MattR

Well it just got escalated.

 

...

 

The troop is no longer fun anymore.

 

We had a parent bring a younger sibling once. Although we talked ahead of time and he promised he'd keep his son away it didn't quite work out that way. The younger son kept showing up. The dad just happened to cook plenty of extra hot dogs and had a patrol come over.

The good news was a few months later some of the older scouts were talking, one of which is gay, the younger scout heard that he was gay, told his parents, everything exploded, and the family left. Either way, I can imagine that just a few siblings could easily become a huge distraction.

I never really had problems with parents becoming a distraction and I suspect that's because for a good 8 months a year it gets below freezing on our campouts and those that don't get it don't like camping.

I was, however, frustrated with parents that wanted to jump in and solve problems for the scouts at meetings. The idea that every problem could be a learning experience for the boys just doesn't seem to be soaking in.

The University of South Florida are 'The Bulls'; the women's teams are called "The Lady Bulls". Yeah it is stupid but there you go.

 

I'd hate to be the guy that walks up to the female athletes and says "you will now be known as the Cows." He will soon become the Steer.

I just want to give a few thoughts.  I am not a current scouter, but have been an ASM and a UC.  

 

When I heard the announcement, I'll admit that I was excited.  I have a daughter in kindergarten, and would love for her to have the opportunity for the experience I had in scouts.  I looked into  GSUSA in our area.  None of the girl scout troops I talked to have any interest in focusing on the outdoors ("that is what camp is for").  They all seem really focused on business skills (cookies) and crafts. None were interested in dad involvement and most told me that they didn't allow fathers to participate. The one AHG group in the area told me that they felt it would be inappropriate for a male to come along on trips, but I could come if my wife was there. 

 

To say I was disappointed would be an understatement.  Now, I am hopeful.  I just hope that there are packs in the area willing to go "co-ed."  I think there was a hole in what was being offered to girls as far as scouting type programs go.  I can't imagine there will be any need to change the cub program at all, and I really can't find anything in the Boy Scout requirements that will need to change. I imagine that the OA will be the real sticking point. My guess is that we will see a co-ed OA with a drastic change in the way ceremonies are handled. 

I went through the same thing with my daughter over a decade ago. The gs troops thought I was a predator and my wife didn't have the energy to do it. I did but there was no program.

One of my only regrets as a father was not having my daughter enjoy scouts like my son did. It was easy finding something to do with my son. Scouts was easy. It was always a struggle with my daughter. I hope it works out for you, mds3d.

This is likely a personality issue that blew up. The scout was not thrown out of the pack, as previously reported. He ended up in a different den within the same pack. We hear the mom's side but not the den leader's or pack's side because they can't talk about it. Mom immediately posts a video to get attention rather than talk to the CC. I have no doubt the mom and den leader butt heads over politics. So what's new here? Pushy mom, tired DL, hot potato questions with a loon politician. Surprise! Scout Changes Den Because of Personality Conflicts Related to Politics, news at 10.

I don't know about "anger" and "animosity" but I can tell you that the average college or university administrator is probably at least as "fed up" with "helicopter parents" as some Scout leaders are.

I've heard of plenty of sports coaches that also have problems with some parents. "Why isn't my son first string?" "Why don't you play him more?"

Again, it's only a few parents but they make a lot of noise. I had between 100 and 150 scouts during my tenure as SM and something like a half dozen of their parents were really obnoxious. There were a lot that learned, many that thanked me, and probably some that left.

More moms have this problem than dads. I think the only way to keep your sanity in these situations is to spread the load. The more people that understand this the better. It starts with a class on how scouts is different from cubs. They also have to understand that the aim of scouting (the parents' goals) are not the same as the methods (the scouts' goals). Then when they complain about their son not being able to do some advancement someone should respond with "wow, too bad, but I don't really care if your son gets eagle or not. What I do care about is whether he learns how to make his own decisions and solve his own problems. Since I'm talking to you and not your son, apparently he's not doing what I'd like him to do. This is a problem. How are we going to fix that?" One of 3 things will happen after this. Mom will get mad and take her son to another troop. Mom will get mad and quietly disappear and not bother you anymore. Mom will say "oh, I didn't realize that." It might actually take a few rounds of this but you get the idea. All of these outcomes solve your immediate problem.

You may think it'll be better at another troop but I doubt it. There are only a small number of parents like this but they make enough noise to sound like all the parents.

My thoughts are that there are fewer points:

1) Mass merit badge classes is a problem. Yes, it's easy to sign scouts up but many don't want to do the work (they didn't even really want to sign up, they were likely told to). So, the blue card issue, the fact that few want to do the MB, and your reputation are all related to this.

2) Some scouts really enjoyed it. That's the silver lining. By the way, not only do you have a bad reputation you likely also have a good reputation from those that enjoyed the class. I've had numerous scouts thank me for pushing them beyond their comfort zone. Nothing beyond the requirements, just do a good job.

That's a call for encouragement if I've ever seen one. Yes, herding cats boys is a challenge. Speaking in front of tigers is a whole lot different than speaking in front of adults. It can also be a lot of fun. Don't worry about making a fool of yourself. In fact, that can be a great way to form a bond with them. Getting pied is good. Be silly. It will get easier.

I had a scout that was terrified of talking to people and yet he completely enjoyed making up stories and eventually did stand up comedy.

I'd suggest have a plan and don't worry too much when things don't quite follow it. Let's be honest, when your first child was born weren't you also worried? There's no manual for being a parent and being a den leader is a lot easier.

I also concur. Given your list of points, that troop has troubles. How about looking for another troop, without your son, while he takes a break. Find one that doesn't have the problems you've seen. When the next group of webelos bridge over it would be a good time to show your son new troops.

Honestly, I don't know why you stayed as long as you did. My son enjoyed his troop but he also has the personality that he'll stick with something, good or bad, and not want to change. If that's the case with your son then a break will be good. There is a huge difference between troops and most scouts and a lot of parents don't understand that.

I’m glad my Scoutmaster allowed us to explore. I know he took heat from some other leaders but his rule was we explored as a patrol. We had to have our ten essentials with us and we had to give a return time. His one rule was no swimming (bsa rules). Other than that we could do what we wanted. We basically hiked around and found a place to hang away from adults.

I did something similar. I told the scouts it was not allowed, why, and that my neck was on the line if they screwed up. I also told them if I found them screwing up then nobody would ever get to do it again. The result was they took the event seriously and they never had problems. It was a great way to form trust between scouts and adults. Something about making lemonade from lemons.

There's one snapshot in time (your asking the younger scouts to do something) and no context. Just my two cents but this looks like a typical team failure. You tried to lead and they didn't follow.

I may be wrong but here's my 2 cents. I've noticed that before there can be leadership there needs to be teamwork. A lot of scouts don't understand the basics of teamwork. Without teamwork things can get Machiavellian real quick. Assuming you don't understand that reference, if there's no teamwork then it's really all about power. You're the SPL, do the scouts ever listen to you? If there's no respect between you and them, either way, then they won't listen. They may know that they only need to listen to adults because the adults have power over them. It might be that the younger scouts have figured out that if they whine to other adults about how you're such a hard ass, and the other adults come over to you and tell you to back off, then the scouts still don't have to do as you say. BTW, where was their PL in all of this? Were you overstepping and doing his job by telling his team what to do?

Why should these scouts listen to you? If it's just because you're wearing a patch then you're going to need the authority to bring the boom down on them if they don't listen. You need more power. However, that's not going to end up happy for you or them. Wielding power to get what you want is not what scouts is about. Rather, developing teamwork, looking out for them, giving them a say in decisions, are things that indicate that teamwork is developing.

Assuming I'm right and there really is no teamwork within your troop, since you're only 15 you have plenty of time to change this.

I could also be wrong.

Yep.  Move Star, Life, Eagle and Merit Badges into the 14-18 age range, make Scouts all about 1st Class Skills, Summer Camps about having fun, etc.  

And the 14-18 age range don't need fun? It all has to be about fun.

One thing not mentioned yet is that once the commitment has been greatly reduced it's fun again.

What I'm worried about is the cute 15 year old girl that makes all of the boyscouts act like fools.

 

Well, as I tell the adults, don't waste a good problem. After the first boy does this pull him aside and ask him why. It could prove very useful for him. Honestly I would have preferred making that mistake in a situation where making mistakes is okay rather than in the high school lunch room. BTW, girls have a way of making fools of themselves as well.

Maybe one man's useless facts are another man's great treasure.

How about having each patrol build a giant contraption from poles, pulleys, ropes, levers, and wheels, that uses a lot of double half hitches. Then they'll have their own need that's beyond just making Brian happy.

Yep, sounds like me about a year ago. I always thought I needed to step down before I got angry. I've seen that and it doesn't look good. When you're getting your wife and boss mad something is out of balance. The good news is once you announce the date you leave (and don't let them give you the line that you have to find your replacement) things get a nice bit easier. Go take your wife out for dinner, the night of a scout activity. It'll be good. You deserve it.

A sensible person might imagine that the BSA had consulted with other international groups before making these plans. I'll leave it to you to indicate how realistic that is.

Snort! <spewing coffee across the room>

Plans? We don't need no stinkin' plans! Case in point. Last night we were informed that we needed to use the new software system for uploading advancement info to the council. But the new system does not work while the old system does. Q: Why should we use the new system if it doesn't work? A: Because we need to get everyone onto the new system. Q: But it doesn't work. A: It does so much more than the old system.

Slap head repeatedly because it feels so good when it stops. Back to our regularly scheduled program...

let's talk about differences between how boys and girls do things. I've heard several UK scouters say boys and girls solve problems differently. The boys are more adept at making it up at the last moment and the girls tend to think, or likely talk, things through. If the girls are better at planning and organization, do they also tend to take leadership positions more often than the boys? One of scouting's greatest strengths is giving kids an opportunity to lead. I'd hate to see the boys get less opportunity for that. Granted, there are plenty of other issues preventing this in the BSA (mainly related to the lack of a plan from national).

The scouts have a problem. Make sure they understand it then encourage them to solve it. This is an opportunity for them to learn how to solve a problem.

Hi Peter. Welcome to this forum, and thanks for your input.

Usually for us it's an issue for high adventure trips. So, we give first priority to those that help out the most during the year. Summer camp would be a bit different as it's a good way to get new parents involved, excited about the program.

However, there is a group near to us where it's 2 Beaver Colonies are full and they have over 60 waiting!!!

 

Sorry, straying off topic now.

Maybe, maybe not. Either way it's called a high class problem.

What are the ratios of boys, girls, men, and women in the 11+ age ranges of UK scouts?

One of my concerns is finding women that want to do the more challenging events. We've had moms that will go on one or two and then they're done with that while the dads love it.

One thing that sounds different in the UK are the ages of the adult leaders, some of which are not adults. (I hate to say it but when the UK scouts talk about back in the day when they were scouts they're talking about the 90s whereas this forum, and BSA in general, seems to have a lot more, ahem, maturity.) Given that the ages of each type of scouts (beavers to network) is about 3-4 years and we have scouts from 11-18, it's different. It sounds like scouts from one age level can help lead at a lower level. Is that true? and does it happen very much? If so then the issue I see coming wouldn't happen in the UK.

My other concern is whether there are enough girls to form viable units. In big towns I don't see a problem but small towns is different.

This policy sounds like a mess looking to happen, and it did in the form of two dads.

There is gear each scout owns and pays for and takes care of and there is gear the troop owns and pays for and takes care of. There is nothing inbetween. Partial ownership rarely works out.

The idea of patrol ownership is great but a patrol is part of the troop. The troop could give a patrol a budget and they could buy what they want. If they run out of money then they could have a fundraiser, for their patrol. The scouts earning money for their patrol would be a much better lesson than the adults buying gear for partial ownership in a condo, err tent.

Disposal of gear is easy. The troop owns it and the PLC decides. The emotions will not be so high because the parents won't buy anything. They may make donations at worst but hopefully they will have encouraged their sons to earn the money.

Now, how you get to this is another problem.

It would be really nice if there were a well done bit of training that a UC could point the SM to that described how it should be done. That way we could avoid this discussion about over stepping boundaries. Unfortunately, such training doesn't exist. What's left is the UC trying to find the right balance. I think it's great. Rather than perfection the goal should meerly be improvement. Just a hunch but the SM, if he has a vision of what boy led means, isn't sharing it.

There's nothing wrong with anyone having that discussion with him. I think what people are worried about is the tone of that discussion. If it's confrontational than of course it will not work. But if it's more along the lines of I see problems and your leadership is needed and what is your vision, plan, goals so the adults can best help then it's quite possible the SM will welcome the help.

Doubling in size won't be good or bad so much as a big change. The question is who will be ready for the change? The adults will react faster so I think you're right that they could take over. I went through big growth spurts twice and there better be a plan with everyone on the same page or there will be problems. Unless you've dealt with that many new scouts before it will be new. My guess is neither the scouts nor adults know what is coming. There are lots of questions that the scouts should have answers to. What do the new scouts need to learn and in what time frame? Who will teach them? How will it be made fun? How will scouts be prevented from falling into cracks? How will problems be identified and solved? As I said, I doubt if the adults have answers to these and the scouts won't know they need to have a plan. The adults also need a plan: how are they going to prepare the scouts for this?

My suggestion is bring it up as an opportunity for the scouts to take on more leadership. And along the way the adults can be trained as well. I would not go around the sm. This should have his backing. If he isn't concerned then there's a chance to get someone that is concerned to help the scouts get prepared.