Backpacker

Semper

I agree with you, but lets take it one step further do we need all the bureacracy at National? Why do we need a National Supply division when there are thousands of retail manufacturers out there who could produce superior uniforms and equipment at much more competitive prices, the supply division is also a dinosaur whose days are numbered.

Next why do we need a Chief Scout Exec. making over a half million dollars a year just to go to the jamborees and a few other events just to say say welcome? The National Office is in grave need of an overhaul, it contains many redundant positions as well as a large number of personnel who do very little at all to justify their large salaries. As a former Sr. DE I found it disturbing the lack of financial responsibility on both a council, regional and National level which is why I left the profession after four years of working my tail off and watching the FOS money being wasted away year after year. Acountability should begin at the top and filter on down to the councils, and we volunteers as contributors should demand both National and Council accountability every year and start with cutting the deadwood who can not justify their positions.

Dlw

I find your post to be premature. How do you handle problems at work or home when things go awry do you always quit and run or do you try to work things out first. Bring up your concerns to the committee and demand that they take action, also give them your ideas as to solutions to these problems and let them know that without this help you will step down as soon as they find another leader. To scribble out a letter and then cut and run are the actions of a coward, remember you are only hurting the boys. I am sure all of us in this forum have at one time or another felt like bailing, but we stuck it out and things improved in most cases. It is easy to run away, but it takes real guts to stay and work things out, the result will be a much stronger pack.

Emb I ditto your comments. Boxie it sounded to me from the start your heart really wasn't into doing the preparation, training and work into getting a crew started. You need a minimum of five adults in your crew and each one should be assisting you with the tasks involved. Secondly, Boxie your support should be coming from your council DE and district venturing leaders not the internet. A Venturing crew can be a great joy, but it is also a lot of work to get started and be and stay successful. There is plenty of help available to you, all you have to do is ask. Blaming this forum for not starting a crew is just a copout at best, you need to have the desire and determination to make it happen. All of us Venturing advisors have been where you are now, if you want it bad enough it will happen, blaming and excuses will only lead to failure.

Kahuna and Eagle, Venturing is not all about high adventure there are a variety of options, look at the Venturing Handbook, there are sports options, arts and hobbies, conservation/outdoors,religious life, and sea scouting or a combination of these. A venturing crew is not the same thing as a Venture patrol. The crew decides whether to be a specialized crew or a general interest crew combining several aspects like my crew does. An antique car club would be a good fit for a specialized crew. CNY is also correct that Explorer posts do still exsist and are career interest posts, such as fire, police, sports medicine, search and rescue to name just a few.

This is why I never understand why SM's say that Venturing steals their boys. Posts and Crews are usually always coed and tend to focused on one or a few specialized interests, they are not or ever were intended to be a group of older boy scouts, rather they were for teenagers who were former scouts or those who were not interested or eligible(girls)in being boy scouts.

OGE

This is the first time I have seen this thread and my post was to clarify an erroneous misunderstanding of these particular rules that I have read in other threads of this type. I know that Bob is no longer with us thank you.

Once again BW mis-spoke, the rule states " the pointing of any firearm ,including paintball or lasers, at any individual is unacceptable. However law enforcement agencies can use their standard training agenda in Law Enforcement Venturing programs." This means that law enforcement venturers can shoot at the cardboard human targets on the police ranges under guidance.

Pg 35 of the guidelines states " Boy Scouts are permitted to fire 22's, rifles, air rifles and shotguns under direction of a certified instructor." Since a paintball gun is nothing more than an air rifle, shooting at cardboard or metal targets under proper supervision would be allowed. The only prohibition is shooting at other individuals. People need to read all the regulations not just selected passages. OK BW

After all this time this restriction is just now becoming an issue, there is something vital that is missing in this story. If the CO backs the COR, which they probably do, then your only option is to find a new CO. This is probably a no win battle for the troop, go find a VFW or service club to sponsor you then these problems will simply go away.

To those unfamiliar with scouting I can see where a vision of a 30-50 year old man running around in shorts and knee high socks and a uniform shirt with myriads of badges on it might be a disturbing site to these people as well as appear to be geeky, especially if they are 50 or more pounds overweight.Sometimes even I am disturbed by the sight, lol.

Scouting is not and has not been in the forefront of our culture like it used to be, and there are those adults who do relive their childhood since they were not in scouts as kids.We need to show the positive impact scouting has on the kids and society as a whole. There are adult geeks in every youth organization in exsistence . There are also those who do not know how to balance their time between family and scouts and those leaders do deserve the wrath of their spouses. Scouting is an avocation, but was never intended to dominate your daily life. Scout leaders who run around in uniform every chance they get other than for scout functions do deserve the title of scouting geek.

F Scouter

You misunderstood my post. The list you supplied of trainings, only the last 10 even apply to boy scouts and many councils, mine included do not even offer that training, most SM's get the basic training and then move to WB, and unless they are fortunate enough and wealthy enough to go to Philmont they will never get any other nuts and bolts training after basic except for Woodbadge. And while leadership skills are important so are advanced scouting skills even more important. The Woodbadge for the 21st Century falls short of its predecessor in my and many other participants and trainers opinions, it might even make a good spinoff for a new thread to see how others feel. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

I have to agree with LOng Haul's comment about WB, after attending WB at Gilwell and here years ago and after recently

finishing being on staff for the new WB I feel that National is heading in the wrong direction. Yes leadership skills are important but more important are understanding the nuts and bolts of the program.Maybe thats one reason why some leaders stray away because they were not properly prepared in the first place. While all the participants in our recent class enjoyed it they almost all stated they wished there had been more on scouting skills instead. That has been the consensus in our council on the new WB training. As ED has stated we are in this for the youth not personal recognition or to flash a pair of wood beads. Welcome back ED.

Sorry to hear about your pack, but it sounds like there is another side to this story we are not hearing. There have always been poorly run councils through scoutings exsistence yet the units always seem to manage to survive. It also sounds like you and your husband were running the pack all alone a one man show so to speak, I have seen this occur in other packs and they have always gone under. Did you have a truly functioning pack committee with at least five other adults? Did you have any other den leaders, besides the two of you? Was your CO involved with your pack, your COR and IH could have helped with the council. If your answer to these questions is no then the council was within their rights to ask you to step down since you were not following the BSA policies, program, and regulations. I know this sounds blunt but a maverick unit can and has caused many problems for the BSA. It sounds to me like you let your anger at council politics supercede the needs of your boys.

Scoutdad

When I wrote to the sea base to inquire about openings for my crew they sent me a beautiful video highlighting all the high adventure bases. I show it every year before we plan our big summer trip. I am sure you can get this at your council or try writing philmont or the sea base telling them your troop is interested in going there and you would like more information, it didn't cost me a penny and it is a great recruiting tool.

As a former DE I can tell you that all scouting professionals are judged on only two things raising money and starting new units which bring in more boys. If a DE is doing their job right there should be a strong commissioner force in place to help units that are struggling. The reality of today is that in many districts there are few to no commisioners, who are so often unappreciated anyway. The other problem is that unit leaders look at commissioners as council spies and will not use them. DE's in training at National are told not to get directly involved in individual unit problems until all other avenues have been exhausted. F Scouter is correct when he states that the council is there to provide tools and support to the units and are not there to police units, unless there is a serious violation of BSA policies.

I agree thats a good question. The only answer I could find was that the EO appears as a position on the charter, he approves and signs the charter and holds the power of the CO, so as an ASM there is a perceived notion that there could be a potential for a conflict of interest. The only dual position allowed in scouting , as we all know, is that the COR and CC which can be the same person.

It is a shame though that he will lose his tenure in, I would suggest you have him contact the KoC Grand Knight and have some other knight be the EO of record so your ASM could continue to serve where he wishes.

The crew advisor is the same as a scoutmaster in a troop and serves many of the same functions. The associate advisors are like assistant scoutmasters in the troop.Page 250& 260 of the Venturing Leaders guide states that the review committee for silver, gold awards cosist of Venturing youth and adults. The advisor is to have a conference prior to make sure the youth has developed a plan to meet the goals, much like a scoutmaster conference with a little different focus.

I suggest that you and all your adult leaders take Venturng Leader Specific Training ASAP and get a Leaders Manual, these resources will make you and the rest of your adult leaders successful. Then provide a good solid program and watch your crew grow.

Herms

Welcome to Venturing. There are no BSA regulations regarding how big your crew can be. My crew started at 15 and we are now 50, the secret to handling a large group is to 1) have a sufficent number of associate advisors to maintain order a 1 to 7 is ideal. 2) with a group this size there will be a variety of different interests so our crew will sometimes break into smaller groups for specific activities, some doing outdoors/conservation, some doing sports, some doing hobbies. So you might say we have sub crews within our crew. For all the larger events and fund raisers we all work together as one crew. All the literature states you allow crew members to pursue their special interests rather than everyone pursuing the same interest. Again the secret is enough talented adults to help you manage and a very strong team of youth officers all working together. This is our fourth year and we keep getting new members every week. I think this is because every teen can find a spot where they feel they belong and can excel.

Best Wishes to you and your crew!

Scott

I am on your side on this, if it is to honor your heritage and your SM approves then go for it. Don't let a few "uniform police" scouters scare you off, this is your day.

F Scouter, I stand corrected what I stated as a rule was in fact a long time custom in my council, not a rule, yet every troop kept that custom in that council, every Eagle COH always had a council rep, Commissioner, SE or DE in attendance.

I agree with the point Eamonn made, "we are not here to be uniform enforcers but to teach youth to make proper decisions." There are points on both sides. For example there is a rule that a council representative must be present at all Eagle COH's to open and close it otherwise it is not considered official, yet I have been to many courts where there was no SE, DE or Commissioner present, did that negate the ceremony, technically by the book it does, but this practice still goes on, even though the BSA is not being officially represented.

As to the kilt it is not official BSA, but neither are jeans or dockers which are worn on a regular basis at COH's. I agree there has to be a strong reason for him to wear it, but remember the COH is just a formality, the boy has already earned his Eagle, this is for the most part his last recognition ceremony and more likely than not he will be moving on very shortly, so I think we can cut him a little slack. If a desire to wear a kilt has a very good reason behind it then it should be allowed, the pillars of scouting will not tumble.

Kamakian has taken us to other areas of debate in dealings with councils, but lets stay on popcorn.

Yes popcorn is not my favorite fundraiser, it is too expensive, it always has been and will be, but the reason people buy it is to support scouting, not for the value of the product. It is just like contributing to PBS you pledge a $100 and get a $15 cd, but people do it to keep the station on the air, the same thing with scouting the public loves to see cub and boy scouts in uniform selling anything, for nostalgic or other reasons. Are there other products out there that might be better, maybe but they have to be researched and presented to council in a professional manner if you want the SE to listen. Then the next step can be taken, developing a campaign and launching a trial run. To me popcorn is a way to help a unit raise some money for camp, et. al, not only to support the council.

If you want to compete with Walmart it just isn't going to happen. Find new and creative marketing methods, my crew does a popcorn festival in a busy local park every year and they sell a lot of popcorn, we made enough from all our fund raisers to go to the sea scout base in Florida this summer. Remember you don't have to sell it if you don't want to.

BW

It would be nice if you responded more postively to these peoples questions or not respond at all. You were just plain rude amd condescending to kahits questions. It is not your place to judge others when you have no intimate knowledge of that units inner workings, and your so called years of experience should have taught you better how to deal with people. Fred is so correct in his evaluation of your reply.

Kahits, in your current situation you have little choice but to combine dens until you recruit some more bears. Let the bear work on his own advancement but in the presence of other boys so he doesn't feel isolated and alone. Years ago I was asked to be a Webelos leader in my churches pack, the den had only two boys. We did all the outings and advancements and the boys had a ball, by the end of the year we had acquired five more boys for the den from outside the pack and we grew from there. So don't give up hope, do a good program and more boys will come in, from little acorns mighty oaks grow.

BW

First of all the drop in my council's participation in popcorn sales is accurate and more common than you think, my scouting friends in Calif., Ariz., and Nev. tell me there have been large drops in participation there as well.

Second, I do not dislike popcorn sales and my two units are participating again this year. My point is that other units ( a large number) are not participating and I think that the council needs to find out why and listen to those unit leader concerns as they greatly benefit from the profits as much as the units.

Third, I agree with ED that your math is way out of whack that you used in your example, I guess math and logic are not among your strong points.

My evidence, is that in my council over the last three years participation in popcorn sales have dropped from 80% to 25%, if that isn't a red flag I don't know what is. Personally my units have sold popcorn and done fairly well, but most of the other leaders are struggling with it, especially this last year when the council dumped Trails End for another company, as a result sales dropped dramatically. Since councils really need this income these days of a tight economy, no United Way support, and decreasing FOS contributions it might do them some good to listen to their leaders suggestions as to alternative products. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

"All I said was a lot of units make a lot of money from popcorn sales and the only ones that complain are those who do not sell it or sell it very well."

The question is, Is BSA Popcorn overpriced to the point where it is no longer the big seller that it was years ago, and that is a valid concern among many scouters today, especially if a council is forcing a unit to sell it, as was stated by another poster, or they would not sign off other fund raising events. Is that being scoutlike? (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Ed & Hunt

Nice try guys you have Bob backed in a corner so he will just continue to evade your questions.

As others have stated, including BW, "the BSA is not perfect", it makes mistakes and errors just like any other organization, to think otherwise is just not being realistic. Now how they handle correcting or not correcting those mistakes should be the focus. You will never get Bob to admit that any BSA policy is wrong because if they are wrong then so is he, it's like trying to get a staunch Christian to become an atheist, while it may be remotely possible it is highly unlikely.

Bob, Bob ,Bob,

"jkhny creates his own facts", thats a rich accusation coming from someone who does just that most of the time in your own posts.

First of all Smith was guilty of a crime, and a major felony at that. St. Jean was guilty of no crime, just of having a lifestyle that the BSA disagrees with so there is no real grounds for comparison on the merits of their cases alone. Anyway you want to twist it St. Jean got a raw deal from the BSA based on his years of service to the organization. I don't want to argue whether or not the BSA had a right to fire him as that point is now moot. I am sure that St. Jean's attorney will easily be able to get him the benefits he deserves since the BSA is on a real slippery slope legally for denying him benefits in the first place he had earned from his years of service.