Backpacker

As a crew advisor my teens look for an exciting program with opportunities to pursue a wide variety of activities. They also love to organize their program. Funny thing, even though a uniform is not required in Venturing my crew wanted something to identify them as a group, so they chose a hooded sweatshirt and a tshirt with the Venturing logo and crew ID. At council and district events they always get compliments on their sweatshirts, and on outings people are always asking them what Venturing is. So I guess if you don't require a uniform the youth will develop one of their own design. Would this work with boy scouts? I think National is already testing the waters with the introduction of more activity type of polo shirts, etc. I agree with JD's ideas on cubs and scouts does the uniform make the scout or does the program.

Since I never mentioned either Bob White or F Scouter in either of my posts methinks that thou does protest too much.

The only antagonism I see seems to be coming from the moderator supporting his good buddy.

Bob please tell me what your post has anything to do with the topic at hand?

A Disclaimer!!!

All of my suggestions in my previous post were meant in jest, as most of you surmised. To the one person who took exception all I can say is sometimes you need to lighten up in life and not take everything so seriously. After all, the acorn rarely falls far from the tree.

Great start Fuzzy

How about all SM's and ASM's must be fully trained, including Woodbadge in the first year or be drummed out as incompetent leaders who do not understand the program eliminating "all those leaders who do not follow the program."

All Boy Scouts who do not make First Class in the first year be kicked out of scouting "since they will never make Eagle anyhow and will just disrupt the troop."

All new leaders will be given a virtual troop,pack, or den for six months and their actions will be monitored online by those who are "experts in scouting" and pass with at least a score of 95% before they are given any live boys to work with. Those with less than 95% will be directed to 4H, YMCA, Girl Scouts so they can screw up those groups instead of the BSA.

If your units membership drops below 100% a commissioner or DE will come to your next meeting and rip off your badge of office from your uniform in front of your boys and select another leader for the group using "all that special knowledge that only they possess."

It is sad that there are some who would think these ideas would actually improve scouting.

BW

The same old rhetoric again. Nothing and no one is perfect neither the leaders or the program. The BSA of today is not the same as 20, 50 or even 90 years ago, it constantly needs revisions and has been revised to keep it relevant to the society it serves. Leaders are volunteers who must balance family needs, a job, and a troop of preteen and teenage boys and all of their individual needs. That is a lot to take on and as long as their troop is thriving and they follow the program to the best of their ability then NO ONE has the right to criticize their efforts because they don't do it exactly the way a person interprets the program.

So the answer is we have an imperfect system, program and volunteers both, and we do the best we can with what we have. Scouting has survived 90 years with this imperfection and will continue on for another 90. Instead of criticism I think we need to congratulate all scouters for keeping Baden Powell's dream alive for so many years, and giving so many youth a chance to grow into decent and moral adults.(This message has been edited by Backpacker)

What happened today in London was extremely tragic, however the fear of a jamboree getting attacked is remote at best. There are much more important and strategic targets these imbeciles have their eyes on. If you follow their history they always target areas that have economic or infrastructure importance, and will cause the major amount of disruption possible. A few thousand boy scouts just would not be that important enough for them to risk their resources. However these people are insane so anything is possible.

While I did not agree with Juris' ideas about scouting he did add a lot of passion and excitement to the forum, which I will miss. Some of his more outrageous stuff made me laugh, which we need to do more of when the arguments begin to get off topic and angry. I think most of us here at one time or another have posted things we later regretted caught up in the heat of the moment, myself included.

I love reading all the diverse thoughts in this forum whether I agree or not, there is a wealth of information here. It is my hope that we be more open to opinions that might be different from our own and make this a welcoming place rather than a forum for a small closed cliche of self proclaimed scouting experts who gang up on anyone with a dissenting idea forcing them out of any discussion and out of the forum. So long Juris WWW

"Since the BSA is not a government it can not be labeled using government styles."

But Bob you did just that in the thread comparing a troop to the US government. You again contradict yourself when you do not have a rule or regulation to quote. You can't keep having it both ways BW because your credibility has now become questionable in your replies which continue to show an inability to understand the issue.

As far as removing a volunteer your SE can give you reasons and procedures established by the BSA and given to all professional scouters during training at National, I still have my copy. It is nothing as simple and dictatorial as BW suggests.

Sorry Bob but your previous post on this thread speaks for itself, I just reread it,I never claimed the BSA stated anything just pointed out the error of your analogy and erroneous use of microcosm.

You can pm me with your personal comments in the future instead of going astray on the thread.

Juris

Your post is at the least absurd and at best a concocted fairy tale. Cubs do a lot to support the BSA and provide new members to boy scout troops. With each new post you continue to crash and burn, nuff said.

BW

Once again you are in error with your idea of what a microcosm of our society really means.

A reflection of our society does not mean what we were founded on but what we are today as a culture.

Without knowing the nature of the offense there is no way to answer this question accurately. You can quote rules and regs all you want however the BOR sole purpose is to determine if a scout has qualified for the Eagle, they are not to be a vigilante group deciding what is moral and what is not. The rules do not always cover every situation that might surface at the BOR. When a situation of this sort occurs the BOR would be better off postponing their decision and getting expert advice before lowering the boom.

If scouting was truly a microcosm of society, which it is not in any way, there would be a lot more of immoral and gay Eagle scouts which would mirror our society today. Scouting is supposed to instill values in the youth that far exceed our current culture/society. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

What I abhor is watching several US flags being burned in Iraq after 17,000+ have lost their lives fighting for those people and in Europe protesting almost everything American after liberating them in WWII and how it is widely shown on the media. A few nutcases here in the USA burning flags is insignificant by comparison. We don't need more laws what we need is a much better foreign policy. It is time for Americans wake up to the real dangers in our society, groups like the KKK, American Neo Nazi Party, these crazy survivalist and para military groups, etc. all which are undermining the fabric of our society today. Remember it was so called Americans who blew up the federal building in Oklahoma City not Arab extremists. If Congress really wants to do something lets get rid of these groups who hide under technicalities of the Constitution and work to bring our country down. Passing a flag burning ban in the US is like fighting a fire with a squirt gun, the intention may be good but the result is insignificant.

With the continuing drop in enrollment each year in the BSA it would not surprise me to see similiar changes occuring in our program over the next few years. With our quickly changing society the relevancy of scouting to todays youth needs to be examined very closely. The program we all knew as kids honestly does not attract the youth of today as it did us years ago. We can't keep turning a blind eye to this issue, we may not like it but it is a reality of today. Look at what is happening in Canada, Europe and even here, scandals on the professional level,selling off of assets, dropping interest by the public and the United Way, etc. Maybe it is time to restructure an even stronger program, taking the best from the old ways and combining with new concepts to present an even better program that will really interest the youth of today. The old stance of it was good enough for my dad and me it should be good enough for them is just a denial of the reality of todays world. I love Boy Scouts, but I do not want to watch it errode away to nothing because we refuse to accept change.(This message has been edited by Backpacker)

I think it should be obvious to most people who really follow politics that neither the Republicans or Democrats for the last decade, at least, have much to be proud of, both parties have their share of loons who love to mugg for the cameras and press rather than accomplishing what they were elected to do. The press are like vultures circling over the carcass of whatever politicians antics will make good programming or sell papers on any particular day. Blaming liberals or conservatives is counterproductive, holding our elected officials more accountable for their actions would be much more appropriate. As long as we keep sending these crazies back to Washington term after term we have no one to blame but ourselves.

BW

Now that you have attacked my post and others here as well, your last two posts were vague in content as to what points you were trying to make.

First,FCFY is not a bad idea as I stated in my post, but I agree with ED and others who state that if the troop is being run correctly that this will happen automatically for all the boys who really want it. I agree "you do not need to add things if you follow the methods and programs of scouting", to quote you BW from other threads.

I strongly encourage all my boys to get FCFY and give them ample opportunities to achieve that goal and most of them do, but that does not mean you turn your back on those who don't make it. All of us who have been through training and have taught should know that not everything in the scouting program is black or white and not every boy fits into the same mold. This do or die mentality of some leaders proves to me they do not truly understand the true mission or goals of scouting.

I agree with others that the mode of training could stand some real improvement and that many trainers need to instructed on how to give a decent presentation. When I went through Venturing Leaders Essentials in 2003 I went out of council to a team that had a great rep on their training methods and they were fantastic. I gave their names to my council to have them come train our council trainers and I wound up being placed on the council training committee. Now we have properly trained trainers. How many of us have sat thru trainings where the instructor just reads out of a pub for hours? If the training is done well than the leaders will better absorb the material and use it in their units, if the quality of the presentations are boring leaders will zone out and not really understand the full impact and methods of the program and not use them.

I think this issue is a two edge sword, on the one hand it is good to provide the boys with the opportunity to advance as soon as they master the appropriate scout skills. On the other hand we all know there are some boys who do not catch on as fast and need more individual attention, and some who could care less about advancing. So I feel it is how this idea is handled, if the SM gets up and dictates to the troop that all boys will be first class in one year in this troop the ones who do not make it will feel like a failure and drop out, that is not what scouting is all about. On the other hand if we tell the boys the ultimate goal is to provide them with the opportunities to advance in their first year as far as they can, up to first class then those who only make it to 2nd class will still feel they accomplished something positive. Too many SM's run their troops like a military unit with a do or die mentality and thats what really hurts scouting and causes boys to drop out.

Positive Attitude and Program are what really determines the success of any scout troop.

TJ

While I applaud your convictions you need to remember there are some posters here that see EVERYTHING as black or white, with no shades of gray, and you will never change their opinions on any issue. I agree that when you talk about declining membership in scouting that some of these curmudgeons are in deep denial because scouting is their entire life, hobby and vocation all rolled into one, and anything that addresses a weakness in that institution is usually met with hostility by this certain group.

On the up side though I still feel that the BSA, with all their faults, is still one of the best youth programs offered today. As a youth joining scouts, then as an adult becoming a professional scout executive, later on volunteering as a Cub and Boy Scout Leader, and now as a Scoutmaster and Assoc. Venturing Advisor have helped to make me the person I am today and have been a source of pride, accomplishment, and joy in my life. The kids of today are not getting a lot of morality teaching in the schools,or in the media, and sadly not even in a lot of the churches, so I am glad the BSA is there to try to help fill in this large gap. We are all imperfect, but if we do the best we are capable of that is all anyone can ask.

CNY

I agree that that quality unit award doesn't really mean that much since it is so easy to earn. Think how much money National would lose from all the patch, pin and plaque sales every year, probably the reason it is so easy to obtain.

I would rather see a quality program award specialized to each branch of scouting that takes some effort to receive and shows a unit progress by things like advancements, types of outings, community service,levels of training, etc. An award for quality should mean above and beyond the usual routine.

SW and Owl

What Bob states is correct there is only one COR for each charter organization, no matter how many units it charters. However the COR is also the only position that can have a dual position in a unit, a COR can also be the CC of the unit, which can be an advantage because that gets the CO more actively involved in the unit instead of just a name on the charter.

I still wear my lodge flap from when I was the OA staff advisor, my lodge is no longer in exsistence since my former council was absorbed by another almost ten years ago. So the flap for me is more for sentimental value than anything else, even if it breaks some uniform rule. I also wear the arrow ribbon. If I become involved with the lodge in my new council then I will swap flaps.

Some real good suggestions posted here on this topic. As a former Webelos leader myself I made sure my boys had an ongoing relationship with a troop, including participating in a few outdoor activities. In addition my second year Webelos received skill training that would permit them to get to Tenderfoot in the minimal time and make the transition to a troop very naturally. Of the ten Webelos scouts I worked with all ten went into a troop and made at least 1st Class, five of them went on to make Eagle. So I think finding some well trained SM's and well run troops, and allowing some interaction between the Webelos and the troop brings much better transition, rather than a choppy termination of one program and letting the boys go off on their own to find a troop, a formula for failure.

There was an article in my Sunday paper about how more and more kids have lost touch with nature and the outdoor experience, instead being glued to their computers, i-pods, gameboys, etc. As a result they do not have a connection with the idea that we are stewards of the earth, this is one area where I feel the scouting program is sorely needed.

On the other hand in our permissive society where money talks it would not surprise me to se the BSA cave on some of their membership requirements due to political and financial pressure.I hope they can hold the line but with all the changes in the world scouting movement I doubt they can hold for the distant future, time will tell. I don't see a breakaway group happening unless it focuses on electronic gizmos kids love today, but that would not be scouting. Look at Canada and England, BP is probably rolling over in his grave seeing what has happened to his program.

Gee Bob'

What ever happened to a scout is courteous, kind, cheerful, and helpful? Seattle had a legitimate question which SR answered very well, this young man was looking for guidance not ridicule. I hope you don't talk to other scouts this way when they ask you a question. Too much coffee is right.

Seattle, do as SR suggests and contact Terry he can guide you in the right direction.