Backpacker

Bob

I think that Tall Buffalo Guard did a very good job answering your questions. I hope you read the content of his post, as you don't seem to want to accept my sources. Another poster gave you some other websites to review, and I referred you to the DOE how much more do you want? As far as the free market system goes it does not give us the right to totally deplete a non renewable resource as we have global responsibilities to the rest of humanity. As to your superior and crass attitude and responses from you, Trailpounder etc., all I can say is someday that arrogance will come back to you in spades. Your small mindedness and attitude are typical of whats wrong in America today. Your "Its my way or no way" philosophy is what got Bush into the mess he is in right now, and I am sure has backfired on you many times in your life. You need to quit viewing the world with tunnel vision and see the bigger picture.

I know that I will never change your mind but maybe you will explore more of the resources given here so you can make an informed decision rather than your usual emotional one.

OGE the DOE produces annual reports about fuel consumption in our country by the leading experts in the field. Texas, California, et. al consume most of their energy in the summer with their air conditioning. And no DOE did not use the term blast, I did, their verbage was more in the line of overly excessive use. These reports are available by writing the DOE in DC.

Bob, the way you respond to most people in here I consider rude. If you had a valid point in this thread you never backed it up with any facts. You can attack me all you want as it doesn't really bother me. but one thing I will do in my replies to you is to show that the great Bob White is not the expert you have bluffed people into thinking you are. That also is true in the field of scouting. So Bob if you want to verbally spar with me all I can say to you is BRING IT ON !

Mr. White,

My stats all come from the US Dept. of Energy annual reports and are as solid as stone, whereas most of your ideas seem to come from your own imagination. I am being no ruder to you than you are to me and most of the other posters in here. You left once before for what you claimed as people ganging up on you, it seems you enjoy dishing it out but you can't take it. If anyone has trouble in here it will be you and your know it all attitude.

As usual Bob you again miss the point. The US consumption of fossil fuel is way above the average per capita than all the other industrialized nations of the world. Americans do very little to nothing in cutting down their consumption, such as buying fuel efficent vehicles, which by the way Bob are responsible for most of our fuel usage. The government, especially under Bush, has done nothing to force industry to take measures so they consume less. Lets talk about homes, most people in the middle of winter have their furnaces going full blast, all the lights in the house are on, etc, wasting energy. Did you know Bob that if people and businesses turned down their thermostats by just 5 degrees it would reduce our national fuel consumption by 20-25%. If people drove vehicles that got at least 25 miles to the gallon on the highway that would add up to another 25%. Do you think for a minute that most Americans are willing to make those sacrifices, no they are not. It will not be until the supply of fuel is so low and costs so much that we will be forced to make these changes. Destroying our natural wilderness areas to suck up every last ounce of fuel is not either the answer or solution.

It is government and corporate officials who have this holier than thou attitude that because we are Americans we have a right to waste 2 to 3 times more fuel than all the other industrial nations that we have had no incentives for conservation or alternate fuels research or development. Bob, their attitude is remarkably similiar to your own. The oil companies have effectively blocked alternative fuels R&D for over 50 years even though the technology exsists to move ahead. The solutions are not very difficult but will require a change in our lifestyles and consumer habits.

BW

It always amazes me that everything to you is always black or white. This issue is not "just that simple." There are so many alternatives to drilling at Philmont. Why you might know about scouting it is obvious your knowledge of conservation and exploration of natural resources is extremely limited. Several posters here have suggested alternatives to drilling in Philmont that are much more viable. Your simplistic response proves to me your grasp of the situation is an unrealistic and uninformed one. Geologists with the USFS, NPS and BLM are currently working on a plan to protect our wilderness areas from unnecessary drilling. As Teddy Roosevelt said, "We have an obligation to future generations to not only be guardians of our wilderness areas but to leave an even larger legacy for each succeeding generation." Every year we lose more of our natural heritage to development and greed. We need to stop driving these gas guzzling SUV's, etc. The USA consumes 30-40% of the fuel produced in the world every year. We care more about our own personal consumerism than the creation God gave to humanity. We are to be its stewards not its destroyers.

Three things that attract teens to Venture are the variety of activities available, that the teens organize and run the program, and that Venture is coed. Presentation is everything, I use slides and videos showing past activities and props which really draws them. If possible have other teen Venturers there to talk and recruit, they make the best salespeople. I would have the Venture table in a seperate area to distinguish it from the other programs and to give the older teens a place to gather and hang out. OH! don't forget some kind of treat, like popcorn or one year we had a dutch oven cobbler. Just use your imagination and get some input from your teens and good luck.

Damn smart dog if you ask me, the idiot got what he deserved. So the guy is taught a lesson I suggest he be neutered and thrown into a pound for about 6 months, then have him gassed with the other unwanted strays. Poetic justice would be served.

In this case I agree with the majority here that the fee is intolerable. I don't care if the council breaks even or profits on the extra junk or not, they do not have a right to increase fees for silly promo items. Most packs I know create their own welcome gifts for new scouts. Mandating a $20 extra fee is nothing but exortion by the council and is wrong, in spite of what Bob White thinks.(This message has been edited by Backpacker)

OGE

Thanks for the clarification, I knew it didn't look right after I posted it. I will refer to my Latin 101 text in the future, lol.

JohnD

I see this issue as a divisive one where both sides bring up valid points and that there are no clear cut solutions. BP brings up the point of the reality of todays society which I find valid but a extremely sad commentary. I still believe letting things go and flow in this forum is the best way to explore these issues, everyone one has seemed pretty civil to each other. I have been impressed with all the posters views.

Carpe deum!!(This message has been edited by Backpacker)

John D,

This is a politics and issues forum, things here get a little heated sometimes, its the nature of the beast. These posts are already monitored you don't need to be a referee. Let things flow and see where it goes. Let the people reading and posting come to their own conclusions, okay.

OGE, your support for Bush I think is based on a false premise. If you look at his positions in drilling in the Alaskan Wildlife Preserve, Yellowstone etc. you will see that he and Cheney go full bore for drilling if any resources are found, even when its not economically cost effective. Bush has stated numerous times that the US economy takes priority over its wilderness areas. This was also stated by Christine ToddWhitman, Sec of the Interior. We do not have the right to develop wildlands for little more than a quick temporary fix to a much larger problem and rob future generations of the few wildlands still left out there. If we want to preserve wilderness areas then we must send Bush back to Crawford, look how poorly Texas has treated their wilderness areas. I agree with Tall Buffalo.

FOG FOG

No hard feelings dude I wish you the best. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Fuzzy Bear , you are once again the voice of reason, Thanks.

FOG, Remember you attacked me first and hot and heavy I just defended myself. If I hurt your feelings, its unfortunate that you can dish it out but can't take it. Email me your address and I will mail you a box of Kleenex.

OGE, Thanks for your restraint with these posts.

There are two very strong viewpoints in here and as FB stated the decision will be made in November.

Fuzzy you are right on the mark with your observations, kudos to you.

FOG, If you weren't so sad and pathetic I would consider debating you further, but as it now stands you are not worth the bother. So believe your little fantasies all you want to. By the way thank you for the compliment of calling me a treehugger, there are more of us than you might think my friend. And no I am not BW.

Molscouter

Yes what you said is also true but the kind of methane fuel I was talking about was the type commonly found in agricultural production and processing. The type you refer to does occur underground but only in association with those other fuel compounds.

Fog

Your ignorance of this and almost every other topic never ceases to amaze me. Methane is a gas produced from the fermentation of plants etc, and is reproduced very easily in a lab,natural gas is associated with petroleum deposits in the earth, get an education will you. I would rather be a tree hugger than an uninformed knownothing like yourself. (OGE don't censor this one). Your arguments are so absurd they don't deserve comment, they contain nothing but hot air.

Eagle in KY

You would make a great spokesman for the oil companies since you really seem to buy into their hogwash. You sir and Fog give such ridiculous and uninformed statements to support drilling. First of all the environmental impact would affect the area for generations, pumping gas or oil out of the ground causes stress on the geological strata that could result in slip faults, contaminate underground water tables, etc. Then there is the surface impact, that the prior poster addresses, deforestation, road building, loss of habitat etc. There is a lot more damage created than a 4 inch pipe sticking out. I work for the Park Service and I have seen the damage created in many of our parks. I suggest you and Fog take some courses in geology and forestry before you try to defend these corporations that do not have the best interest of anyone but themselves and making the maximum profit they can. But I guess if you get all your information from TV ads as your arguments

seem to bear out, what can I expect.

FOG

All of your comments make very little sense. A need for gas or oil is not a carte blanc invitation to rape the earth of all its natural resources, altenative fuel source development has been literally crippled by the big oil and gas companies for decades wanting to maintain a monopoly and stranglehold on America, and the world. Electrical hybrid cars, methane gas,solar energy, pure grain alcohol fuel are just a few alternatives that these companies block development at every turn. Your pompous, cavalier attitude proves to me you have not studied the problem in any depth. So do some more reading in order to discuss this topic intelligently. No wonder the BSA has so many problems today, losing membership, etc. with leaders like yourself at the helm.

You were FOG, I think your outlook on this matter is irresponsible, but it does not matter cuz come November Bush will be gone. Alleluiah.

Personal attacks are not permitted. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Hey Boleta,

Thanks for your reply. Tell me what works good in your Venture group and what kind of activities do you guys enjoy doing?

Thanks for the welcome BadenP and for the advice. I know how different this program is from Boy Scouts and it looks like a lot more fun and less structured as well. I look forward to hearing more about the program.

Hello to All of You.

I am new in here, but I have a lot of scouting experience under my belt. I have been drafted to be a Venture Advisor this fall. I have been to all the training , except Powderhorn. I want to get together with other Venture Advisors to hear your experience of what has gone real well for you and what hasn't. I am real excited about this program and want to swap ideas.