MattR

We have a shed on the lot of a company with a lot of land. Maybe you could ask for someone to donate you some space. I'm not sure how much a shed costs but it might be better than renting a spot. We keep our stuff in the shed and also have an enclosed trailer there. It's not as nice as having space at the CO but it works.

Some joke about SMART goals goes here, but my eyes glazed over from the boilerplate description. I could honestly not figure out what this job was and how it has anything to do with boy scouts.

Oh, I remember the joke now. This person must have leadership development experience and yet no knowledge of scouting. Looks like they want someone to work on the Wood Badge program.

You bring up some good points.

13 minutes ago, SSScout said:

If the BSA can provide (female separate Troops/Patrols/Dens)

I'm guessing this is the bone of contention. While I'd like to believe that the BSA will do this my gut feeling is that membership numbers are the only thing of any real concern. If they were as interested in getting the patrol method working well in 90% of the troops, where scouts lead scouts under the wisdom of an adult, I'd be a lot more comfortable.

Food for thought: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hope-relationships/201402/brain-differences-between-genders

I think there are different levels of outdoorsy. We have some parents that like the outdoors (skiing, biking) but have not camped much and it wasn't too hard to get them involved. Maybe outdoorsy is not the right word. Maybe sweaty is closer

5 hours ago, Col. Flagg said:

 

+1 for SOAR as a website. 

 

SOAR does one other thing that really helps. Put an announcement on the front, whenever you want, and one day a week it emails a synopsis of all the most recent announcements. So, no flood of emails.

2 hours ago, David CO said:

Oh no. Nothing like that.

I don't mind scouts playing games and having skill competitions at meetings and events. That's fun.

It's only when people start ranking the scouts, and claiming that someone is a better scout than the other boys, that I get upset. If a boy is behaving himself and having fun at scouting, he is a good scout.

Scouting is about self-improvement and having fun. It is not about outperforming the other scouts. 

 

Now I understand, thanks. Yes, the point is to improve. I just sat in on a EBOR. The scout was a procrastinator. He also had been through a lot. His parents lost custody, are alcoholics. He was a year behind in school. Legally he's blind. But grow he did. Not the best leader I've seen but certainly has an amazing resolve and a cheery attitude. He went and took the GED so he could graduate 3 months early and start taking classes full time at the local CC. He's one of those success stories that make you feel good about scouting.

2 hours ago, David CO said:

I am often annoyed by people who try to take the competition out of sports, but I am even more irritated by people who try to put competition into scouting. Not in my unit.

A lot of scouts really respond well to competition. It's a form of challenge. A lot of games have competition that's based on challenge.

Is it that you see competition go so far that it takes over and replaces the scout oath and law? That I'd understand. At our klondike I added a few patrol vs patrol competitions because the scouts asked for them. I gave awards for patrol spirit and teamwork, but not for winning the competition. That was a nice balance.

@ParkMan, that's a great idea. What you describe is exactly what I was looking for and I asked if those things would be covered in WB. I was told yes (queue the magic elixir ad).

However there's the practical issue of the current WB group admitting that something else might be useful. People would go to your course and skip WB. That would cause a turf war.

@ParkMan, did the scouts choose tenderfoot in 3 month and did they come up with a plan to get there (with dates and activities)? I certainly believe that tenderfoot in 3 mo is leisurely for an adult, but for a scout and his patrol leader, who might be more interested in sharpening sticks, making fires and cooking dutch oven brownies, I can see 3 mo being a rush. Maybe rush is the wrong word. More like the primary focus. I work with troop guides and suggest that tenderfoot by the end of summer is a good goal. Better than that is have the patrol work as a team to help each other complete it by a chosen time. Rank is just a means. The goal is developing teamwork, friendship and having them make their own decisions. Besides, there is a lot of other stuff worth learning and fun to be had. Organizing menus and activities for a campout. Learning how to cook something that's edible on a campout. Making a patrol flag. Keeping everyone busy. Learning how to have fun while washing dishes. I think it's better to have a fun game that encourages scouts to want to learn the skills then just teach them the skills. It's certainly less efficient, but it's a lot more fun. At that age having fun and making friends is more important than "ranking up." I hate that term, but that's what some of my scouts have said, the ones that are more interested in rank than anything else.

Another way to make @Col. Flagg's point is that the training is so vague as to be pointless. The training could be tightened up and focused to what's important. The idea of having some concrete examples from which a SM could start from would be much better than a discussion on leadership. I went to visit a troop this week and the SPL was leading the troop. Unfortunately all the scouts just sat there and the adults made presentations. You could call that boy led because the SPL was the MC. Boy led but boys bored.

This is what I wanted in woodbadge. They could bring this back and a week in the woods doing training would be wonderful. Not much needs to be written.

1 hour ago, Jameson76 said:

 

 

Is it only me but look at the font. Now look at the font for the scout handbook 8th edition ('72-'79)

Bad Karma.

1 hour ago, Oldscout448 said:

Their technique consisted of placing the acts on top of the log taking a second log and beating the back of the axe head until the disappeared then they beat on the handle.  I told him they're going to break the handle they told me they knew but it was the only way they were allowed to use the axes.

 

Not to mention they might break the axe head. I have a really nice 1/2 axe that is a joy to use. It has a very hard and sharp head. The manual that came with it very clearly say don't use it as a maul. Mauls are designed for hitting the back of the head. Axes are not.

Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled .... whatever.

He should go over to Bryan and get us a smoke shifter

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Someone here suggested 12 man patrols, so that if only 50% show up, it's enough to function.  Might be something to look at.

We did that years ago and 12 people is hard for anyone to lead the rest of the time. And if 10 scouts show up on a campout then it's really hard to cook. I think the 6-8 is there from experience.

I'm also wondering if deciding who can make it a few weeks ahead of time, when these temp patrols would be set up, might help. We tell the PLs to give everyone a job. No matter how many scouts they have they should all have a responsibility. If a scout knows he has a job to do then hopefully that will help encourage him to show up.

3 hours ago, Eagledad said:

This describes our troop when I was with the troop. I imagine they are still using the program because the Scouts really liked it. Any scout any age can start and/or lead the activity, event, and trek. They have to provide a plan to get accepted. It has no effect on the existing patrols. We averaged 6 temporary patrols a year. 

Barry

I guess that means I'm either brilliant or really slow.

4 hours ago, ItsBrian said:

I think we should start a new thread about nobody answering their texts, emails, etc. 

I made this thread to share a system that has proven to work for me.

Since I'm the Dr Evil here, I humbly apologise. I don't want to start a new thread on this. But if you want to start a thread on ways that you have motivated scouts I'd be interested in hearing them, you being young and all that. However, the fact that you're even here on this forum means you're way ahead of the curve.

Asking for 10 full weekends a year plus a week in summer is hard on many scouts. Why this is is another thread, it just is.The result is mixing and matching patrols the meeting before a campout or, as in the case of my troop, small patrols on campouts. This tends to hurt the patrol method in our case or just chuck it completely where troops mix and match scouts.

How about borrowing a bit of venturing? Venturing has little structure and anyone can lead an event. I certainly wouldn't want to go that far but a little more flexibility could make things easier. Keep regular patrols but create temporary patrols for major outings like campouts, high adventure, a special event that only a few scouts want to do, or older scouts that might want to do their own thing. Rather than make up patrols the meeting before an event make it up a month ahead of time and stick with those patrols during the preparation and the event. After the event go back to the regular patrols. The PLC is still running the troop but for each event the PLC can designate temporary patrols and leadership. The benefit is more time for a patrol to get ready for an event, patrols that are a better size, and more opportunity for scouts to lead shorter events. The disadvantage is an added layer of complexity.

4 hours ago, JasonG172 said:

I completely don't understand it at all....I email and email and email...Do they not even look at emails anymore?

Whether or not they read it is not the question. The problem is they rarely respond. They don't remember that they need to respond. They no longer take notes in class because it's all on line. They really have little experience with the idea of notes. I'm sure very few ever write down a phone message. As I said before, the technology is not the issue. There are dozens of apps out there. My troop uses Discord. It doesn't make a difference what app they use.

In a way, text messages are  worse. If you're receiving a hundred a day then it's harder to mark a text as something you need to respond to. Technology will not solve the "I don't really care" syndrome.

1 hour ago, Col. Flagg said:

That's just it though, we have limited free time so we must choose to fix those things where we can maximize our impact. No successful troops in my district will even touch a district/council position. It is just not worth the time and effort.

I wish I lived in a different area. I would love to volunteer. But having lived here and experienced this since 2003 there is nothing that is going to change. The platitudes of "it starts with a single step" and "you must be the change you wish to see" are all well and good...and we apply that...to our UNIT.

I'd have to be insane to event attempt to try again with our district. I'd love the hours and weeks back I already gave them. But nothing will change here. I wish you luck in your area. Let me know where that is...I might retire there.

I'm not saying fix the district. I'm saying ignore them and work around them, much like what @TAHAWK saw. I'm not talking first step, I'm talking only step. Make the world a little better. Get a couple of SPLs together to plan their own events. If your PLC is up for helping another troop have an ASPL work with an SPL from another troop that would like to see how to do it right.

I'm in Northern Colorado. We're wondering when our council is going to get folded into the Denver Area Council (they have big donors). Our council is so broke they're thinking of having weddings at our scout camp. Imagine the bride, at the outhouse. Yeah, this is really going to happen. I have no idea what the Denver council is like.

20 minutes ago, Col. Flagg said:

But you can't change anything at the district or council level. Why? Old Men's and Women's Club. The WB'ers run everything and if you're not a WB'er then your ideas stink. Or you volunteer, spend hours getting your good ideas put together and supported by the unit only to have some district or council leader poo-poo the idea and literally force you to do it their way. I could go on and on and on.

So that's why many of us, myself included, have stopped doing anything for the district. They are like parasites. They will latch on to you and drain you of your energy without any benefit to you or your unit. So I choose to focus on my unit and make it as good as it can be.

I am sure there are good councils and districts out there. I am not fortunate enough to live in one of those areas. Having tried repeatedly to help "fix" things, I realize it is a futile effort and not worth my time and effort.

We can use your help. What job do you want? I promise you nobody will give you grief or tell you what to do. There are not enough people to do that. We end all of our roundtables by having an after meeting at a bar. If you like beer we have a lot of brew pubs in town. It's very laid back. Do you want to help crews? Training? Help packs recruit? Name it! We can use your help. Can you make tonight?

I have heard of the woodbadger mentality you talk about. I have seen it and I appreciate your, um, how can I say this, disappointment with it. I took woodbadge and got a few things out of it but it certainly didn't impress me.

So there you have two extremes, the old boy clique (dead weight) and ready to turn out the lights (a vacuum). It's easier to walk into a vacuum and make things happen. My challenge is keeping it small because I'll be doing most of it. Dead weight is harder. This is an aspect of leadership that is not taught at woodbadge. You have to carve off something that nobody can butt in on. A troop or crew is exactly that and that's what you appear to be doing. There are other ways to do this. If there are other troops or crews in the same situation as you why not have a campout where all of you come together and do something fun? You don't have to call it a camporee but it essentially is. What can the council/district do? If you want to encourage scout leadership and require all PLs to do something before hand, then do it. You've now replaced the camping chair and training. And nobody can get in your way.  I know, it's not very scout like. But if half the troops/crews in your district decide to join you then you've got something.

Hmmm, no. It's not an eagle project in my opinion. The principal provided the drawings and you're providing the labor. Painting a cart is not an eagle project. It may be a nice service project.

What I'd do if I were the scoutmaster: The principal asks for a vague idea. In this case a cart. Since the principal has already given an exact plan it's not too much to ask the scout to design a drawer. The scout figures out the details and asks a lot of questions to make something useful. All the details including figuring out how to make drawings. If he doesn't want to learn a sw tool that's okay. But he needs to make drawings and part lists and exact dimensions of what needs to be done and in what order. He should have a plan with all of that in it so it's good enough that he could give it to someone else and they could build it. As for building it, he can do everything other than work the power tools. He can find another adult to do that. You don't need to be there other than to say Stop! You're about to damage my equipment or kill yourself. He can learn how to use the tools up to the point of turning on the power. Show him how to make sure the cut is straight and exactly where it needs to be, just don't do it on the final project. If he wants a hole drilled for a screw he should know how deep and what sized bit. He can use wood clamps and glue. He can learn how to hide the screws or he can build it so the screws show, that's not your decision. The adult actually doing the drilling should be coached to do as he's told and no more.

However, I'm not the scoutmaster. The fact that dad is the eagle coach means, to make a long story short, none of this will likely happen. You can talk to the scoutmaster with your concerns. You can decide what you're willing to help with. And you can say yes you'll help or no you won't. I am impressed that you asked.

The thing I've always liked about venturing is that advancement is not such a big deal. I honestly think it's truer to scouting then boy scouts. Adventure and fun. The problem I've seen is that the parents don't really know about it and so there's little motivation for it. Also, the scouts that I've seen aren't really prepared to lead when they get there. The girls have little experience in the outdoors. The result is a very anemic program. I'm sure there are some good units but for the most part it's a bunch of kids without much motivation.

I'd be more interested in working with crews but I think it would be easier if they dropped the age so that leadership and teamwork can be the focus while they're young and more receptive. I do think coed troops could honestly help crews as the girls would have more opportunity to learn some outdoor skills and also make friends at an age where that's critical. There are some kids that just want the adventure and fun, don't really care for the MBs and ranks and don't really fit in with the boy scout program.

Rather than have a troop create a venturing crew for older scouts (which I know, does not work) how about a venturing crew create a troop just to handle the younger scouts until they're old enough for venturing?

You're asking what has the same thrill and impact as a flaming arrow without the flame or the arrow (sounds like a Five Easy Pieces quote: "A chicken salad sandwich. no butter, no mayo, no lettuce, hold the chicken").

How about replace the point on the arrow with a dull point? Or make the entire lake a shooting range and get the RSO or whatever is needed for archery (and place a target at the other end of the lake). Nothing will beat the flame but even a glow stick would be fun to watch. As for arrows falling into the lake get a canoe and go find them. The scouts could have fun with that.

17 hours ago, David CO said:

Everything council is bad. They're the bad guys.

That's a big brush. In my own small way, in my own small corner of the BSA universe I'm trying to make a difference. I'm the new district camping chair. I put the kabosh on a change the last guy did as nobody ever asked the SMs what they wanted. I'm pushing hard to get scout input for what the camporees should include. At klondike last weekend I had said the scouts want more patrol vs patrol competition and I was told that was a bad idea as it's hard to match patrols for equal sizes, ages, abilities. So rather than fight it I said let's have an experiment. In the morning we'll do the old model of patrols competing against themselves and in the afternoon it will be patrol vs patrol. The scouts loved it. They were hollering and screaming and practicing. I gave them ribbons for scout spirit, teamwork, and scoring in the morning events. For the patrol vs patrol the winner got bragging rights only. They had fun and one parent, that couldn't go, called me Sunday night and thanked me.

I also know nobody is going to complain enough to fire me as nobody else is around to take the job. Maybe your council has enough volunteers to form some hard cliques but we will take anyone.