MattR

8 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

So earlier this month, Congress received the Report to the Nation 2024, will it be publicly released?

Well, I suspect I know what the results are. To put it mildly, if the report was good news then we'd already have it.

I'm still stuck on there was a scout troop formed within an internment camp. Or was it something else? The point is Simpson was in the same patrol as Mineta. Anyway, for all the grief going on in the heads of the people that created these camps it seems the locals didn't think much of them because they had their kids playing with "the other" kids. That could be an interesting story.

I'm sorry, but that was hilarious.

Though I will be on the lookout for really old first aid kits

9 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Good story with photos in link below. "Novyi Sokil is now one of three functioning Ukrainian Plast camps in the United States."

https://www.npr.org/sections/the-picture-show/2024/07/16/g-s1-7730/how-ukrainian-scouting-culture-thrives-in-the-woods-of-western-new-york-state

 

I like it. Very much about community.

@BetterWithCheddar, I think that's about the same age my son got fed up with cub scouts. We took 2 years off and came back in time to do webelos and then join a troop. Kids in that midrange of cubs can be so far apart in maturity. Anyway,  for us that break really helped.

BTW, my son now has his own, so this was a long time ago.

11 hours ago, MrJZhu said:

The thing is that on a lot of campouts, if it was done that way, each patrol would consist of like 1 or 2 members. That is why eating patrols are done. At the same time, I don't think even if I proposed that that it will go through because I just don't think that the troop would want mandtory outings. We require camporee and still some scouts do not show up. @DuctTape

If the only patrol activity is eating then that raises a question. What is going on the rest of the time? Is it fun, challenging or in some way memorable? If so, then do them by patrol. If not, then it certainly explains why few scouts are going.

Another challenge is whether or not there are scout leaders. I'm not talking about someone with a position of responsibility patch. I'm talking about the scout everyone wants to hang out with because they create fun. Those people need the patrol leader patch and support from the adults to put on a good program.

Here's an idea for you to try out being such a leader. Suggest a competition between patrols to create the best patrol flag. Bling is good. Flashing lights are great. Spend part of a meeting for patrols to think about ideas and another meeting to make them. The hard part will be finding material so ask the adults if they could help with that. This is the type of activity that can be fun, create good memories and help patrols develop.

On 7/10/2024 at 5:37 AM, RememberSchiff said:

"Again, the best way to prepare for heat-related illnesses is to prevent the illness."

I remember back in the day, wearing a cold-water soaked, full-size necker.*

I do worry that global warming with more frequent, severe storms and heat waves will cause the extinction of summer camp.

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/safety-moments/heat-related-illness/

*Note: Though hard to find on the trail, wrist dipping in a cooler with ice water mix also offers relief too.

I think better relief is a wet, cotton t-shirt. Or a wet bandana wrapped around your head or neck. We got some fantastic neck wrap things at a volunteer thing. They weren't cotton but they were wonderful.

I guess this only works if the humidity is low but that's where I live.

I don't know the answer but if you looked in the guide to safe scouting and can't find anything then they likely don't care.

Your other option is call the camp and ask. They're usually quite helpful.

Good luck and have fun. It's a good summer to be in the water.

If you're using an off brand web browser, say Firefox for example, try something more mainstream, such as Chrome. I've had all sorts of problems with user interfaces on Firefox by companies that probably only tested their sw on one or two browsers.

This is nothing but a hunch.

@qwazse, I beg to differ. I would not make a good cse.

I'm not sure how much emphasis UK scouts puts on school work type advancement or King's scout vs fun and adventure, but Grylls certainly belonged to the later.

On 6/17/2024 at 8:34 PM, mrjohns2 said:

I’d like Jocko Willink. He would be awesome. Or maybe that is just me. Mr Beast? 🙂

I had never heard of him before your post so I googled him. While some people focus on his being super competitive, sucking up the pain, etc, what he writes seems a lot more balanced. Eg: competition is good but too much will ruin your life.

Face it, Grylls used to hollow out a yak and sleep in it to stay warm.

Think of how many scouts knew nobody else. Add to that that the scouts knew who the chief scout was and that's an impressive tenure.

I wish him the best, and that the BSA could find such a person

22 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Ed O'Keefe reports on a scout planned 10.5 mile trail of U.S. history in Paris.

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/the-history-of-boy-scouts-in-france/

 

The page is blank.

I once camped in a US graveyard in France as a scout. I went to Normandy with my parents but that would have been a great scout trip.

2 hours ago, Tron said:

"No one see's scouting in the community anymore so they think scouting no longer exists."

Fewer people read a local paper anymore, where news about scouting used to be.

2 hours ago, Tron said:

"bad experience/didn't like the unit, and people don't know they can be a member of any unit not just the one next door/at their school/what they were told".

Bad experience/ didn't like the unit is why what percentage left scouts? If they had said no time, not interested, etc then it's an issue of other activities crowding out scouts but a negative experience is a big red flag to me. What's worse is the "people don't know they can be in any unit." I read that as whoever asked the questions is blaming the unit leaders. "Don't like the unit? Find another, problem solved."

3 hours ago, Tron said:

So my question about the burnout is; burnout directed towards what? Is it overall fatigue?

Yes. My experience was being a den leader is the toughest job because neither the scouts nor adults help out. Add to that the program being repetitive and I had to put on a weekly program on my own for 8 kids. It was only 2 years for me but do that for 5 and of course the parents are exhausted. I never saw newly entering parents that were cub leaders want to jump in at the troop level. There was always a 3 to 6 mo leader gap. That was great in that it gave them time to also learn because we had plenty of adults helping out. Now, however, the new parents are pressed into service as soon as possible. It's really bad when the key 3 are new to a troop. They mean well and they have hearts of gold, but it's usually not good.

3 hours ago, Tron said:

Some of this is literally set an expectation.

I've seen units collapse because nobody will step up. The leaders were great, they tried to find successors, they finally told the parents it's time, they left and the units folded.

Rather than blame the adults that won't help out maybe some consideration should be given to why it's so much work to put on a successful scout unit. The idea of an hour a week is the easiest scouter joke to get a laugh. At one point I was telling new parents that close to one hour of scouter time was required for each scout in the troop per week. 50 scouts meant close to 50 hours. Troop meetings, committee meetings, conferences, campouts, records, keeping gear and buying patches. OA, roundtable, training, PLC coaching, eagle coaching, .... and it doesn't include MB counselors.

Parents see this effort and back off for a reason. Hence, my request to simplify the program.

17 hours ago, AltadenaCraig said:

91% of non-alumni adults and 83% of non-Scout youth agree that Scouting helps character development

...

81% of non-alumni adults and 82% of non-Scout youth agree that Scouting had a positive impact on its members’ leadership abilities.

Unfortunately that doesn't encourage them to join scouting. I mean, if so many people know the benefits then why aren't they involved? Thats an important paradox to understand.

It's just my hunch but maybe people are just parroting what they've heard and really have no idea what Scouting is about.

Most scouts, when asked if they are trustworthy,  cheerful,  friendly, etc, will say yes because the scout law says "a scout is ..." so they must be. I've come to the conclusion that I'm none of those things. I certainly try but I'll never live up to that standard. It's easy when everything is going right but wind and cold and hunger and whiny kids and traffic and some other guy being an idiot and, when I'm doing really well, I can hopefully stay ahead of that welling up of anger and just let it go. It's the difference between selfish and selfless and everyone fights that battle. I don't know, maybe a long time ago everyone realized how hard that battle is but these days selfish has won. Teenagers tend towards selfish because they don't have much experience but it seems so much harder now. Or maybe it's always been a struggle.

Either way, we all want absolutes and no pain for our children and yet, the hardest part of being a parent is coming to terms with the need for struggle. Just like noone wants their child to get sick we've found out that colds are needed to develop a good immune system. So it goes that struggling with selfish is the only way to develop humility. How many parents of 11 year olds understand that? An 11 year old has barely learned to walk when it comes to humility and their parents only know that the struggle they went through as a child is something they don't want for their kids. They look at the kool-aid that character comes from doing requirements and they rightfully have their doubts. Sure, maybe scouts does develop character but not for my kid.

It would be really useful to ask those 90% why they don't put their kids in scouts.

Beauty and expensive are in the eye of the beholder, so I'll leave that be.

On 5/22/2024 at 1:32 PM, Cburkhardt said:

What attributes of the BSA have allowed it to withstand thirty years of existential challenges?

Momentum? The membership in 1995 was about 1M scouts (so not cubs or anything else). Right before covid that number had dropped about 25% to 750k. Covid has cut that number another 40%. Time will tell if the BSA withstood or fell to a thousand cuts.

2 hours ago, Cburkhardt said:

Outdoors and Camps.  Our movement teaches our young people how to master the outdoors.  The thought of heading outdoors for the weekend is very positive and that helped us get through the difficulties.   Some of our camps approach matching the beauty of our national parks.  This is what comes to mind for many when they think of Scouting.  

I wish the BSA would focus on those first two sentences. I would add that it also helps learn about working with others.

Yesterday a scout called me up asking about some volunteering info. Well, he was my first scout that joined when I became SM some 20 years ago. He had a rough time as a kid and I won't get into why but he has fond memories of scouts. We talked, mainly because I'm an old man and also have fond memories. He said scouting really helped him learn some important lessons. He talked about leadership, the outdoors, working with younger scouts, just having fun with his friends. He made good memories. I think that's another aspect of the BSA's staying power. A lot of parents want for their kids what they had as kids.

This is going sideways fast. I don't want to lock this thread, so please, don't let this website ruin your day.

In the meantime ...

Doesn't it make anyone else wonder that if we're arguing over advancement that isn't being done and the scouts don't mind and don't care, that this is really just a huge waste of effort? It seems the adults care about the advancement a lot more than the scouts do. Just maybe that means advancement isn't doing what it was intended to do. Aren't all the methods supposed to be ways to motivate the scouts to participate and interact with each other so they learn more about the scout law? Instead, we're arguing or getting worked up and the scouts don't want to have anything to do with it. 

Soon, someone will reply that the adults are just screwing up, find better adults or more adults or just go fix it yourself. Remember, this thread is about dropping membership. I'm thinking the problem is deeper than "just do it right." From my view, giving recognition to a scout that discusses how to make a fire and/or the food plate, is just feature bloat in the program. Just a thought, but if a scout gets recognized for doing something that his friends in school think is stupid, then the program is recognizing the wrong thing if the goal is to increase membership. Swim a mile? Absolutely. Climb a 1000 ft? Of course. Discuss how programmers can hurt themselves? Say what?

Quote

After completing Tenderfoot requirement 6c, be physically active
at least 30 minutes each day for five days a week for four weeks.
Keep track of your activities.

They're joking, right? What kid is going to brag to his friends that he kept a journal of being active for a month? If you want a scout to be physically active then reward them for hiking 10 miles or going on a long bike ride. This requirement is a farce and everyone knows it. This type of thing is so watered down, such that everyone can get it, that the rank requirements are more participation award than recognition. That's why membership is going down. Asking the adults to work around this mess just causes arguments and frustration. That's why adults don't want to volunteer.

I hope they make it work. They will be forced to figure out how to do it without merit badges. That could be a good learning experience for other camps.

I wonder what kind of program they'd put on for scout units. My old troop has gone to Bear Lake, which also has little to do with the BSA anymore, and the scouts really liked it.

6 hours ago, Tron said:

National has been sort of pushing what you're talking about Matt, they've been pushing this since about 2011. 

But after 13 years of pushing this the membership numbers are still going down. What bad assumptions are they making? Maybe it's a bad assumption that just having scads of documents around will make it easy for parents to pick this up and do well. Have you ever wondered why so few parents are willing to volunteer for scouts? Is it really all their fault because they're lazy or is it too complicated on top of the fact that their work life is already insane. If summer camps can't get parents to show up unless they have wifi for checking into work then that's a hint there's a problem.

I coached my daughter's 6 year old soccer team. It was pretty obvious what to do. Tell everyone to bring a ball. Get some cones. Make up some games. They learned the rules, they ran around and kicked the ball a bunch and they had fun. No literature needed. No databases or patches or SM conferences. I know the guy that taught the U18 team that almost won nationals. This guy was incredible working with the youth. His approach for these older kids was pretty much the same as mine except he understood soccer a lot better than me. Maybe kids like these types of competitive activities because the rules are simple and the challenges are both easy to understand and difficult to master.

Instead, we have to argue about whether a scout needs to actually start a fire to pass the fire building requirement. And then we argue about one and done and retesting at SM conferences. And the scout still can't start a fire because the PLC decided that they didn't want to do skills competitions. Just a hint, but this is one reason why some parents don't want to volunteer.

I'm not claiming I have the answer or that I even know what the problem is, but there is a problem. Scouting can be a good program. I've seen some amazing things. I see them much less now and it's a shame. My granddaughter is 16 months old and my grandson is 10 weeks old. I hope they have a scout program worth joining when they're 11 years old.

7 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

As I watched the parents and listened to the few questions, my comment as we huddled after...they are not buying what we're selling.  They expect Cubs part 2 and we scare them.  Programming for 11 year olds means the youth likely leave in a year or 2.  Need to challenge and inspire.

Another aspect of this is that today's 11 year old is less mature than those of 20 years ago. Whether it's cell phones, social media, games, helicopter parents or whatever, kids have less ability at dealing with hard, challenging stuff.

On 5/10/2024 at 6:39 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

Fascinating graph. It explains a lot. The rise in scouts was tied to the baby boom a lot more than I realized. I joined in 1971, which was both about the peak and near the end of the baby boom. I don't know what happened in 86 but there was a big bump in cub scouts but no change boy scouts. The other thing I noticed is the connection to the family savings rate and this graph. Nobody even measured it before 1950 because it was so low, but then there was a huge surge in the 60's and a drop off mid to late 70's that has been going down since.

Maybe I'm seeing what I want but the lesson to me is make scouting cheaper and simpler. It has nothing to do with membership rules nearly as much as it does with the economic health of the middle class.

On 5/8/2024 at 2:00 PM, Eagle1993 said:

18 Eagle required MBs can be done fully/nearly fully indoor while 4 (cooking, camping, hiking and cycling) have substantial outdoor requirements.  BSA lost me on "scouting is outdoors" when they added Citizenship in Society merit badge. Most of my Eagle Scouts have said Wilderness Survival should be Eagle Required but yet BSA went with another discuss/research/report type badge.

In addition, my Troop was the only one to camp outdoors during our recent district's Klondike.  In the past the Patrols camping outdoors would be awarded more points...not this year.  In fact, the Patrols who did cabin camping were able to work on sled decorations (earning trail points) and eat in the dining hall while my patrols cooked their own their own meals outside.  They were happy to campout but clearly the pressure and awards are emphasizing indoor cabin camping.

Heck, look at summer camps and the near complete loss of patrol cooking options.  We struggle to find camps that support outdoor patrol cooking.

BSA may say outdoors but their program, district and councils are all pushing more activities indoors (and in some cases away from the patrol method).  Their advertising looks great but not aligned with 90% of what BSA has become.

The key point here is that fewer scouts (and likely their parents) want to camp ...

On 5/8/2024 at 3:00 PM, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

The last 2 batches of Webelos that visited, the activities scared the parents.

... as illustrated here

On 5/8/2024 at 2:37 PM, Eagledad said:

 

A lot of adults are living their scouting dream through their youths’ program and don’t even realize it.

Barry, I used to see that but not anymore. The parents I'm seeing aren't interested. One example is an eagle scout who worked at a high adventure base as a youth. When I said great, we can't wait to have you come on our next campout, he hemmed and hawed and said he doesn't do cold weather. We can take his kid but he won't come on that trip.

I used to not worry about what the BSA did because I figured the parents would take up the slack and do scouting, one way or the other.  Now, it appears the BSA is saying something we don't want to admit. Too many adults are afraid of the outdoors. Which makes no sense because I see so many RVs around here. But maybe it's that they like the outdoors, but only for a few hours at a time. Certainly not 40 hours on a weekend.  I think this change has been going on for a long time, at least a few decades, but it seems to have accelerated lately. It's not like it's everyone. My old troop still has a few scouts that want to do high adventure trips but it's not like 20 years ago when every single new scout wanted to go on klondike because that was the biggest challenge they'd ever seen. Now, there are scouts that have been in the troop for 2 years and still haven't gone on a campout.  It's like having a soccer team where half the kids don't want to go out on the field. That's why I told my old troop I was done. I can't figure out how to work with kids and parents that think the meetings are all there is to scouts. I suspect the BSA (or SSA or S,SA or whatever) is also struggling with this. Ten years ago my troop was really strong but probably half the troops in our district were struggling with things like having enough adults to go camping. My old troop is still one of the stronger troops but that's only because the others are on life support. Now, it's like those troops were ten years ago. My guess is the BSA has no idea how to change that. I admit, I don't have any ideas either.

I joked about the name change before because, honestly, worrying about what one can't control is unhealthy. The same goes for the rearranging of deck chairs the BSA does with its name. I've finally decided it is what it is and I can't and shouldn't think about changing it.

Does this mean the BSA has joined with Scouts Mexico and Scouts Canada to form Scouts America? That would be fun. Oh wait, what about South America?

I don't see the BSA ever having to deal with this problem because there doesn't seem to be a benefactor that could sign off on such a project. Nobody in the school district.

It's great that this scout wants to unban books, but it's not a service project that helps specific people. Something about working with others to solve a problem rather than just working on it alone sounds better to me.

And yet it does make me want to read Slaughterhouse Five. I don't know how I missed that one. I went and found a synopsis and think it would be a great read.