Backpacker

Proud Eagle let me disagree with you on a couple of points. Firstly as a Catholic the issue of denying communion was not only strongly denounced by the laity but by most of the clergy. In my Archdiocese many priests publicly stated from the pulpit that they would leave the priesthood before denying communion. Your point about practicing Catholics is irrelevant, this is the first US election where the Church in Rome tried to dictate who to vote for and failed to achieve the support of both the clergy and laity. Only in a few dioceses nationwide did the Bishops even try to enforce no communion rule and they just alienated their congregations. NO church should have the right to interfer in politics just as the government has no right in running the churches, seperation of church and state is just as valid today as it was over 200 years ago.

If churches continue to enforce their ideologies into our governmental processes then they should lose their tax exempt status they enjoy in our country.

It is true that we could debate this till the cows come home and still disagree. This thread proves that some troops have tried new things and have been very sucessful some have not. My own troop has been very successful with mixed age patrols if we were not we would stop, pure and simple. We have continued to flourish with 65 youth in the troop as of today. So in spite of what some may think (Bob) they are just plain wrong. In another thread,"Where are the Scouting Heros of Today", someone hit the nail on the head when they stated that "Scouting today is being run by administrators not visionaries". We scout leaders are what makes scouting successful not the national office. I also think BW is totally wrong when he states that National is constantly changing and updating the program, what they are doing is making administrative changes due to political pressure and to keep the BSA out of court. Maybe someday there will be a true visionary put in as the Chief Scout Executive, as unlikely as that is, and bring Scouting back to a level of recognition and pride it once possessed.

Nice try Bob,

Baden P is correct when he stated the difference between a post and crew, your point to support your argument is not valid. While that is a interest it is not the sole focus of a crew as it is in a post. If you have any current literature on Exploring you would understand why. Badens point on Sea Scouts further bears this out, Sea Scouts would be part of Exploring instead of Venturing if your point had any validity, which sadly it does not. Check with the national office and you will see that BadenP is correct.

First of all Hunt and NJ your posts were both informative and eloquent in their content, thank you for your logical approach. Now it looks like Tom Ridge, Homeland Security is also leaving along with the two top CIA officials who have resigned. OGE I don't care if you think this is normal it is not, there is something fishy going on in DC. I would think that Republicans would also be concerned with recent events. Also another point personally I like Connie Rice but how can you expect her to effectively negoitiate with rulers in the middle east who despise women in powerful positions?

I think Bush and his buddies have bitten off more than they can handle these next four years. I pray our country is not put into a bigger crisis than what we already face today.

OGE I would be happy to discuss Bush vs. Kerry with you anytime, I won't run from any of your questions.

Eamonn,

I must take issue with your reply. Years ago I had the rare opportunity to attend a Woodbadge course at Gilwell while on assignment in London. I love the history of the place and being the sole yank in the group I felt privileged at the opportunity to learn more about British Scouting and methods. I truly treasure my beads, woggle and neckerchief that I received at Gilwell. Don't get me wrong Windsor was great to see, but my memories of Gilwell will always be special.

WOW WOW WOW

This is truly a first, pigs must be flying, because I agree with Bob White 100% on this issue, if you want to blame someone it starts with the unit leaders. Touche Robaire!!

JimmyD

I don't know where you get your facts but they are not only erroneous but hilarious. Your misinformation regarding Bush's cabinet heads are dead wrong, Powell has wanted out for a long time as he disagreed with Bush most of the time and was humiliated by him in public countless times. Ashcroft, who cares its just great he's gone. As for the rest they know when to get off a sinking ship. Bush by the way got 40% of the southern black vote. Read some papers like Wall Street Week, Newsweek, etc., instead of relying on tv for all your information like most Republicans did.

I think there have been good arguments made on both sides. My pet peeve is not cost but the poor quality of the uniform parts made by the suppliers BSA uses. Case in point I needed to get an "official" Venture uniform for the training committee I am on, I have a BSA National Supply store near me so in I went. They had the shirt, insignia, belt and socks and thats all. The head of the store told me they do not stock the pants and shorts anymore because of all the complaints and returns they had to do with them. I could special order them in 6-8 weeks at $66 for the pants and $48 for the shorts. Well I found both of them on EBay for $25 each, official BSA issue and all, but the poorest quality material, flimsy and badly made. I wear them to official functions only because one outing would do them in for sure. It is sad that the BSA uniform standards have slipped so dramatically. If BSA demands full uniforms then I think the parents also have a right to demand better quality for the price.

Bush has again proven what a liar he is as his cabinet now abandons him right and left. Don't believe the bull about all of them only wanting to serve one term it is just not true. With Powell gone I bet that if the election were held today Bush would have lost his support in the south from black voters and Kerry would have easily won the election. I think every American should question Bush's credibility, even his cabinet doesn't support him, Powell leaves while that idiot Rumsfield remains, that should scare every one who voted for him.

Owl, Let me try to clear this up for you. If your crew decides on creating their own uniform then forget about what the book says because it will not apply to your unit. If your unit wants to use the official spruce green shirt then you are bound to follow the rules in the book. You can not use a piece or pieces of the of the official uniform and customize it for your crew. My suggestion is your guys decide on your own uniform, my group uses a hooded sweatshirt in the BSA catalog customized with their unit number and name and the Venture logo, its a lot less expensive than the green shirt and grey shorts and they love the look better than the green and grey. It is really that easy so see what your youth want, they make the decision not you.

Interesting thread and a topic I have thought long and hard about. Whether we like it or we don't Bush has been elected for four more years. So we can either waste this time calling each other names and blaming all kinds of things for the outcome or we can unite together as Americans and try to see some positive legislation come out of Congress, for a change, that will help make America an even better place than it is today. A four year stalemate in our governmental process will just bring us down as a nation.

Bob

No more questions until you answer the ones I asked in my last post. I assure you I was at Philmont in '02 and received wonderful training.

So Bob, now its your turn to answer my questions, if you can or cease in your witch hunt.

Bob

I think you need to reread this thread besides myself and Ed there was Barry, Fred and SR540 Beaver questioning your tactics on this thread alone. If we review other threads more names would come to light. So you must be doing selective reading or you did not understand their posts. As to Philmont I do not have to report to you Bob but the class was in the summer of '02, the trainer was named Frank and he was extremely knowledgeable both as a scoutmaster and as a scouting professional. You on the other hand I know nothing about your scout training or experience and whose credibility is highly suspect. I do not claim myself an expert as you like to do and bluff the people in this forum. I use the scout program with my troop with mixed patrols which works for my troop, and I could care less what you think about that. My troop is growing and advancing way above the national average, as yet we have heard nothing about your troop Bob, why is that? Maybe you either are no longer affiliated with a troop or maybe they are not doing so well in either case coming off like you do as the savior of the scouting program is pretty lame and proves to me how much more training you really need.

Geeze Bob,

I think you are getting rules and methods mixed up now. It seems that many here disagree with you and instead of justifying your comments you go off on some verbal tirade. Don't be such a drama queen Bob. You just can't seem to see the forest through the trees and I am sure your troop suffers with the result of your inflexibility.

Bob my point has been all along that all of us use the methods of scouting in our troop because we love the program. Just because some of us add things to help enhance the program does not make us wrong and you right. I think the number of challenges you have received on this thread from many different scouters proves my point.

Ok to the topic at hand:

Ed,Barry and I, as well as others I'm sure, have experimented with mixed age patrols and have had good success, and I for one will continue to follow this model. Second, we have had good results with changing the way the PLC meetings are done in our troops to make them more productive, we each found our own method that works best for our troops. Barry is right when he says that a program has large as scouting does not always fit in a small square box, "sometimes you need to make a few twists and tucks", a quote from a SM course at Philmont. In spite of Bobs opinions, "a good scout leader needs to think outside the box sometimes since not everything can be found in the books. Scouting is a living, breathing entity not a stagnant relic." , also from SM course at Philmont. So in spite of some scouters who never try anything original in their troop(Bob)those that do and are successful are to be applauded for keeping Scouting alive and an integral part of their boys lives, and because it keeps scouting growing. (So that we stay on topic Bob please keep your comments to yourself, thank you.)

Bob

They are all correct it is an overhand knot. I know a great knot tying training course you can attend, looks like you need a refresher. Maybe we can talk at Jamboree, let me know.

Bob,

The only one who has trouble with the truth is you my friend.

You may choose to believe whatever you want, I will get the members to verify in writing to you at the next meeting on council stationary if you like. Second, I used the word rules instead of methods but you know what I meant. Third, if you like Bob I would be happy to compare my list of training against yours anytime because I know you will come up short. You may have noticed how many more posters are questioning your replies Bob, I sure have.

Bob

You just don't know when to give up, your comments have become more absurd as of late.

At a recent council meeting the program committee, the SE and other council reps reviewed your comments on this thread. After a long period of laughter they commented how rigid and inaccurate your interpretation of many of the rules were.

So if they could not take your comments seriously how can you expect myself or anyone else posting here to take you seriously. I think your motives may be good but your delivery leaves a lot to be desired. So go ahead and accuse my council of not delivering a scouting program, we could all use another good laugh at our next meeting.

Ed, glad to see you back buddy.

I agree with Barry about Venture patrols in a troop, it really becomes more like two troops. Thats one reason we use mixed age patrols, it encourages troop unity, and we do have special events for the older scouts every so often.

Ed, our council has the webelos particpate in camporees in their similiar but seperate events run by the Venture crews. They receive their awards at the same campfire as the boy scouts. The webelos between competitions are adopted by the troops they will be going into and teach them to help with meal prep, etc. All the scouts really seem to enjoy the event. BTW, don't let BW get you down.

I agree with Korea Scouter that in our computer driven society more of our clerical form work should be able to be done on line, rather than driving to the council office.

Hello Owl

Our troop does something similiar to yours,saying the pledge of alliegance, burning it slowly in a fire while a bugler plays taps. It is a simple,solemn,respectful,and a memorable event.

God Bless America!

Hey Barry,

In my troop we have a PLC meeting every two weeks for about an hour. The boys seem more focused on their tasks and are much more productive. As I mentioned before we are still using mixed age patrols and they have been working well for 3 years now. The troop is still growing, adding 12 more this fall. The boys are advancing very well, the first class in one year program is also successfully working in the troop. We have a Venture crew that also is running well and helping with the troop as needed. Scouting is alive and well with these young people. Thanks for providing a positive environment to exchange ideas.

To all of my fellow scouters,

Let me go on record by stating that I love scouting and the program developed by the BSA and use it with my troop. The fact that we have altered the patrol method slightly to allow for mixed patrols does not mean I have abandoned the scout program. This slight alteration has worked well in my troop for over 3 years, and has helped me retain and advance the boys in the troop and contributed to the rapid growth of this troop. I attribute this success not only to the patrol method but also to the wonderful program of the BSA. In spite of what BW thinks, I think what we all do for our boys is commendable and giving them a sound program that works is worthy of high praise indeed. All of us I know give 110% to making sure our boys grow into decent men, sometimes at the expense of our own family time. I think Baden Powell would be proud to see what his dream has become, an oasis in a world of violence and hate. So I wanted to let you all know that I appreciate hearing about your programs and to praise, not criticize, all of you for the outstanding work you all do for our youth.

Bob

You and I both know what I posted was the absolute truth, and if people look at a variety of threads you have posted they will also come to the same conclusion. You know Bob that until an alcoholic or drug addict admits that he has a problem he can never get the help he needs, someday you may be enough of a man to admit to your own hostility towards others and your constant belittling and criticism of everyone who disagrees with you. If that day should ever occur then maybe you will finally be on the road to recovery and become a civil human being capable of dialog instead of diatribes.

Well Bobby,

If we look at your last 200 posts 99% are insulting, criticizing or out right attacking almost everyone in here. Ed and others are right you just spin things the way you want to. If you consider me pointing these things out to you in my posts as attacks against you then so be it. You are the bully boy here not me, and other than spouting out policy from books you haven't really contributed much of anything positive in all your recent posts, or any of your so called scouting accomplishments, which I believe are really few in quality and quantity. I wonder Bob, are you even active in Scouting or are you just an armchair quarterback?

Trailpounder

Your post just proves my point, maybe if you had gone to college your statements would not come off so ill informed and unintelligent.

Bob,

I have repeatly have shared my troop successes using the program and supplementing it with some original ideas and all you do is criticize, so go do your thing and I will do mine.

Zahanda,

I am interested in what you have to share with us. If you just ignore Bob and TP they will go away eventually. I hope you read my earlier posts about some ideas I and eagledad use in our own troops. There are a lot of free thinkers in here, Bob is just not one of them.