useful and practical, not idealistic prattle from someone with no firsthand experience.

I have not attacked you or your family, rather call to task the relevance of your question to scouting, for it has none. All that has been accomplished in this thread is a sad exhibition of the prejudice and intolerance that is alive and well in our society and in scouting. IMHO this thread should have been closed long ago, for it serves no useful purpose.

Bob, to answer you directly let me quote another poster in another thread you were disagreeing with,"I will not get down into the mud to wrestle with a pig."

First of all this was not a pertinent question in the first place because it is an all white or all black question with no gray middle of the road, which is the reality of our world today. This thread was nothing more than Bob throwing more flamebait out there to incite others and he was successful, turning scouters against each other for no good reason,typical.

The BSA has its policy set and probably will never change unless forced to by legislation, court case, or a significant loss of revenue. This is more than choosing between a gay trained leader or a straight untrained one, it touches some to the core of what they believe is moral or is immoral. Bob is probably chuckling to himself over the disharmony he has created, you do not have to lower yourselves to his level.

I would stay, and I think the foundations of scouting would still be just as strong. I agree with Dug and OGE that those who left scouting because of these two issues would have to do some deep intraspection as to their own prejudices or intolerance. Who knows maybe even Merlyn would finally be happy with the BSA. The reality is that the "reverent" part of scouting is so firmly entrenched I do not see that changing soon. However in another thread a while back it was discussed that the 12th point of the scout law was added to the BSA program and was not part of Baden Powells original program, or is it included in most other countries scout program. You scout historians can clarify those facts.

I agree with Semper when he states "I do not do scouting for the religious experience.", and neither do I, or most of us I would bet. Since religious intolerance is so rampant in the world today, eliminating this requirement from the BSA would keep the program purer to the original intent of Baden Powell's concept of scouting.

CNY

I agree with the other posters. The patrol is the core of the troop, just like the den is the core of a pack. The stronger each patrol is the stronger the troop will be. If a patrol is struggling the faster the issues are resolved the better, so they do not weaken the troop. My troop has now topped 60 active scouts from the original ten we started with three plus years ago. One of the reasons is our strong patrol program, we use mixed age patrols with excellent success, even though the current thinking is same age patrols, there are good points to both. Mixed age patrols was the original patrol method in the BSA, even though some in here disagree with it, our SE and council completely support our troops use of it. The PLC in our troop are also very dynamic self starters requiring little adult guidance and this also adds to the strength of the patrols and troop.

OGE

I agree with you. I think it is just the fickle nature of humanity, a prominent person passes on and the world extols his virtues, even those who disliked them, case in point Ronald Reagan. The sad part is that when the new pope is chosen watch and see how fast they forget about John Paul II. I guess people need a short period of mourning and then want to move on with life as quickly as possible. This week will be JP II's memorial, next week when the new pope is chosen it will be time for joy and celebration. Yet the conditions in the world you refer to will still remain the same.

Eisley

Right you are. JP II is a man of deep conviction and a man of the people, he is the first pope to reach out to non catholics as well as catholics. He was a laborer and a youth leader in his youth in Poland, and he never lost touch with those roots. He was instrumental in the downfall of communism in Eastern Europe, and he reached out and apologized to the Jewish community for any and all offenses committed against them by the Catholic Church. He was the first pope to give Israel ambassador status to the Vatican. As a life long Catholic, while I didn't always agree with some of his stances, he always had my greatest respect and admiration. His passing will be a tremendous loss not only to the Church but to the world.

Whoa Bob

fgoodwin and Ed are right the only witch hunt here is in your misinterpretation of what people have said. Why would anyone in here be against the BSA? That, like your arguments makes absolute no sense. fg and ed are correct when they state the only one on a witch hunt is you. The BSA will survive this attack just fine and in six months few will even remember who Mr. Smith is or care, its the nature of the public. Those of us in scouting will do all we can to present scouting in a positive light and life will go on. So lets not blow things all out of proportion here, people can say what they believe Bob, the First Amendment,you don't have to agree with them and they do not have to agree with you. Thats why America is such a great country.

I agree that the BSA should not be held accountable legally, that being said with the current climate of legal sensationalism and the call for more morality/ethics, ie Terry Schaivo, Michael Jackson, it would not surprise me if some conniving attorney found a way to turn this into a negligence case against the BSA.

I think the best thing the BSA can do is to distant themselves as far away from Mr. Smith as possible and let him be the sacrificial lamb for the media circus. I think that the courts will definitely make an example of Mr. Smith, and I hate to think what the prison inmates will do to him after he is convicted.

In any case I agree that every scout and scouter should not feel embarrassed about being part of the BSA because of the actions of one sick and perverted individual.

Bob

Re read your own posts, you are not only misquoting me but yourself as well. You did say all those things I quoted. A slight reduction in registration costs would more than be made up by stronger, longer lasting units, in FOS, popcorn sales , more camp support, etc. No matter how you slice it Bob your approach to this problem is still unrealistic as well as just plain impractical. If National is reading this thread I have no doubt you are providing them some great laughs. You are also still incorrect about the duties of a DE versus a commisioner, just ask National. Oh how the mighty do fall.

Bob,

Your incorrect spin on my comments were a result of your posts. The commisioners never had the same job responsibilities as the district executive. The DE supports the commisioners in his district, so that comment is incorrect, and since I was a DE and you were not your interpretation of the DE's duties in your last post were a fabrication of your own creation and a misunderstanding of professional scouting that some volunteer scouters hold. As to valid points Bob, all I can say is that you are beating a dead horse on this topic.

Eamonn is very correct in saying that the commisioner service is a thing of the past, most councils, as others have stated, do not even have a real functioning commisioner group, most are retired scouters who still want to stay involved. These guys while well meaning can not handle the current job let alone adding more responsibilities to their plate. Bob, I disagree with you very strongly when you state that scouting can afford to lose those CO's that do not meet your standards.

We already are losing too many thanks to the ACLU and others who want scouting out of the public facilities and military bases, and churches, etc.

My suggestion is that National offer some real incentives to CO's that do a great job such as reduced registration fees, more recognition of the CO, IH, and COR who excel, discounts at the scout store and on advancement badges are just a few real enticements to get the CO's to do a better job. This would be far more effective than changing a commisioner service that is rapidly declining in number every year.(This message has been edited by Backpacker)