Lisabob

Twocub, I think you have a good solution outlined in your last post. Just one question - if you say "you have to do this prior to Philmont" and the boy doesn't, are you prepared to follow through on consequences of that? As for the impact of the interview with the person who works in the burn unit - I bet it has more impact than the boy may show on the surface. Ask the interviewee or your fire safety folks to provide some photos of people who got burned playing with fuel. Less "gawkish" than staring at the actual people in the burn unit (which, I agree, is kind of iffy), but still gets the graphic point across.

Actually, the Chronicle of Higher Education is among the most widely read "insider" sources in existence. Some of the others Paul mentions, maybe not so much, but this one is generally considered legit by those in the business. That doesn't mean everything in it is received Truth, though. There are plenty of problems in higher ed these days, and there is fierce debate (and research and claims and counter-claims, some better supported by evidence than others) about why these problems exist and what to do about them.

A lot of folks will simply turn their backs on events like this because they don't like dealing with confrontation. From what you've posted so far, it sounds like this might be the case for the current CM of this pack. If that's true, then I think you stand very little chance of getting the CM to take further action. Supposing that the entire scenario is exactly as you've said so far (boy was attacked by another boy - didn't provoke it, wasn't taunting the other kid, etc. - parents of aggressor won't enforce punishment and CM has swept it under the rug) - then I think you have a few paths to suggest to the parent & boy. 1) Let him quit cub scouting if he really wants to. Nothing saying he can't rejoin when he's of age to be in your troop. 2) Help him find a different pack, one where leaders don't put up with this nonsense and have some spine. 3) Find ways to ensure that the boy doesn't have to deal with the other kid in the pack - get them into separate dens, at least. If the den choices are less advantageous, make sure that it is the aggressor who gets the less favorable option. 4) Contact the COR and IH for the pack and ask them to direct the CM in what will be done. Perhaps they'll show some resolve where the CM has not. 5) Take Calico's suggestion. Or in modified form, provide a den chief to this boy's existing den and quietly let your den chief know to make buddies with this boy as best he can. Then let this boy know that the den chief is there to watch out for him - and be sure that you assign a den chief who will do this well. Having the cool older den chief be your buddy and look out for you can make a big difference to a 9 or 10 year old in distress. Any of these have their pro's and con's. Leaving also gives the aggressor a real sense of power ("I made him leave") and might also teach this boy that it is best to just walk away when someone hurts you. You know the boys & families involved - we don't - so you'll have to judge for yourself whether you think that message could be a problem, in this situation.

neil, if you're referring to what I wrote, I completely agree that a week's delay is probably insufficient. However, I wasn't consulted. As I said, I choose to not serve that troop anymore. There were just too many differences between me and the majority, over what was acceptable behavior. My point to basement was: yeah, I've been the one to say "hang on" to a scout before. He seemed to be looking for examples where that had actually happened. On the other hand, I can imagine a situation in which a boy comes to a BOR without having given much thought to things, acts snippy or sullen without realizing how he's coming across, as teens sometimes do, or simply gets nervous or defensive and clams up. In that case, maybe re-convening in a week's time is ok - give the boy a little time to rethink, prepare, and take a second crack at it, but not really a "punishment" if he hadn't done anything really wrong.

acco, I think the team thing is very dependent on field of study, school, and time. I teach in a liberal arts discipline where "group work" is fairly rare, and students loathe it when we do require it. But I spent most of last week hanging around with some folks in the School of Technology (engineering, software stuff, some architecture, info systems, even construction management - stuff I didn't know we even taught, in some instances). They were ALL ABOUT group projects and their students evidently expect that, too.

So this is a new one for me. The family of one of the boys in my son's patrol is looking at purchasing a new home. The boy is wondering whether he can use that as a discussion point or examples for any of the family life & personal management requirements? For example, rather than doing a budget of his own money, could he do a mock-up budget of what it would take to buy a house? He's an older teen, probably capable of understanding the many variables involved. I'm really not sure - and I'm not the MBC for either of those badges, which I realize, means I actually have no say except maybe to offer general feedback to the boy. Still, I want to offer him a few perspectives, since he asked. I can see where it would make the badge requirements meaningful to him, as it is a big decision that will have a huge impact on him. I can also see where the budgeting requirements in the personal mgmt. badge are supposed to reflect a budgeting goal that the *boy* can meet (not his family). But then too, it could help him to understand how his family deals with big ticket budget items, in terms of whatever final decision they make about buying or not buying a new home. And he'd probably learn a lot about home buying, too. What's the wisdom of the crowd on this?

The MB books I've read vary in quality, but keep in mind that they are written at about a 7th grade level (if that). And, as someone else pointed out, few of the boys actually read them, apparently because few MBCs expect them to have read them. I have worked with a fair number of scouts on badges where they've told me I was the only MBC they had ever had, who expected them to at least crack open the pamphlet. Most just get the list of requirements off the internet. Since the cost of these books adds up, you want to get books that are likely to be utilized. One approach is to start w/ the Eagle-required ones. Another approach is to look at the most popular non-Eagle badges and flip through those books to see what you think. Maybe "space exploration" or "reptiles & amphibians" are more popular in your troop than "communications" and maybe the boys will actually use those MB books because they're more interested in the subject (or maybe not, but I know my son thoroughly enjoyed the reptiles one at age 11). A third approach would be for you to find a few MBs that you think sound really cool & would appeal to several boys in the troop, but that few/no boys in your troop have earned. Maybe they don't know about them, or the badges are new ones? Buy a couple of those books, bring them to a meeting or a PLC, and make a big deal of them as an encouragement to give the badges a try.

Basement, playing hypotheticals can be fun sometimes - so here goes. Scenario: kid gets arrested & convicted for shoplifting from "wallyworld." Do you hold up advancement? Me: Probably, but the devil is in the details. In the short term, yes I would hold up advancement, probably (at minimum) until some time after whatever punishment is court-imposed has been served. After that, it depends a lot on other factors. How old is the boy? Why did he shoplift? Is this the first time he has been caught? Are there other illegal behaviors in his recent past or present? Does he seem to understand why what he did was wrong? How does he propose to make amends? What does he think he needs to do, to rebuild his reputation as a person of character? A boy who gets caught, learns from his errors in judgment, and grows up as a result would be a boy for whom I'm more likely to say "ok, now let's move on from this." A boy who is sullen, non-responsive, shows no signs of reflection or change in his attitude, or for whom this is a regular, repeat occurrence, will find a tougher road ahead in terms of advancement. But what I wouldn't do, is this: A boy is nearing his 18th birthday & readying for his EBOR. This is a boy who has had a rowdy past and, years ago, did some really dumb things, for which he was caught, and convicted (like shoplifting). He learned from it, changed his ways, etc., but he's still sort of rough around the edges and maybe I really don't like this boy much. So, just prior to, or maybe AT his EBOR, I start dredging up past events (going years back, not weeks) as justification for not allowing him to earn Eagle now - at a point where it is too late for him to do anything to change my mind because he's now 18. Maybe I further justify it by saying that allowing him to be an Eagle tarnishes the image of Eagle Scouts, since "everyone knows" this boy's past. That sort of punitive re-opening of past issues that were satisfactorily dealt with in the past - that, to me, is probably not appropriate. By the way, I have made a decision to put the brakes on one boy's advancement (in a BOR for Life) when the boy - a regular troop bully & instigator - could not answer a single question with more than a grunt and shrug, didn't seem to have a clue about what leadership means, and wouldn't look anybody in the eye or even sit up and act interested. I was the lone voice saying "hold on now." The troop convened a different BOR for the boy (including all but me from the original BOR) the following week and awarded the boy Life at that time. After that, I was not asked to sit on many BORs by that troop committee. Which is probably a good thing, because there were a couple of other boys for whom I would have said "not yet" too, based on their behaviors. What I learned is that my standards and the common standards of others in the troop were not well-aligned. I no longer serve that troop.

MattR, have you looked into the requirements for the national honor patrol awards? My son's current troop has some patrols who pursue this award and it becomes sort of a reinforcing circle. Some requirements include that the boys meet in separate patrol meetings at least a couple times a month, and that a certain percentage advance a rank over a period of time. What I'm seeing is that the patrols who are seeking this award do a LOT more together and have a LOT of camaraderie . The other boys - esp. the younger ones - see how much fun these honor patrols have, how they are really a team, how "cool" it is to be part of those patrols, and they start to follow the same model, themselves. Having the honor patrol stars is a matter of great pride in my son's current troop. And it gives the boys ways to put friendly peer pressure on their low-performing or low-attending patrol mates. My ("advancement isn't my thing") son who has been in boy scouts for 6 years now and hanging out at Star for a long time, suddenly found that the boys in his patrol - not annoying adults - were pushing him to rethink his attitude and go for Life & Eagle - and boost his scout skills, be more proactive in leadership, and generally just have more fun & pride in scouting. Cool. My son's previous troop had nothing to do with this - and patrols were weak, spirit was lacking, camaraderie was non-existent. Not saying honor patrol is a cure-all, but it seems like patrols who do the things required for this award are strong patrols all the way around. Maybe it will be a tool in your tool kit.

I see your problem. It happens in most troops, I think. I like your idea of asking (maybe each year, not just one time when they join at age 10/11) "what is your commitment to this troop?" Maybe this is a good SM conference question (using SMC not just for advancement purposes). It could give you an appreciation of where they are coming from, while also allowing you to set the general expectation that people in this troop are active participants who can be relied upon to do their part. I agree that not assigning a boy to a patrol will be a problem. They will have no "identity" in your troop. They will have no voice in the PLC where, presumably, decisions about the calendar & activities are made. This will probably reduce involvement, not increase it. Much as we all sometimes want to, we cannot set other people's priorities for them. I don't know why somebody would join & stay in a troop if they rarely participate. But they must have reasons. Some of those reasons (both for joining & for not participating much) may be more about the parents than the boys.

art - me, too! Have a plan of action for what people will do to support the potential DL. It is easy to say "oh, we'll help - call me anytime" but experienced folks will know that such promises often evaporate when the help is actually needed. Concrete offers to help with specific things are better. Show the target exactly what's involved - how many den meetings? how many pack meetings? how many committee/leader meetings? how many special events? How many nights a week are you really asking for? Which of these are negotiable? Put it on paper for him to see. For a few years I've toyed with the idea of volunteering as a Tiger DL for a pack in my neighborhood (my son is in high school and I have no direct ties to the pack, but I'd be happy to do it and I know what a difference a solid Tiger DL can make for a pack) but then I start thinking about kudzu. It is one thing to volunteer to do ONE thing. It becomes a problem when you thought you were volunteering for ONE thing and you end up getting entangled in MANY things that you didn't really have time or inclination to do. Have a clear plan for how you'll avoid this sort of problem, esp. if you have a small, over-taxed, leadership group already. Be persistent. Don't take the first "no" you get for the final answer. If he won't do that task but he's a great guy, see if you can find another spot that's more to his tastes. Maybe he's not ready to jump into a DL position, but would serve elsewhere and free up someone else, or he'd be a great assistant to somebody else as DL. Get him to sign up for training. If you prefer, get him to do the online training with you (or someone) so you can talk through what it really means to be a DL. This encourages enthusiasm and dispels concerns about the definitions or boundaries of the position. He might be more inclined to say yes, once he knows what's expected. Show him whatever resources your current DLs have & can share. Some packs keep a binder of den meeting plans, tips, community resources, etc. That can be a real help to a potential DL (and can be used to get them excited about the possibilities, too).

If someone were REALLY bright, they'd be having a star wars themed pack meeting tonight! Alas, alack, I don't know of anyone who is. (there's always next year)

Honestly, I am with you on this. Except that today is the very last day until he turns 18, the project was already approved and completed, and the boy has (presumably) been in the troop and advancing for years. Whatever one's dismay or distaste, to suddenly raise the bar on the day before he turns 18 is probably not the right thing to do. Even if the bar has been ridiculously low up to this point. Without knowing the boy/dad/situation it is hard to say if this might work, but what about having a heart to heart with the boy - just you, the SM, and the boy (leave "dad" out, at least for part of the meeting. This boy is nearly an adult and should be treated as such.) Tell him - "I have serious reservations about signing and this is why." Make him explain to you why he is ready to be an Eagle. Explain to him why you are signing anyway (I think you should, if that isn't already clear), despite your reservations. Ask him to help you figure out how to avoid a future situation where anyone - boy, troop leader, fellow scouts - would be in a position like this. Make him talk it out with you, man to man. Be ready to own up to any constructive criticisms (implicit or explicit) about how the troop program has allowed this to come to pass, over a period of years, as well. Of course, that could backfire. But I think it is better than simply resigning and ducking the real problem, which is that somehow, the boy got to be 17 years and 364 days, got to Life rank, with a project approved and completed, before a serious objection was dealt with in a serious manner. (hope that doesn't sound too harsh - I recognize that we don't all have control over every aspect and that these are complicated situations)

Beavah - exactly. Brent, every president, Dem or Rep, has worked (often closely) with despots. I don't see how you come to the conclusion that Carter, as president, was any worse than the rest of them. It just isn't very objective. By your logic, President GW Bush should never have developed a close connection with Pervez Musharraf, not to mention V. Putin.

Pick a president since WWII who didn't deal with dictators. Good luck with that. They all did/do. THe nasty reality of pursuing national interest is that sometimes, you make very unlikely and uneasy alliances. That doesn't always make it right and we can debate what is/isn't 'national interest' til the cows come home, because there is no single, objective, definition. But if you're all upset about Carter dealing with dictators, you'd better be equally upset with just about every one of our post-war presidents. It has little to do with party affiliation.

Agree that it won't change a lot on the ground. ObL wasn't making a lot of the day to day moves for quite some time. This was symbolic for the US, as much as anything. My question: what will happen in Pakistan, now? US raids in Pakistan are incredibly unpopular and while the gov't there has been saying positive things, the fact remains that Al Qaeda has some significant support there. Will be interesting to see what the popular reactions are. For an interesting alternate perspective as things unfold, Al Jazeera English is a quality source more in touch with the "Arab street" (too the extent that there really is such a monolithic opinion group as that). Well worth checking out from time to time - can be googled.

No, this is over-zealous, misapplication, of the "rules." Happens a lot. What this other cub leader might have heard (say, in training) is that you shouldn't schedule some event that is clearly outside the bounds of scouting, invite all the den kids to it, and (nod nod, wink wink) say, "oh but this isn't scouting" even though it is an event for only people in the den, organized by the den leaders, promoted in the den, etc. I know of some folks who have done just that to get around scouting guidelines. But to suggest that, because your boy met some friends in scouting, he now cannot invite those friends to his house, is silly beyond all doubt. Have the party, have the sleep-over, have fun.

Consider the practices of private and public diplomacy. In some ways, Carter is attempting to do a bit of both. I am 110% certain that no trip of this sort by a former president (let alone one with a reputation for mediating nasty disputes, often with good outcomes) is done without the tacit blessing of the US government. And that has nothing to do with one's evaluation of his presidency, or of the North Korean government's policies.

Take a stand. This is nuts, and will make the upcoming scout year not-fun. And when it is a source of stress and anxiety for you, it may eventually become not-fun for your son, as well. Further, it becomes harder to recruit new people in this situation (catch-22) because they see you running around like a crazy person, being stressed, not having fun, and they think "why would I want to do that?" Been there, done that, have the badge. Tell your CO that if they want you to stay on as CM, then they need to find a way to get rid of the bozo (you will not work with him as CC), and find some new help who are actually willing to help! Failing that, you will (some combo of): step down, move your son to a new pack, start your own new pack elsewhere, or find your son a better youth outlet than scouting in your community. Mean it. PS: tell your District Exec or Scout Exec or who ever that was at the meeting with you, too. Scouting Pros have their own agendas (keep the pack alive at all costs) and sometimes they will support or even appear to require decisions that run counter to what you know to be good for the unit. Don't count on the Scout Exec to make the tough call here - s/he more than likely can't, if they also want to keep their job. (I'm not dissing all scouting pros, but they work under incredible pressures and have different priorities than those of us on the ground. And of course they need to keep their jobs, feed their families, etc., too, so they're going to do what they have to do.) (This message has been edited by lisabob)

Well I hear what you are saying, and I agree that there are limits to what you can be responsible for doing. Everyone has their own, busy, lives. You should not feel guilty about this, nor should the "mentor" who is now the DL, esp. if he doesn't really want to do it. On the other hand, I have been a mom who lived in a town where I knew no one, had no family to help me, etc. This was made harder in one situation because the town I lived in was far from where I worked, and really, I only slept there - but that was not the case for most folks there, and so I really, really was an outsider. So I had a very hard time developing any sort of social safety net for myself, even such simple things like: who should I list as alternate contacts on my son's school forms? Thank goodness for cub scouting, not just for my son, but for me - it helped me form a quasi-family network to deal with the many daily challenges of raising young kids. And it helped my son make friends, too. I was very concerned that my outsider/isolated status would cut him off from the community, too (which sounds like the case, for this mom). On the other hand, we nearly always participated in cubs as a family, I have a wonderful and supportive husband (who was equally unconnected to the community, though), and I also have the fortune of not being disabled, myself, as this mom apparently is. So I can sense this mom's desperation. She knows she needs help and thinks scouting could offer her/her son an opening into the community, but she can't seem to make it work. The mom is reaching out to you because YOU are the CM and seem like the most obvious contact. You actually aren't the right point-person here because you don't have the resources to address this problem. But rather than do nothing because you can't solve her problem, try to guide the mom to some people or groups in your community who do have the resources to help her. Is your pack chartered by a church or other socially conscious organization? Do you belong to any such organization, whether it is the one that charters your pack, or not? If so, maybe somebody in the church (kindly grandparent type? Stay-at-home mom? Neighbor lady?) could offer to help the boy get to scouting events. Maybe they can't do all the events, or don't want to go camping, but could bring the boy to most den & pack meetings. Let them set some boundaries of their own. But it is a thought. What about a program like Big Brothers & Big Sisters? Do they serve your area? Maybe scouts is the main thing a Big Brother could do with this boy.

Unless you have back problems already, then the discomfort you are feeling with kneeling/wriggling around to get dressed is probably a symptom of some other things, and not really the cause of your distress. Maybe time to consider a fitness program that includes more back-care and stretching in it? One other thing to consider is what you might want to do with that tent in a few years. I know you aren't currently thinking about being an ASM or anything, but that could change once your son gets into boy scouts. Will you want to buy another tent then? Because the one you are describing, while ok for cub camping, would be less suitable for many boy scout outings. On the other hand, many (but not all) troops have enough troop tents to allow adults to just use the troop gear, and some folks do own a whole bunch of tents. For me, I just didn't want to have to buy a tent for cub camping and another for boy scout camping.

What 2cub said. Please understand, I wasn't intending to put down either of you, or your service to the scout units you've been involved with. It is great that you have the time, desire, energy, and heart to step up and take these positions. Of course, I do think there's something to be said for experience (by which I mean, living in the adult world for a while) because a lot of the issues & problems that happen in scouting units are, unfortunately, NOT about the boys, the outdoors, or scout skills. Instead, they are about dealing with troublesome parents, old-timer scouters who just won't let go, adult personality clashes, etc. And there, you're at a disadvantage no matter what you say or do. Again, not necessarily because you can't do it - but because you will start out with a credibility gap due to your age and the process through which you might be selected. That kind of bites (well no, it really bites). It is still true, though. Anyway, whatever the outcome, I hope you'll stick around the board here for a bit and share your views with the rest of us. Yours in Scouting, Lisa

Did these two boys earn anything lately? Perhaps you can make a big deal about the stuff they DID earn, and award those items to them. So they don't all earn the same patches, but is that the end of the world? PS: we have had boys use summers to work on their last rank - before they officially become the next rank. I suppose you could do that, too - don't hold the "graduation" at all, and do an "investiture" ceremony into the Bear rank at your first fall meeting, instead. Not sure if/how that'll work (some boys might be working on bear over summer, others finishing wolf. Kosher? not sure)

Mother Moose said (re: Moose Son): "Basically time will have to mellow the feeling my son sees in black & white, and can not see shades of gray.. He has toned it down in the last 6 months, but it is still too soon for them to change that opinion." And this is a good reason for Moose Son to really think hard about whether he is in a good position to be SM, whether now (as a 20 year old when he isn't technically able to hold the position), or in September (as a 21 year old). It is very common for young adults to see the world in all-or-nothing, black & white, terms. Sometimes, that is also how most other reasonable people would see a given situation. Usually though, there really are shades of grey. While teens and early twenty-somethings often struggle to see shades of grey, that is part of the job of a good scoutmaster, to help the boys mature past the all/nothing mindset. Hard to do, if one hasn't gotten there yet, oneself. Not meant as a slam on Moose Son, who is to be commended for his (and fiance's) commitment to scouting. Just my 2 cents.

Are you sure he can't earn it? How far off is he? The wolf requirements are (mostly) pretty simple. What's he missing? Other than that, I agree w/ the rest of the folks here. Separate the wolf badge from the bridging. Tell mama in advance what to expect. Let her have her tizzy fit outside the confines of your pack meeting. Maybe, depending on what the boy has left to do, that will spur her on to help him finish up the requirements in the nick of time.