Backpacker

Bob

I guess they didn't teach you to read down there in Texas, just like W. All you have to do is go to the National BSA site, then go to the Venturing Division link and there are all the subcategories listed that refutes most of the information you gave on your posts, but it does require you to go past the pictures and do some reading which I doubt you will be able to handle, let alone understand.

BOB,

What I said is borne out on the National BSA website, you should look it up sometime.

Second you are still wrong about what division is under what, again it is clearly shown on the National site, so quit trying to throw that misinformation around please.

Third the rep we met with works for the Venturing division at National and we were talking about a local council exec. committee not the National one. So once again you misrepresent the facts with your own incorrect interpretation. My info comes direct from National, not the fictional world of BobWhite scouting.

Michael

Not to belabor the point, many councils have created a position for Venturing Chair/Coord. and that may not be in the National chart, but as the gentleman from National Venturing told us is becoming a common practice in councils with active Venturing programs. As far as the Commodore position an automatic member of the council exec. comm. the Nat. Rep stated he had not heard of that and felt that it would be at the discretion of the SE as to whether or not that was the case.

I do like hearing your perspective on Venturing as you really seem to know your stuff

Bob

The amount of misinformation you give out is amazing to me.

First if you look at any National structure flow chart you will see that Sea Scouts is now part of the Venturing division not the other way around, even though sea scouts has been around longer,that is straight from a National Venturing representative who just gave some training sessions here so please get it straight. Sea Scout ships have been decreasing at an alarming rate due to the high cost of maintaining a boat and insurance, not to mention the fuel costs. Due to this decrease it was decided to put sea scouting under the Venturing division as it is not large enough to warrant its own division.

Second, I don't know where you get the idea that a Sea Scout commodore is part of a councils executive board, it's not in any official publication. Most councils don't even have a commodore position to start with since most only have maybe two or three ships, and by the way in my council the Venturing chair is on the board.

When you give out this wrong kind of information you do a disservice to all scouters, so please check your facts first.

OGE

I think you summed up this thread very well, the BSA should not accept cash donations from any government agency. However that is very different from being able to use governmental resources for something like a jamboree. The DOD is required to put their troops through training exercises to make them mobile and combat ready and usually this is done in isolated areas out of public eye. The local Marine base in my district used to fly out a water buffalo for our district camporee and were happy to do it because it was part of their required exercise routine, and they usually had to dump the water, so they were happy to see it getting used. The point is some people think that this exchange with the military is a one way exchange and that is simply not true, they enjoy seeing their efforts go to a worthwhile cause.

Another example was an Air Force military hospital unit who was preparing to go to the middle east set up a first aid training site for our district scouts who got to complete their first aid requirements by working on simulated accident victims under the guidance of the medics. Their CO told me that the unit really enjoyed the experience and that the scouts kept them on their toes with all their questions. So if the DOD is going to spend all this money to train the troops on a regular basis anyway why not let them work with scouts or any other group who can also benefit, after all it sure beats the $1,000 screwdrivers or $2,000 toilet seats that are spent every year by government agencies using tax dollars.

I agree with the other posters who feel this will cause your troops numbers to decline. I would rather have a boy come late than not at all. While I do not agree that pushups constitute corporal punishment, unless the boys are pushed beyond their ability, they are in general a bad idea to be used for not being in full uniform or lateness, there may be some legitimate reasons that these things happened. The job of a scoutmaster is to build up a boys leadership and scouting skills as well as moral decision making not tear them down. This policy will lead to a decline in the troops morale and a big drop in numbers, and does go against the principles scouting is built on.

The guidelines in the Venturing leaders guide and the Venturing handbook state quite clearly that a 1st class scout can complete his star, life and eagle through the crew. Scoutldr is correct when he states that the scoutmaster may not be a happy camper, but it is the boys decision not the SM. As a Venturing Advisor you have the same authority as a Scoutmaster to pass him on his advancement requirements, Sea Scout ships have done this for years as did the former Explorer posts. If the boy decides to go through the crew it is usually because he is no longer affiliated with a troop, if he still is active with a troop then you should encourage him to complete his boy scout ranks through the troop. Thats how I advise my crew.

SMT

I think you nailed the issue on the head. It seems to me a general lack of following standard procedures at this jamboree. Why were supposedly experienced leaders pitching a tent under power lines, even a rookie scout wouldn't make that mistake. As far as the water issue, did you see how many of the adults were passing out from the heat, many of them grossly overweight. What kind of message does this send to the rest of the country concerning the quality of the BSA program,training and leadership, not very good. Look I love scouting for all the years I have been involved, but there are no excuses for the lack of leadership and guidance at this jamboree. It is not the press who is at fault, all they do is report the news in a way to get an audience. When things start to go wrong the management,the BSA needs to do some serious quality control and quickly before another problem pops up. Like any event the buck stops at the top, BSA National.(This message has been edited by Backpacker)

F scouter

If there were so many water buffalos as you claim on site why did they have to fly in emergency water and ice supplies, I think your information is faulty, as well as being unnecessarily hostile.

Whether you agree or not there was not an abundance of drinking water available and if you have ever drunk water from a water buffalo that has been sitting in the blazing sun for days you would know that all it is good for is washing and cooking, it really isn't very drinkable. Another point, the BSA did not deny the charge that there was not enough drinking water for all the participants. So F Scouter I think you need to recheck your facts before you attack. These kinds of errors of judgement will put future jamborees into jeopardy.

Even with the exaggerations from the press it seems that Jambo officials were not very prepared for the expected heat wave. There should have at least been water stations set up all over to prevent dehydration and heat exhaustion. Whenever you have to call in emergency help you have to expect the worst from the press. With better preparation by the BSA this whole incident could have been avoided. After all isn't our motto Be Prepared, it sure didn't look like it in this case.

Trail Day

That was a great story, I haven't laughed that hard in a long time. Thanks.

F-Scouter is right in his assessment of these extra charges. When I was a DE we were all told that every event we organized, inter unit, district or council had to make a profit. How was this determined? After adding all your expenses we were required to add an additional 15-20% on top and come up with the per head fee. This is a very common practice in most councils and I wish they were more honest about it rather than hiding it behind extra insurance charges, etc. In regards to the ship regatta I think that the SE looks at it as getting his piece of the pie for the council.

Kahuna

First, that Homeland Security ID has been issued to Mexican citizens who have used it to cross the border and stay in the US permanently using that id to obtain work and lodging here in the US.

Second, from your own definition, #1 seems to fit as well. (What does someone breaking into your home have to do with this topic?)

I have also read several recent articles about your home state wanting to seceed from the US and become an independent nation, does that make all Hawaiians anti American, no. You see intolerance has a wide range and scope more so than a mere dictionary definition, but how a culture or group puts it into practice

The US government has tried to deal ineffectually with this problem by putting quotas on immigrants such as Asian and Arab countries, so what happens, they get smuggled in on ship cargo containers by the thousands. As far as closing the borders, that is just about impossible, there are large areas on the Canadian as well as the Mexican borders where a person could cross and never see another person. It would take a humungous amont of money and manpower to close our borders that our government can and will not spend, why, because these illegals provide cheap labor to many industries that make large political contributions. An example is the agricultural industry, without this cheap labor you would pay $2-3 for an orange or an apple in the store like they do in Japan and Europe.

So OGE to answer your question, stopping illegals into this country is not and never really has been a high priority for the government,and the main reason is ECONOMICS!!! Immigrants have provided cheap labor that helped build our countries industries.

Carol and Kahuna

I said being a Christian and a scouter, either/ or.

However your posts just prove my point, intolerance abounds, as well as not really understanding the whole issue. Are you aware that Homeland Security is currentlyissuing ID cards to non citizens who cross the border on a regular basis so that they do not have to go through processing over and over again?(This message has been edited by Backpacker)

For a group of professed Christian scouters who live by the scout law I am surprised how many posters here are spewing forth such anti- Christian, redneck cracker hogwash. You can't have it both ways, either you walk the walk and talk the talk or you don't, otherwise you are just being hypocritical.

Are these people here illegally, yes, but even the INS and Border Patrol admit that they stop less than 10% of illegals. It is not like these people are taking corporate jobs either, they work on the farms and their labor keeps our food prices the lowest in the world, or work as dishwashers, laborers and other jobs that even our teens desperate for work refuse to do. Some say, well they collect welfare and all I can tell you is go to a welfare office and see what it takes to get on welfare, you would be shocked how very few qualify. However, there are many US citizens who are bilking the welfare system dry with phony disabilities because they are too lazy to get off their fat arses and find a job, this problem costs the government more money each year than illegal aliens, why don't we scream about that? Bush in an early campaign speech stated that he was going to give all illegals living in the US amnesty, which he never lived up too. As another point of information, if an illegal woman has a child in this country that child is automatically a citizen and both are allowed to remain here legally, that is the law.

So if we claim to be Christian following the example of Jesus, then like him we must be open and sympathetic to the plight of the poor, not judgemental. A scout is courteous, kind, helpful, friendly.... not hateful, prejudicial, mean or cruel.

It sounds like a great idea for building some fun and morale for your troop. I hope all of your guys have a blast at camp.

Scoutldr, ease up. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Scoutnut

I have throughly researched your question in all of the Venturing manuals and handbook and in none of them does it state that any GSA awards can be worn with the Venturing uniform, this was also confirmed to me today by a National Venturing program spokesman at a council meeting this morning. Bob is mistaken, there are no exceptions to this rule. You can call National and talk to the Venturing division to confirm this.

My Venturing Leaders Manual and handbook are right in front of me and in neither book does it state anywhere that any other medals outside the Venturing or Boy scout program can be worn on the uniform, not even for formal occasions. THe GSA gold and silver are NOT ALLOWED. By the way BW this was also discussed in Venturing Leader Specific Training I attended, so NAtional and Council are in agreement. Now who owes who an apology.

Bob

What I said in my post was not a personal attack it was to address the wrong information you gave about Venturing advancement and that information I gave was correct. Just because you led a training session doesn't mean you are a knowledgeable source on Venturing, it means you read a book and apparently not very well if you check the references I stated you would see you were not correct. Funny Bob, you state you are a scoutmaster, Sea Scout leader and now supposedly a Venturing Advisor, I find it hard to believe that you can perform all these positions concurrently. And I stand by what I said in my original post to you.

You are so right Scoutnut, with the talk of gold and silver I thought only about Venturing awards. You are right that only Venturing awards and a few Boy Scout awards are permitted on the Venturing uniform. Mea Culpa !

Sorry Bob but you are incorrect. Venturing Handbook pg 47 & 59 clearly state that there is a knot device for both the gold and silver award.

The gold white award bar No. 4200A, and silver knot No. 05027 both worn over the left uniform pocket. The silver award is allowed to be worn on the uniform at all times, if they do not wear the knot.

I think BW you should leave Venturing questions to those of us who have worked with the program for years and have much more training in that program.(This message has been edited by Backpacker)

(This message has been edited by Backpacker)

After all is said and done I can't really imagine any program within the BSA without some sort of identifying uniform. Whether it is required or not is irrelevant, it shows the youth are part of both a national and international movement much more vast than the scope of their individual units. From both a historical and traditional point of view the uniform is here to stay. While it is fun to debate what if, all the pros and con the scout uniform is a worldwide recognizable symbol and a shared bond with your fellow scouts.

Bob

POOR POOR Analogies, in the early days of scouting most of the boys did not have any uniforms and yet they considered themselves good scouts, are you saying they were not. The uniform did not make these boys scouts the program did and it is still true today. Uniforms have their place in scouting but that is not the subject of this thread.

The question here is what really makes scouting scouting, the program or the uniform ,and can scouting still be scouting if uniforms were no longer a program method by National.