Backpacker

Bob,

First you had your own thread to spout your nonsense and the people left you. So what do you do now, come in and disrupt this one. You don't get it Bob, many in here are tired of your same old rhetoric and could care less what you think about them or their program. So why don't you and Trailpounder have your own thread and leave everyone else alone. In case you still do not get it Bob you do not control this forum or are qualified to criticise anyone else.

Trailpounder,

After reading your posts for months now I haven't seen you give one original thought of your own ever. I know you love to jump in on Bobs coat tails, but never share anything but your prejudices.

OGE

I can give you a recent example, in the first Group Dynamics thread you closed it as soon as Bob went crying to you and Hops about me hijacking the thread. What a load of bull that was, you did not even give others a chance to respond because you back Bob every time.

Bob, you love to hunt and bait people in here, and don't tell us different because it is your standard MO and everyone knows it. You are what I like to call a chatroom predator and bully. I see the new reformed Bob did not last long, I never thought it would. Barry and Ed have been more than tolerant of your beligerance and your superior attitude. I feel you have shown your true colors and nature in here to the point that people will start responding less to you. As for me I enjoy verbally jousting with you and as your armor is chipped away the true Bob will be exposed. Part of me wonders whether you and Eamonn are not the same person, Eamonn being the good cop to your bad cop persona.

As to how my patrols reorganizes each year is done by my patrol leaders council who create balanced patrols of new and old scouts. I tell you all again these mixed patrols get the younger guys advancing faster with the help of the older guys who also keep advancing as they teach what they learn. The program works well, the patrols are evenly matched for competitions and activities and the boys are staying in. You can say three years is too soon to judge but in that time I have seen four other troops in the area fold. I got a call from the SE last night asking if I would do a training class on troop organization and alternative patrol methods, so the council has recognized this achievement.

My numbers come from the boys bringing friends, the community service and recognition we have received, great PR, the local schools let us do a display and recruit, and one small troop who had lost their SM and ASM asked to join ours. It seems every week we get a couple new boys checking out the troop.

The reasons I think we are so successful is that each and every boy from day one is welcomed as part of the group and is encouraged to do his best by a great and dedicated PLC. The adult support is also phenomenal allowing us to deliver a top notch scouting program. To quote the movie Field of Dreams, "Build it and they will come", and that is exactly what is happening. Nuff said. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Three years ago we started with just ten boys and two adult leaders and a mostly paper committee. Today we have over 50 ACTIVE scouts and growing every day, 25 ACTIVE ADULT LEADERS AND TRAINERS, and a involved committee of 20. Our council keeps those stats on all their units, and we have received a top performance award every year from them. Our retention is unreal, losing only one boy and all 10 original scouts are still active in the troop. The parental involvement is fantastic and all of them and the boys love the program being offered. So you can fault me all you want, I use all the methods of scouting, with an adaptation of the patrol method that is approved by the DE and SE in the council. This troop has been a blessing to the community performing all kinds of community service and received a special award from the mayor of the city. I want you to know that I do not take the credit for this unit, this has been a community effort. The older boys in the patrol help the younger ones advance quickly. We adult leaders can not believe the success but make no mistake about it,these boys are getting a top notch quality SCOUTING program. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

OK

Here is my two cents worth. Like Barry we have mixed patrols, when we break for part of the meeting they go to rank appropriate activities, this also serves to allow them to interact with other troop members. On outings, competitions, etc.they work as a patrol, the older helping the younger so that the whole patrol is successful. The older guys do get to do optional outings as a group to challenge their skills. You may say that this doesn't follow the patrol method of today, but it works well. It is the same method my troop used when I was a kid. It also allow greater flexibility when you have to restructure the troop due to attrition, etc. Our retention and growth rate is in the top 5 of the council. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

John,

I agree with Bob, wow, being the COR is the best position and is also the only position that can be a dual, a COR can also be the Comm. Chair. So you would have a influential role to both the CO and the pack.I started this way with my new crew until it was established and I had more administrative adults recruited. Once the pack is moving in the right direction you can relinquish one of those positions, if you desire.

Yes Bob,

Is it not the purpose of the forum a friendly interchange of ideas among scouters, not achieving a performance standard or storming for a position of power among the contributors? So I still say these stages of group dynamics are for groups to form a solid bond toward reaching a common goal. In the forum we are here to swap stories and ideas, but we all have different goals or reasons for participating in these discussions. We are not a single unit but a group of diverse scouters who are working within our own units.

Amen Brother Ed!

Bob, as was already pointed out to you, by Barry and others, these stages have no correlation to this forum because we are not patrol building towards a common goal. When people disagree with your criticism and demeanor you may consider that storming, in reality you just tick people off. In an earlier post to me you admitted that you do not consider yourself an expert in scouting, that was the most open I have ever seen you. Okay, none of us are experts in scouting but we are all doing the best we can to deliver the best program possible to our youth. We should be working together to openly discuss ideas openly and freely, even if they aren't in the handbook, and to help one another, not tear each other down. I for one would like to see the interchanges in this forum be more friendly and not adversarial. I will strive to be more positive in my approach to others, even with you Bob.

esm,

I stand corrected your dates are correct, I didn't check my resources this time before I answered you.

Mea Culpa

Actually Eagle, incorporation of the BSA did not happen until 1916 not 1912. Yes there were groups like Beards groups Boy Pioneers etc.,who after hearing about BP in England modeled themselves after British Scouts, and by wearing old WWI uniforms, which were not Boy Scout uniforms. These early groups ,answering Bobs question to me, were not "officially" Boy Scouts. In spirit and enthusiasm they may been the early precursor to the BSA but not officially. "BP wannabes" was not meant as a putdown but as to what these groups were modeling themselves after. In addition many of these early units, prior to 1912, did not even wear uniforms, except what army surplus they could obtain. But as I said I am sure these boys felt like scouts in their hearts, and I commend them for that.

I love the way Barry gets right to the core of this thread once again. The dynamics of the forum do not relate to Bobs premise, so the premise becomes false and irrelevant. So as I stated on a previous post, there is no correlation Bob.

Barry keep up the good work and those great postings of yours. Ed ditto on the invite, keep the campfire burning.

It amazes me Bob how you always have to find someone else to blame for the problems you create with your attitude and critcism. It is not the new members you need to look at, it is your own self indulgent attitude. This forum belongs to all whether they agree with you or not. So look down and deep inside yourself Bob and you will find the true cause of the problem.

NO correlation, and apparently very little interest in the topic. Carpe diem Bob!

Oh contrare Robert,

I have attended and completed Woodbadge here and at Gilwell. I also have been an instructor and will be again next year. When were you at Woodbadge last? What I said in my previous post was not meant as an attack just my observations.

So lets talk Woodbadge.

Lets see the catalyst was your insulting comments to all the other posters. The outcome was that these other posters united against you. The next step ought to be a reduction of critical comments coming from the catalyst, resulting in a more open and free discussion of ideas.

Patrol Method- a patrol leader who is a bully and always critical of his patrol will lose their loyalty and find himself alone.

Hows that for you Bob!

Bob,

Do you actually think that none of us in here have not had the same training or read the same resources as you? We are perfectly aware of the methods of scouting and follow them, even though you don't seem to get that. In training courses I have taken everything is not always presented as black or white, there are times where you need to experiment, as a wise trainer at Philmont once told me, and do what works with your troop. All I think Barry is trying to say to you is try to be open to new ideas that fit into the scouting program.

Barry,

Your post was eloquently presented and thoughtful. I sometimes come off angry when I talk to Bob, even though I respect his knowledge I guess he pushes my buttons and I shouldn't let that happen. I agree we should all be open to new ideas, thats what we are here for. So again thanks to you Barry.

Bob,

Once again you are in error, I understand program policies and methods just fine. I have attended every type of training, locally, Nationally and at Philmont. My program is rock solid in line with BSA program. My objection is what one poster stated, "you spin things the way you see them." You start with a rule or policy then twist it the way you understand it. Just because you have 5000 posts here does not make you an expert, even though you have many thinking that, and the way you interpret policy is not always correct, as we have seen here and on other threads. Bob while you have a lot of years in scouting, which I do respect, everyone else is not always wrong when they disagree with THE BOB WHITE METHOD OF SCOUTING.

Bob,

You did not read my post,I always follow the methods of scouting in my troop, I sometimes will try something new if another troop has had success with it. Second the BSA did not come to this country until 1912, so any lone scouts prior to that were not part of the BSA, just BP wannabes. I just feel that you are too quick to ostracize other SMs who are trying something new. I will tell you this from my experience using both methods mixed patrols do work and work quite well. Even BP himself used mixed patrols in the beginning. BP being the creator of Scouting I think would know more than some overpaid professionals at National.

BOB,

WOW Let me quote you, " Not everything we do as scout leaders is covered by policy". This kind of shoots down most of your previous posts where you quote BSA regs as being the only way to do things. So why the change of heart, or is it do as I say not as I do. I think the other posters here are right, you are twisting a method to try to fit this topic and it doesn't work.

I did not say that the scouting methods were optional, I said they were optimum. But as all scout leaders know there are times where in your particular unit where you may need some alteration. Case in point this thread, I agree with the other posters here who have mixed age and ranks due to troop size. And you know what Bob they work great, the older guys work and teach the younger ones, wait a minute isn't that one the methods of scouting? In any event Bob I usually agree with your advice, just sometimes you wave the regs like they are some sort holy writings free of error. Oh by the way check your scouting history, the first troops were formed in 1912 at the beginning of the BSA, along with lone scouts. Lone scouts were only in areas without an active troop, usually in remote areas of the country.

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)

The methods of scouting are guidelines not black or white rules. Yes, in an ideal situation they are optimum but we as scout leaders know the ideal in troops is rarely the case so we adjust to the situation at hand. I agree with using the methods of scouting whenever possible, but you also have to use common sense as well. Being flexible allows you to maximize your efforts as circumstances change. MOST troops do not do everything by the book all the time. Don't let Bobs idea of this way or no way discourage you from doing/trying something different. As long as you are not jeopardizing the safety of the boys and it works for your troop, even if it is not in the guidelines, then go for it. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

If you check Ebay under Boy Scouts you could probably find the originals from the 1970s, there is a lot of scouting memorabilia for sale at that site.

I have always felt the reason that the BSA does not want gay leadership is the fear that these young impressionable boys may want to emulate their leaders and follow a similiar lifestyle. While that might be possible the odds are very small at best. Even with that said I agree with the BSA position, if even one boy could be corrupted that is one boy too many. The Catholic Church is now under close scrutiny with priest sex scandals because they did nothing for so many years and now their efforts are too little too late. I hope the BSA remains firm in their position to protect our youth, unpopular as it may be. I do not hate gays, I work with several and for the most part they are decent human beings.

OGE

First of all I don't know what the heck you are talking about, the last thing I care about is your soul or your religious beliefs. The only reference I made to the Bible was to be good stewards of the earth. The rest came from people like Teddy Roosevelt, Gandhi, and other people of history, so I think you need to reread the posts. Second the suggestions for energy conservation came from govermental agencies, the DOE, Dept of the Interior, US Fish and Wildlife Service to name a few. Many famous scientists have stated that we use far more than our share of fossil fuel, they were talking about making minor changes in our consumption habits not radically alter our lifestyle.

I see you and Bob have the same philosophy that America has some kind of special right to overuse the worlds natural resources to maintain an overly indulgent lifestyle. That viewpoint is both naive and comes from a lack of understanding of the problem of non renewable resources. Trailpounders sarcastic comments just go to prove this selfish mentality. OGE, resent my comments all you want just don't misquote or misinterpret them as some sort of religious crusade as you just did.

Trailpounder, you go right ahead and support Bush even when you are paying $5.oo or $10.00 a gallon at the pump and thousands more young adults continue to die in the middle east.