Lisabob

Wow. Liz, I'm sorry to hear that the council lawyer acted like...a lawyer. It's clear to me he's engaging in classic CYA based on how he framed things. One other thought - if your son decides that he will take the council refund then maybe he can attend some other BSA camp later in the summer as a provisional scout. That is, if he's so inclined. Most camps seem very willing to work with scouts to ensure dietary needs are properly met. (typos, ugh)(This message has been edited by lisabob)

OK you're leaving on Sunday and it is a holiday weekend. By this point on Friday night, getting the SE on the phone is probably not going to happen until Monday. Or Tuesday. Time to plan so that you know you have food to eat, and worry about sorting out what "should have" happened, later. 2 Questions: 1. Does the troop need you to go to camp so that they have enough adult leaders? 2. Do you really think you're going to get a refund if you bow out now? How much will you care, if you don't get that refund? If the troop needs you and/or you would be really upset if you didn't get that refund, call the SM TONIGHT - RIGHT NOW. Tell him you have tried to work this out to no avail. Explain to him that you will be going, but because of the above lack of Camp response, you will be bringing a cooler and a cook stove, regardless of what you've already posted about that. This is just how it is going to be. You're doing him a courtesy by letting him know, is all. I doubt it will be an issue because camp staff just don't pay that close attention to what's happening in troop campsites. Ask for his help in making sure that the boys in question get reasonable meals while at camp. Ask HIM to call the family of the other boy and talk to that other boy to clarify that there's no stigma attached to eating somewhat different food. This is part of his role as SM, counseling and mentoring young men. That boy may be more willing to listen to the SM than you (sorry, mom, but that seems to be the case with teenage boys!) Then step back. Let your son go to camp and have fun. Pack whatever extra food you and he decide he needs, but I notice that he has handled himself for a week in Mexico, and he can probably handle himself for another week at scout camp just fine, too. Speaking as one mom to another, Scout camp is not a good place to go heavy on mothering. Unless he's becoming ill, let him bear the responsibility for managing his own diet at camp (with appropriate resources - acceptable food choices - in place for him to draw from). As for doing the cooking - sure ok, the camp program runs right up to meal time. If we're talking merit badge classes, then maybe one or both of the boys in question can choose to take the last block of time right before dinner off. Just because merit badge classes are scheduled for every waking moment doesn't mean they need to attend. Then they can help with the cooking in the camp site. They're late teens of fairly advanced rank from your descriptions - I bet they can cook their own food just fine. They can get up a little early to cook breakfast, and keep lunch simple, and they'll be ok. Although you're going to camp too, you should NOT expect to do all of these things for them. Help, sure, but don't make it your project. Focus on cooking your own food. Good luck! I hope everybody does ok and you all have fun. PS - Stosh, one of the boys we made special dietary arrangements for at scout camp a couple of years ago is also going to jambo in a couple weeks. My recollection is that this kid could eat practically nothing off-the-shelf. Gluten, dairy, nuts, eggs, some fruits, etc. were ALL problems. Either his condition has improved considerably in the last two years, or he has somehow figured out ways to accommodate his dietary needs while at jambo.

My son participated in NYLT last year at this time. He had a great time, learned a lot, came back with a bunch of new ideas he wanted to try to institute as SPL (several of which had to do with patrols acting more like patrols ought to act), "discovered" what boy leadership could mean, and has encouraged other scouts from the troop to sign up this year. I don't think it would be wrong to say that he found NYLT to be empowering. Then again, I suppose it depends on what a person hopes to experience and gain, and where they are coming from. For boys from troops that already have very strong patrol focus and where "boy led" is at its best, maybe NYLT wouldn't be as memorable an experience. For boys from troops where those things are weak or lacking though, it could be a real eye opener into what's possible. By the way: Hats off to Erie Shores Council for the great NYLT program my son participated in last year! Thanks, folks!(This message has been edited by lisabob)

I don't think there's any need for messages with accusatory tones to them. This is a legit problem and the camp folks screwed up by a) losing the paperwork and b) being totally unaccommodating. While the poster and the boys in question do only account for a small percentage of camp customers, when you look at this from a camp management perspective and you consider that more people these days have complicated dietary needs, this cannot be an unheard of, or unique, situation. In fact I bet there are probably a handful of people with these same problems who attend camp in every session. I know when I was organizing things for my son's troop a couple of years back, the kitchen manager told me this sort of thing comes up EVERY WEEK at camp, and also daily in school kitchens, restaurants, and convention/conference venues where feeding large crowds is common. Their take was that anybody running a large kitchen in 21st C. America needs to know how to work with this sort of thing, just part of the job, no big deal. The days of offering extra PB&J as the only alternate food are long gone. Liz, it sounds like you've worked through numerous attempts at being reasonable, although I'm in agreement with others that an RV isn't a very good solution given the nature of scout camp (and its extreme visibility). A small camp stove, though, is entirely reasonable. So I agree that you should now contact your council's Scout Executive. Explain the problem and the lack of accommodation that you have received, in the most matter-of-fact and reasonable tone possible. Explain what a minimal (no RV) accommodation might mean and how you can make it work with limited hassle for anyone involved. Tell him or her you need to hear back ASAP about what the camp **will** allow you to do (not simply what they **won't** do), pronto, so you can plan around that. See what happens.

A couple of years ago I was in charge of planning and logistics for my son's troop to go to camp in another state. We had two boys and an adult with multiple special dietary needs. One of the boys, I swear he could eat cardboard but not much else, which made this a pretty big challenge, given the nature of typical camp food. The arrangement was that the camp kitchen staff was not allowed to prepare the special meals that these folks needed (as per state health & safety regs), but they were willing to allow a troop adult and the boy(s) in question to arrive early in the kitchen to prepare their own food. They had to be supervised by a troop adult who would be 'responsible' for them and the food they prepped and ate. There were waiver forms for parents to sign, etc. But it happened, and all turned out reasonably well. While not ideal in some situations, none of them starved. Cooking in the patrol/troop sites is another option, as someone else mentioned. That way, at least the people in question have reasonable levels of control over ingredients. By the way, the adult I referenced above with dietary issues had been prepared to "live on salads" if possible, rather than cooking their special foods, but when they came back they told me that the BSA camp's idea of "salad" and theirs were very divergent. Your scout who plans to get by on salad should be prepared for the potential of rather slim salad pickings at camp.

Thanks for helping me to better understand. I'll be sure to pass along this info to other scouts/parents who want to know!

Sorry if I might have misunderstood and/or going off on tangent. Scoutson got told he had to remain registered with a troop to be active in OA as a youth. Not so? He could completely drop out of any troop membership, be registered only in a crew, and still be an OA member? If I've misunderstood, I withdraw my previous comment.

A different angle. Maybe the desire to keep OA boy scout-specific is seen by some as a way to reduce the bleeding in boy scouting registration stats. I know at least one boy who is currently planning to stay registered with a troop ONLY so that he can remain involved in OA. If he could join a Crew and also be active in OA, he might have gone that route instead. I have heard the same thing from some other parents of older boy scouts/OA members, too.

1) Yes, I think that person is trained. The trained strip is not limited to the SM/ASM side of things. 2) This differs from place to place. The new training requirements will almost certainly require that the training be offered more frequently, but it will probably take a while to work out all the bugs from the system, especially if your district doesn't have a strong training program to start with. (In the meantime, if you're near other councils, you could always see whether they offer this training on other days that are better matches for your schedule. Nothing requires you to stay in council.)

Well I saw that at one of the camps my son's troop went to and I have heard about it from other camps (my son's troop rotates to a different camp each year so they get a wide sample for comparison purposes). Aside from attempting to pressure the camp staff into providing a better future program, I see three basic options: 1. Grin and bear it. (Not an option I'm especially fond of!) 2. Change your troop's expectations about what the summer camp merit badge experience will be like. Encourage your boys to limit the # of merit badges, and especially non-outdoor merit badges, they expect to do at camp. So there are 6 MB slots, encourage boys to sign up for just 4 and use the other time to enjoy the camp and each other's company. Not every minute needs to be structured. I know some troops who won't allow, or strongly discourage, boys from doing citizenships, communications, family life, personal management, etc. at camp because of quality concerns and because it is just plain BORING to do "school" merit badges while at camp. Talk up the more exciting, unusual, and outdoorsy badges consistently, and get your up-and-coming scouts to do the same. Talk with the PLC about possibly setting new troop traditions such as everybody taking period X "off" and doing some cool troop thing instead, or about a whole patrol taking a designated block of time during the week to do some fun patrol activity. In other words, replace merit badge mill with something more interesting, and you'll avoid a number of problems. If you notice that some classes are lousy, let boys drop out, or encourage them to work with adults and older scouts back at the camp site on their skills (either during class time, or in addition). Provide fun and positive incentives for boys to "show off" or share the skills they're learning as the week goes on, so they have more reasons to be paying attention. Challenge them to think of ways they can build fun activities for next year, based on what they're now learning. (Example: maybe get the boys who are doing wilderness survival and orienteering together to plan some sort of "lost in the wilderness" campout theme for next year...or wilderness survival + first aid = "Plane Crash in the Amazon!" camp out) 3. Put the responsibility on their shoulders to behave in ways that reflect well on them and on the troop. Make it known that you will personally be checking on the attendance, participation, and behavior of boys in MB sessions during the week, and then make sure you do it. Along these lines, if the camp publishes "pre-reqs" for certain MBs, enforce them. Require the boys to show you what they've done in prep for the merit badges before you leave for camp. No pre-reqs done? They'll need to sit out that badge. The principle is that they shouldn't be taking up a spot that another boy who is prepared, could be using instead. I've noticed a lot of camps have these pre-reqs but the actual enforcement seems to fall on the troop end in many cases.

If the camp has a provo program at all, I'm sure they'll let you. My son attended a camp in another state some 400 miles away as a provo. He got some award for having come from the furthest away! Hope you are feeling better and you get to have some fun this summer, one way or another.

Community events like you are describing, Moose, seem to work pretty well for cub scouts around here. Our experience doing something like that for boy scouting, on the other hand, was a total dud. I have always felt bad about that, but now, reading what some of the rest of you report about having that same experience, I no longer think it had anything to do with what we did, or how we did it. I like Kudu's pitch. Of course it requires that troops be willing to go do it, and that they subsequently deliver on what they're promising (or else word spreads quickly and reinforces negative images of boy scouting in the minds of middle school boys). Don't sell what you can't deliver.

I agree with a lot of the points Kudu makes about patrols and about the role of adults. On the other hand, considering that a relatively small percent of scouters take WB and yet also considering that a relatively high percent of troops seem to downplay the traditional patrol method, I have to conclude that an awful lot of adults involved in scouting have done a fine job, thank you, of weakening (or ignoring) the patrol method ALL ON THEIR OWN, without WB training to blame. WB may be an easy target but I think it is just a bit too convenient in this case.

You can't lead from a position of fear. Think of it this way - what power does this jerk really have over you, except the power that you give him? In contrast, as COR, YOU have the power over HIM. I have a job where I frequently need to deal with people who are a) bigger than me and b) angry about something (which they may perceive, rightly or wrongly, as being my "fault"). So I get where you're coming from but the reality is that these situations are nearly always within your control as long as you know what you want to have happen in advance, and you keep your own temper in check. Anyway, you do not need to have a face to face encounter with this individual - that's what the registered letter via the US postal service is for. Once that letter is sent, you are also under no obligation to get drawn into debates, arguments, conversations, or shouting matches with the guy over the phone, via email, or in any other medium of communication. By refusing to participate further in the drama, you can effectively end it. I think you may find that, with this fellow out of the picture, it becomes easier for people to get along and get things done within the pack. So let him go and let whoever chooses to follow him, go with him. Then you can work with the people who actually want to be there and who want to make positive contributions.

Remove him. Make sure your charter org. actually understands what you are doing, and why, so the charter org backs you if this guy tries to go above your head. There's no reason you or any other leader or parent should put up with verbal abuse. This man is also not providing a good example to the scouts. I would not stay in a pack if someone like that were my son's den leader or pack leader. Have an all-hands parent meeting. Have a list of the key positions that must be filled in order to have a functional pack and a short description of what each position requires. Be sure to keep it from sounding overwhelming. Remind them about why they all want a pack in their sons' school, in the first place. Point out that you have plenty of boys to have a functional pack so the demand is clearly there. Make sure they understand that nobody - certainly not you or your husband - are being paid to do your jobs (you'd be amazed at the assumptions people make!). As for this obnoxious den leader - make sure to thank him for his service to the pack and just announce that he has moved on to other endeavors. No need to have a public blow out. The letter you can send him should basically say the same. "Dear Mr. Blow-Up: This letter serves to inform you that as of this date, Cub Pack 123 is no longer in need of your service as a registered leader. Thank you for your many efforts, and best wishes for the future. Sincerely, Mrs COR."

Fun thing about teens is that one minute you get the "a ha" moment and the next you get... a teenager. (said with a smile) He is a good kid, will be a fine young man, and yes, I'm proud of him. Thanks for letting me say that! Stosh, he's closer to 2 than 1 right now. But he just went through his ordeal for OA and is excited about being part of that, and he's going to jambo this summer with a really good group of folks. I hope both of these might revitalize his interest in scouting and help him see that there are lots of opportunities out there, even if a given troop isn't always the right place at the right time for him. He also had a really great NYLT experience in a nearby council that did this for him last summer. (Hats off to the Erie Shores Council NYLT folks for that!) I guess this is another reason why troops that don't introduce their scouts to district, council, and national opportunities might not be serving their older scouts well. You just never know what will trigger a scout's interest in staying involved. Sometimes it won't be whatever is happening (or not happening) within the troop.

Driving home from a scout meeting the other night, SPL-son was grumping about how some adults seem unwilling to give the boys space to try things out, maybe to fail, and then to re-evaluate. Instead, in SPL-son's view, these adults are always "what iffing" to keep the boys from possibly making mistakes or experiencing discomfort (or failure). Headstrong, independent, stubborn, late-teen SPL-son turns to me and says: "Don't these people know they're setting their children up for failure once they turn 18 and have no experience making decisions on their own and dealing with the consequences?" A ha.

I took the "new" WB in 2003 and I can say with certainty, nothing like that was ever suggested in our course. Nor should it have been. There is a lot to learn, beyond what WB teaches. About grandfathering - I really think all of our basic training courses should come with expiration dates. Just because somebody took basic position training 20 years ago does not mean that a) things haven't changed, or b) they remember everything (anything), or c) they wouldn't have a different perspective now, in light of 20 years of on-the-ground experience. Of course this requires that training be high quality and easily accessible, but if we can take those as given (I know, a big IF), then maybe re-upping one's training every 5 years or so would be a reasonable expectation.

Jeffrey: They aren't doing anything. In fact it is a selling point for many parents. I don't particularly like this approach myself, but my views are also not widely held by others in this group. Exibar: This troop has an adult patrol too (and there have been a couple of good threads about adult patrols on this forum in the last couple of years, btw). While the existence of an adult patrol can get the adults physically out of the youth patrol tent areas, there are many other ways for adults to hijack youth roles and responsibilities. Well-meaning committees who want to micromanage the PLC and "World's Oldest SPLs and PLs" who want to do the youth jobs for them are good examples. Avoiding this mentality is more than just a matter of physical separation of tent areas (though that's a good thing). It also requires that you seriously train your youth to do the jobs themselves, give them space to try things out, and maintain a regular feedback loop for what's working and what's not, or else some adults will use the youths' lack of training and expertise as excuses for adults to take over what should be youth roles.

The question should not be "Is a WB scouter better than a scouter who has not done WB?" The question might be: "Is a specific scouter a better scouter after WB, than s/he was before WB?"

I don't think that one can say WB is "make or break" in terms of the quality of scouter contributions. If you send an idiot to training, you get back a trained idiot. And yes, I know plenty of wonderful scouters who have not gone to WB for a variety of reasons. If you are in a council where people check to see how many beads you have before deciding to talk to you, I'm sorry to hear that - But WB does NOT teach or encourage such an attitude. Those same people would probably be unbearable snobs about something else, if it weren't WB. We can quibble about what tangible benefits people gain from WB, and whether they could have (or already have) gained those same benefits elsewhere. Regardless of where people fall on those questions though, what I think every participant gains from WB is a tight-knit network of other highly dedicated and (usually) thoughtful leaders to "talk scouting" with. Let's face it, we have only so many of these folks in our own units, and sometimes it is nice to have outside perspectives. And our spouses may not want to suffer our endless ponderings about scouting. So those WB'ers come in handy, sometimes! (Much like this forum, really, except your WB compadres are local)

I'm sorry about your leg, and about your loss. What kind of things had you planned to do while at camp? Some of them, you may still be able to do with some modifications. Kudu's suggestion about maybe doing Provo camp later on in the summer is a good one. It isn't the same as attending with your troop (and your buddies) but my son did it one summer, and he had a good time. Maybe one of your friends from your troop will want to go for an extra week of camp and could be in the provo troop with you, too. Provo might even give you more freedom to just do whatever it is you really enjoy at camp, rather than sticking with your traditional troop schedule and expectations. I hope you have a quick recovery!

I would like to think you're right Jeffrey, but that's not the case in my son's troop. He's been with the troop for more than 5 years and on the overwhelming majority of events, they have between 6-12 adults, for a typical ratio of 1 adult for every 2 or 3 boys. They routinely send 10-15 adults to summer camp (and about 25-30 boys). The Venture Patrol usually has a 1:1 or sometimes more than 1:1 ratio of adults: boys. Mind you, nearly all of these adults are registered as either ASMs or committee members, so it isn't a case of just "stray parents." This doesn't stop these registered adults from butting in to the scouts' territory, though. In fact it appears to give them license. One result is that the committee sometimes acts as though THEY have more ownership of the troop, than the boys do. If you don't set the expectations clearly enough, early enough, and if some adults aren't tasked with regularly reinforcing those expectations, then this is what you get.

I wish my son's troop would sometimes discourage parents from going on events. He is in an active troop that camps 10 months out of the year, plus they have a venture patrol. The troop goes to some pretty neat places. Naturally, many parents want to go along and have those experiences too. But - I completely agree with Exibar - it is not "parentscouts!" Problems arise when you have as many adults as boys (or more adults than boys!) on a trip. Many, many adults (even those on the committee/as ASMs) are unaccustomed to standing back and letting things unfold without their input or control. Even well-intentioned adults often have a hard time letting the boys do their thing. This applies even to those who have been trained. A few hours of training does little to guarantee that adults understand "boy led," especially for those adults for whom training is more about basic skill acquisition or for whom boy scouting is a new experience (distinct from cub scouting). At that point, one of two things happens: 1. Some adult leaders have to spend a lot of time and energy running interference and generally keeping (again, often well-intentioned) adults out of the boys' hair, all without upsetting too many adults and causing additional drama, or 2. No adults do this, and ownership of the program is usurped by the overflow of adults who can't keep their mouths shut and helping hands to themselves. So - how much participation is "enough?" Well that depends heavily on the adults and the boys, and maybe also on the activities in question. But I sure wish more adults would take the opportunity to let their boys grow a little bit without mom or dad nearby.

There are a bunch of intangible benefits to WB. Among them: WB helps you leverage other people to make them more effective resources, and WB also helps you make connections and "network" in your local scouting community. I took WB when my son was a rising WI. It is really the major reason I stayed involved in scouting as an adult, after cub scouting. I learned a lot of things about scouting that, as a plain-vanilla adult leader, I never would have seen, otherwise. Since my son joined a troop that is not very active in council/district programs, my WB connections helped me to know that there were broader horizons "out there" than just the unit, and many alternate ways to run a unit. This has been helpful for me, and for my son as he gets older, when the unit program has not been what he really wanted it to be. WB gave me a network of dedicated scouters, and it helped (and continues to help) me "charge" my scouting batteries. Wood Badgers are a passionate lot, when it comes to scouting. For the most part, they are an invigorating group to be part of. I took WB in 2003. Seven years later, I still find the connections I made there to be useful, often in unexpected ways. Earlier this week, I had a difficult conversation with a scoutmaster of another troop, about some misbehavior that involved boys from a number of different troops, at a recent council event. We sort of danced around things for a while. Finally, I said something to him like: "You know, we went through WB together. We can surely talk frankly with one another and figure things out, here." He laughed and agreed. Conversation flowed so much more smoothly and solutions were brainstormed, after that. Our shared WB experience was a basis for mutual trust, even though we've seldom had opportunity to interact since that time. Without WB, we might never have felt comfortable having the real conversation that needed to take place there. Joe Bob, there are as many reasons as there are minutes in a day to NOT do something, if you really don't want to do it. And WB is neither a mystical experience nor a panacea. But I do agree it will make you a more effective scouter, in ways large and small.