Lisabob

I do. There was an 18 (19?) year old in my WB patrol. He did a fine job, too, and was the first of us to finish his ticket.

My advice: stay out of this. This is not a "mom" and "dad" issue. This is an issue between two adult scouters - you, the third adult, are only inserting yourself because you happen to be related to these other two. And frankly, not only do you disempower your adult son by doing so, but you place yourself in a no-win family situation, to boot. Think about it this way: no matter how "right" or "wrong" the ASM (your husband) is, and no matter whether the youth QM did the right thing or not, the larger issue has to do with the ticket. That's your son's to manage, and not yours to manage.

Will ending your participation in FOS and popcorn solve that problem? Or will it just make you feel better? Don't get me wrong, I'm with packsaddle for the most part. I just don't really know what it is you hope to accomplish. If your aim is to say "forget it, I'm not involved with this and I'm not encouraging people to spend money on this product" then that's one thing. If you hope to "send a message" to council and thereby get a better product, I think you are kidding yourself that this will be an effective way to do that. In fact, it may end up making the "product" worse, if everybody does that (sale of more camps, for example). So to answer your initial question, no, there aren't likely to be a lot of immediate negative repercussions (to the pack) to a decision not to do FOS. Just don't expect that it will change anything for the better, either.

Far as my strings being pulled First hand knowledge of the terrible conditions of the camp. First hand knowledge of the poor program. First hand knowledge of the membership records being altered. First hand knowledge of the council service center. First hand knowledge of the lake being drained. --------- Basement - I am not saying you don't know these things, or that they aren't true. I am saying, they may not be under the control of a DE. In fact, if you have even a mediocre DE right now (boy the last one sounds like a piece of work - hope the current one is better!) then your current DE and your district Volunteer staff (District Commissioner and District Chair especially) may actually AGREE with you on some of these things, but lack the power to make the changes you want to see. If that's the case, then having the vocal support of unit leaders to target specific changes might benefit you, the DE, and the district. Then the DE can go to their supervisors and say "look what the unit leaders are saying...we need to act on this." The District Chair can use this pressure to start appointing new people to head up district committees (like the program committee, or training committee, or whatever) who will actually DO something. Mind you, you'll probably be asked to serve if you speak up. That's what I meant by making common cause. I can tell you that it does work sometimes, because I've done it, too.

If you want to know the salaries of the top couple folks in your council, I believe that info is on the (public) tax records. A couple of years ago somebody posted instructions to find those online. I don't recall how to do it, but I checked my council's record at the time. What I do recall is that, while the SE made a fair bit of money, my DE was only making about $40K. And probably working 60-70 hours a week. (Of course, we had a great DE who nobody could accuse of not providing service!) If memory serves, our current DE makes under $30K and the demands placed on her by her supervisors when she took the job were ridiculously high. We volunteers were shaking our heads, not at our DE, but at her delusional bosses. Having watched that unfold for a time leads me to think that some of the things you mention, basementdweller, are out of the control of your DE. It might be worth asking the DE and/or your District Commissioner to that "friendly cup of coffee" meeting we end up referencing on this site from time to time. Tell him or her what things seem to look like from your vantage point, and ask him or her to help you see how things look from their position. It may be that some of the complaints you list are things where somebody else is pulling the strings and you, your DE, and your District staff can make common cause. Or, it may be they're all awful. But don't jump to that conclusion without being sure it is true.

It is too dependent on the boy in question for there to be a right or wrong answer to your query. Some boys really like advancement. Some boys couldn't give a hoot about it. Some boys like the skill-based requirements but hate merit badges, or vice versa. Some struggle with POR or scout spirit fulfillment. Some boys move very slowly (or very quickly) at one stage and then do a complete change-up when they hit another stage in their development. Trying to have a standard answer within a troop, or a patrol, or even "in general" in scouting, just does not really work. What you can do is to make sure the opportunities are readily available and that the boys understand what they ought to do, if they want to make progress toward the next rank. You can encourage them to set goals (whether advancement-related or otherwise) and you can help them learn how to plan and break down a seemingly huge task into manageable chunks, in order to reach those goals. And maybe give an occasional wake-up to boys who seem to have a goal but no clear strategy or action to reach the goal.

OK, then don't lodge a formal complaint, but leave anyway. There are a lot of cub packs "out there" in most places, and probably others within driving distance of your home. Come up with whatever justification you feel you need to give your son's friends' parents (or whoever) - maybe the meeting nights don't work for you, or you just think you have different ideas about what behavior is acceptable (that's pretty generic). I really think you SHOULD let the charter org and district executive (professional scouter) know what is happening, but if you are too uncomfortable doing that, then at least do your family a big favor and get yourselves out of there. I can't see how anyone will be helped by staying, and sooner or later this is all going to blow up anyway, probably rupturing those friendships you hope to preserve at the moment, if you do stay. (A side question: We all have different thresholds, but what will it take for you to be thoroughly fed up? If this CM guy attempted to sit on MY lap in the context you described, he'd be missing some parts right about now.)

Are you for real? This sounds so alarming that my first thought is it could be a joke, all made up to get a rise out of people who post on this site. But, on the chance that it is real, LEAVE. Leave now. Take your son(s) and don't look back. This is way uncool. Report the behavior to the pack's Charter organization in a letter, copied to your district executive, in which you explain why you are leaving. Then go find a cub pack that acts like a cub pack should act.

Are you for real? This sounds so alarming that my first thought is it could be a joke, all made up to get a rise out of people who post on this site. But, on the chance that it is real, LEAVE. Leave now. Take your son(s) and don't look back. This is way uncool. Report the behavior to the pack's Charter organization in a letter, copied to your district executive, in which you explain why you are leaving. Then go find a cub pack that acts like a cub pack should act.

I think we're getting off track from the original poster's actual question here...

In this case I would count it. This is different from the Cit. in Community MB where scouts are obligated to do a certain number of service hours for the badge. In that example, I would argue the service hours should count toward the badge, but those same hours should not be counted AGAIN toward service hours for rank advancement. The difference here is that the carpentry badge doesn't require service hours - it just requires carpentry. But in the end it is up to the SM to make the call.

I think items B and E should be left to the PLC to determine. If you want to encourage this outcome, you may want to have a sit-down with your SPL first and talk through WHY you think this is a good policy. Get his feedback and buy-in and then let HIM present it to the PLC. Once the PLC makes a decision, have THEM put it in writing (scribe) and distribute it via the patrols (PLs). Make THEM responsible for setting the policy for the year. (For that matter one could argue that the whole list should be left to the PLC, but to my mind, B and E are the most likely examples of power that should remain in the hands of the boys.) -------------- Having said this, my son's troop (also a full uniform troop) has very similar sorts of things about uniforming in their policy book. Question for you: What will you do with the scout who arrives at the departure point for a campout and who is not in class A? I ask because this is what happened in our troop. Somebody shows up w/o the official socks, or their necker, or hat, or whatever. If you're going to have policies, you have to be clear about what you are prepared to do when a boy (or adult!) doesn't abide by the policy. My son's troop (adults) took the decision to enact a travel ban - if you aren't in class A, you can't go. Go home and change, and get your parent to drive you if you want, but beyond that, tough luck. Of course, this was not uniformly applied, either among the boys or between the boys/adults, and so it becomes problematic.

CNY, if I were you, I think I would print out that email and file it somewhere for future reference. Then I would forward it with something like this appended (dollars to donuts, you get a hasty response and the registrar's time is reassigned!): Dear Mr. SE (or Field Director, or whoever your DE reports to) and Mr. Council Chair, I am writing to inform you that our district will be unable to verify training records for any of our units, due to the delays described by Mr. DE, in his email dated 6/8/10, below. As you will see from that email, district training records will be unavailable to me before October 2010, leaving insufficient time to verify, correct, or update these records. Thank you for your attention. Yours in Scouting, CNYScouter

"Discipline is the same way; just soon as the troop comes up with a great three times and you are out policy, you find some scouts should have had only one or two strikes while others needed four. " Amen to that. This is exactly what happened with my son's troop. Used to be, there wasn't much in the way of a written discipline policy, but then a couple of boys who were the cause of much tension due to their constant, medium-level misbehavior, resulted in a change about 4 years ago. The change was a "3 strikes in a year and you're out" policy that was supposed to provide clear, progressive discipline. Well, fine. Until about 2 years ago, when a different couple of boys started causing some fairly serious mayhem. It got to a point where another scout (seriously exasperated young man who was trying to protect younger fellows on the receiving end of some poor behavior by one of these problem scouts) said something like this recently: "So if I take a baseball bat and break some kid's kneecap and then I pick up a lead pipe and smack someone over the head, that's only 2 strikes - what you're saying is I can do that twice a year, right? And you'll all be ok with that?" Just goes to show, a formal written policy such as a 3 strikes disciplinary policy might make sense at the time, but it can quickly become a set of handcuffs, as much as guidelines. And any of us who have worked in a bureaucracy of any sort, know that CHANGING policies is a serious source of stress, ill-will, and intrigue so don't count on "oh we can amend it later as needed" to save yourselves. Be careful what you write down. Policies have a nasty habit of taking on lives of their own, especially after the original writers have all moved on and only the written policies remain.

We all know that teenagers can be exasperating sometimes. Sooner or later, that will apply to teens you might work with in a scouting context. I'm not talking about gross misbehavior, but more about how teens can be headstrong, somewhat tactless, and maybe even disrespectful without really intending to be. Sometimes that irritation might come about because we adults can't or won't get out of the way and let the boys learn by doing. So we put up barriers that don't really need to be there, some boys inevitably challenge those barriers, some adult takes offense at this "disrespect" and then we die on that mole hill (figuratively, of course). Sometimes we adults respond to our irritation in ways that are inappropriate. Foul language or lots of shouting or threats, or posting snide comments on a youth's facebook page. Not surprisingly, youth don't take well to that and lose whatever respect they might have had for an adult who falls into that trap. Sometimes maybe both sides are somewhat wrong. Maybe one of the older boys in leadership does get a bit disrespectful or lets his frustration with (what he sees as) some silly adult-imposed limits get the better of him. Maybe adult leaders respond in such a way as to blow up the situation, rather than calm it down. When these things happen and start to spiral, how would YOU intervene? Whose job is it to intervene, anyway? What do you advise that new ASM or Committee member (or SM, or CC) to do, when they're full up to "there" with a kid who hasn't done anything really wrong, but who they just don't get on with? In your unit(s), do you have any policies, whether written or unwritten, regarding how an adult should deal with a youth who is irritating them?

Thanks, guys, that's what I would have thought too.

Taking off on BigDave's post - so, suppose you have a parent whose son is about to go through his ordeal weekend. Parent doesn't know a whole lot about BSA, let alone about OA. Parent wants to know "besides driving Junior to the camp and leaving him at the gate, and picking him up from the gate at the end of the weekend, what am I supposed to be doing?" No real anxieties here, just parent wanting to know what's expected of them. What do you tell them? 1. Nothing, that's it - just drive, open the car door, and drop off/pick up Junior. 2. You should go to a celebratory after-ceremony/breakfast/whatever (not the actual Ordeal ceremony) on Sunday to show support and let Junior have his moment of admiration 3. You should be at the Ordeal Ceremony because you're his parent. 4. Something else?

CNY - perhaps you can find a way to encourage ALL leaders to refresh their YPT. Yes, grumbling will be inevitable. No, it isn't a tough course to do (or re-do), and now that the new BSA YPT mandate has just come out, it seems like a good time for people to do a little refresher. If framed well, you might get most people on board, even if a few grouse about it. One other thing - if (like many) your district or council already did a "we lost your records!" blast within the last couple of years and you are concerned about stirring up that same irritation again - you might be able to tamp down on that a bit by explaining in your letter to adults (or presentations at RT, or whatever) how "this time" will be different. In other words - develop and then promulgate a good plan to ensure these records don't get lost, too. We're a relatively small district (16 troops, 30-odd cub packs, a crew or two). Frankly, I've sometimes thought it would be easier for somebody to make their own excel file on leader training, than to trust the Scoutnet black hole! (yeah I know - probably not a real option - but there are still times when it almost seems preferable)

I'll keep my input general: 1. Don't write anything into your policies that you aren't 110% sure you will actually implement. My son's troop has a policy guide book such as you describe. It is chock full of stuff they don't actually adhere to, and it becomes a favorite vehicle through which some folks to attempt micro-manage the troop. 2. In light of the above, don't let this policy book grow like kudzu until it chokes out all opportunities for the boys (via the PLC) to make their own decisions. Otherwise, be prepared for the following dialog. Adult: "You can't do that" Youth leader: "Why?" Adult: "Because the Troop Handbook, section 3, paragraph 9, sub-section zzz says so!" (Sure, this is not what you intend, but it can happen quickly!)

dhendron is a crew advisor and not (if I understood correctly) a current troop leader. The boy in question is in both a troop and a crew. So, two issues: 1) What should the troop do? My thoughts, not necessarily in chronological order The troop should expect more of the boy than just an apology. I'm sure he is really embarrassed, but TOO BAD. Presentation on bullying is ok, but a couple of adults should ensure that the boy has done a good job preparing for this first - maybe have him do a dry run or at least, show an outline, to his SM in advance and require the SM (and SPL?) to approve before he can make the presentation. Or have him work as a partner with an adult or youth leader to prep the whole thing. Second, the troop should put an immediate hold on any near-term advancement. A boy who can't keep his hands to himself and causes injury to others is not showing scout spirit in numerous ways. Third, the troop should back the insurance claim. $600 is not small potatoes. Frankly, it seems to me the boy who did the slapping ought to pay this himself - but it was an injury at a scout event and that's what insurance is for. Tough luck if the parents object, it isn't their call. Fourth - is this a YPT issue? Given the nature of the slapping, I'm not sure, but it could be. In that case, a call to your local scouting professionals might be in order. Fifth - maybe "slappy" is right that he's being "picked on" and that other boys engage in this same activity all the time. In that case, a) he needs to understand that he is only being "picked on" because he was unlucky enough to have hurt someone/got caught. That's reality for ya. For comparison purposes, if you were to speed, or drink and drive, and you got caught, a defense of "yeah but everybody else does it!" isn't going to get you very far. And b) the troop might want to take a closer look at how come other boys are not being caught. Maybe this is a good time for some serious "guy talk" about keeping one's hands to oneself, and better supervision. 2) What should the crew do? This is trickier. If the boy had not gotten caught recently, how would you have felt about recommending him, given that he can't keep his hands off the girls? With that background and now this incident, I think I would be inclined to quietly hold off on signing off for this award. Expect him to show improvement in his general comport and respect for others. Another quiet conversation about how reputation follows you might be in order here. Again for comparison: you get enough DUIs, you might lose your job. You get enough speeding tickets, your license might be revoked and your insurance rates might go through the roof. The neighbors might talk about you. Your adult application to volunteer as a scout leader might be rejected by the BSA. Etc. In the real world, consequences of poor behavior are just not neatly compartmentalized and this kid should learn that lesson NOW. However, I freely acknowledge that I'm not well versed in requirements for the Gold award and am only assuming that there must be something similar to a scout oath/law/spirit expectation involved - and we all know about assumptions. ------------ The one thing I absolutely would NOT DO is to assign community service as some sort of punishment. There's a huge disconnect. "You inappropriately touched somebody so go help your community!" No. And anyway, community service is supposed to be something scouts do of their own free will, not something they do in penitence. (Heaven help you, the theme of the next thread will be "my son was assigned community service as punishment, and now the troop won't count that service toward his Life rank!" Don't set yourself up for that!) Good luck, and I hope you'll let us know how things unfold because we all can learn a lot by thinking these sorts of things through.

Apply a "reasonable man" standard. Don't get crazy over it. And keep in mind that certain very skinny pre-teen boys lack the body type to truly float well. They just have practically nothing boyant to work with! But lungs full of air certainly help - lots of people practically pant while swimming/floating (heck, even on land a lot of people don't know what it means to breathe deeply - ask any musician though, and they should get this). THat's not going to help you float.

How are you paying for things now? Every unit I have gotten to know, charges some kind of fee. Some are low (my son's troop charges $30/yr, with a one-time $30 equipment fee for new scouts). Some are much higher (one troop in my area charges $150/year). The higher ones tend to include many regular events so that you are not paying out of pocket for every camp out, activity, etc. In my son's troop, there is a fee for each camp out so you pay as you go. I don't think it is unreasonable to charge a fee. I would say, since you have a small troop and you're fairly new, bring a bunch of the parents into the discussion. Lay out for them what the money will/won't cover so that they see the need. They're much less likely to grumble if they understand where the money is going, and then they can help you explain it to new and prospective members, too.

Ugh, double post-itis (This message has been edited by lisabob)

I don't think the issue is that it took 5 days for policy to be made public. I also don't think it is a bad idea to make YPT mandatory for all would-be leaders. I think the issue is that, once again, the BSA is making policy in a very reactive sort of a way instead of thinking big-picture. Why did it (apparently) take a lawsuit to bring about this change? I'd have preferred to see BSA behaving in a more pro-active way. This reactive behavior is kind of like what happens when a kid misbehaves on a campout and all of a sudden, the troop committee comes up with 14 new "troop policies" about behavior. Maybe, had someone been a bit more thoughtful in the first place, such knee-jerk thinking wouldn't seem necessary now. And knee-jerk thinking nearly always results in logistical challenges that could have been avoided. As for how to deal with it - well, YPT isn't really THAT big an imposition. Poll your unit leaders to see who has laptops and whether your meeting location is internet-capable. If so, bring some laptops to sign up night, your first committee meeting, your first pack meeting, etc., so people who do not have computers at home can access the training. Or hold a special YPT event in your local public library. Or request that your district training team visit your first unit committee meeting in the fall and deliver YPT in person. There are ways to handle this. (If it were me, I'd get every parent in the unit to do YPT so that, in the next 2 years, if they decide they want to become a leader, it is already taken care of)

Ed, in the eyes of the law, and of the BSA, he is a child. Ed, do you use facebook?