Lisabob

OK Beavah, I've about had it with the name calling. If you aren't a Democrat, that's fine. I am, and I'm proud of that fact. Your labeling of Democrats as "dumb" and "lazy" is getting a bit old.

Yes and these are the same adults, typically, who appear to make poor boy scout leaders because they can't stand back and let the boys do their thing without interfering and being overbearing (generally speaking). One of my pet peeves too.

Son's crew recently adopted a lightweight, quick-dry fabric, T shirt with their venturing crew logo on it. They are all happy w/ it. The boys who are also in the troop lobbied to adopt scout pants too (they like the switch backs a lot). The girls weren't the least bit interested in those pants though - they don't fit many girls well and they're "ugly." So, for now, a T shirt is the uniform. Had the issue been pushed by some adult, I think the girls would've given them an earful, in return.

So glad to hear of your success, basement. I know for a while you were talking about the difficulties of finding people to step up as leaders in your community. What happened to change that for your pack? Not just the growth in youth membership, but the growth in adult/volunteers? It can't all have just been luck of the draw. What got the ball rolling in terms of adults stepping forward?

Look, she's a volunteer and you might not be able to "make" her do anything. But she is a volunteer for an organization, and the organization (CO) certainly can make her do something when it comes to financial transparency. An alternate approach - just because she volunteers to be the treasurer, doesn't mean the CO has to accept her offer to serve as the treasurer. It isn't unreasonable for people to want to see the books before agreeing to increase dues, etc. If it comes right down to it, as a parent (not a leader), point out that you're unwilling to shell out more of your hard-earned money without a clear picture of how the pack currently spends its money. That oughta get somebody's attention, because you will NOT be the only parent wanting to know this, if the pack leaders decide to raise dues or fees. Where's your CC in this? The CC should be able to tell her "I want you to share this at the next committee meeting." Committee members work for/with the CC, not the CM.

Thomas, the additional details do change how this looks. But please, don't take responses (at least not mine) as "attacks" on your troop. They're not. I think we're all just responding based on a) incomplete information and b) our own experiences. Anyway, what about the current CM and CC for the pack - are these reasonable people? Can you bypass this UC entirely by inviting the actual pack leadership to sit down with you and chat? Maybe if you can (re)make that tie, you can lessen the exodus of boys from the pack to the UC's favorite troop. In the meantime, I also think your troop needs to look to new places to recruit. You know you can't rely on your CO's pack to supply you, so what other outlets are there? Are there other packs in your area? How about requesting from your district membership chair, a list of all of last year's Webelos in your area who didn't go on to join Boy Scouts? Maybe reaching out to those boys & families now will net you some new scouts. I'm no longer my district' membership chair but when I was - I was amazed at how quickly boys who didn't cross over to a troop in February were forgotten about. Some of them just needed a break, or were busy with winter basketball season, or were not quite ready (mentally/emotionally) for boy scouts and needed a summer to mature. But most of the time, after failing to cross over in early Spring, they were never contacted by anybody in the BSA again.

What ScoutNut said about asking the families and maybe contacting your District Commissioner. 18 in 2 weeks is a sure sign of an imploding pack nearby. There isn't usually much you can do about another pack's woes, but as a courtesy, it might be worth tipping off the district folks (who maybe can do something to help the pack stay afloat). Also that reduces the likelihood that somebody will inaccurately accuse you of poaching, later on.

My son's troop CO just launched a crew. Their reasons were (in descending order of importance): 1. A core group of guys who will age out of the troop within a year, but who want to stay active in scouting as youth and not as quasi-adults (being 18 year old ASMs doesn't appeal to that many of them and it could present a challenge for the troop to see their youth leaders all suddenly become young ASMs as a group) 2. Most of those guys have sisters or female friends who they like to hang with 3. Crews can do all kinds of things that troops can't (listed above) 4. They want a different social experience, without what they refer to as the "little kids" always hovering around them 5. Some of them also want to attend the 2013 Jambo but will have aged out of boy scouts by then. As Crew members, they'll still be eligible to attend as youth participants.

Moxie, you (district volunteers) could announce that there will be no further camporees until or unless the units that were in attendance at this one come up with a commonly accepted policy, signed off on by all of their SPLs, on how any future vandalism of a similar sort will be handled by the units - and not by the camporee volunteer staff. Alternately, you (group of volunteers) could announce that in future you'll no longer be volunteering to run these events and a new group of volunteers (I mean, suckers) will need to be found, because you don't wish to clean up this sort of mess any more. Let it float out there for a while and see what happens next. Maybe others are willing to clean up other people's vandalism even though you aren't. (I know if I heard this, I wouldn't be volunteering to replace you, though) Of course, you have to mean it, in order to make it stick.

I don't think that what's being described here is good, or desirable. I tend to agree with Beavah that this is what happens when you get a poor fit between individual and position, and that this guy probably has a conflict of interest that he may or may not even recognize. That said, the problem is with the relationship between the pack and troop from the same CO. Thomas didn't say a lot about that relationship but I'd bet it isn't very strong (boys are crossing into a different troop, den chiefs coming from a different troop, etc.). There probably is a weak link here between the CO's pack and the CO's troop. I know that as a former cub leader, I was not impressed one iota with the fact that our pack & troop shared COs, because the troop was invisible to us. They didn't help us, didn't return calls or emails to pack leaders, and made no effort to reach out to us. Then they had the nerve to show up at our Blue & Gold and expect cross-overs - uninvited! How rude! We didn't actively push kids away from joining that troop but nor did we do much to encourage it. We looked for troops that were there for us when we needed them. Now that was as a cub leader with little experience in boy scout troops. Today after having spent the last 6 years on the troop side, I can see things a little differently. Probably, that troop felt we had betrayed them, etc., etc. Really what both sides could have used is more open channels of communication. Are there many adults with kids in both the CO's pack and the CO's troop? If so, they may be good people to help you bridge the divide. But overall, cub scouts and their parents and leaders will go to the places where they know people, and where they think they're getting a helping hand. If your troop isn't doing that, or if it isn't being perceived as such, then the question isn't "How is this UC hurting us?" and it is "What can we do to strengthen ties to the pack that shares a CO with us?"

Thank him for his service. Give him an emeritus position in the pack. Invite him to visit and lend a hand with whatever his favorite activity has been (preferably one that allows him distance from the obnoxious CC). Don't let him become a stranger. On another note, might be time to have a friendly cup of coffee with your new CC. A "we need to work on your people skills" cup of coffee. Not that you'd say it so bluntly, or even bring up this guy's resignation. Being new, as she is, she may not fully appreciate where the other adults who have made the long hard slog to keep the pack together, are at. They may not appreciate her, either, but that's another story for another day. (PS - congrats on your successful recruitment this year)

Uh, I'm getting a warning that my browser is preventing this site from automatically directing me to a different page. I don't think the problems here are resolved just yet! See ya'll, be back a ways down the road.

Here's a reality: I have learned more useful stuff about scouting - in terms of history, best practices, current BSA policies & rule changes, good scoutership, and just dealing with people & problems - here on this forum, than ever was the case in my district's real-life RTs. What's more, I have only rarely felt snubbed for being (gasp) female here, or for asking a question that is new to me - but not new to many of you. I can't tell you how many RTs and other events I've gone to where it is a bunch of people who all know each other, patting each other on the back for being super-awesome. It is hard to break into that group, or to challenge conventional wisdom, or to bring up concerns or problems being faced in the local unit (especially when the problem includes conflicting adults), in that context. Now in reality, I also have gotten to know many "mover and shaker" sorts from RT, and I've made some friends there, too. I've appreciated putting together names & faces of adults from units around the district, which is another great purpose of RT. But in terms of actual growth in scouting knowledge and practice, I'm sorry, these forums beat my local RT hands down. My local RT is only there 2 hours a month. And most of that 2 hours is spent sitting on my butt, listening to someone's poorly planned out blather or sales pitches that aren't relevant to my needs as a scout leader. Here, the discussions are usually interesting and typically informative or thought provoking. And you're all always here, even at 3 in the morning. So thanks to you all for being a great virtual RT for me in the last 6 years. If that makes me a lazy scouter, well, so be it. I'll pick up my knot the next time I attend one of those RT leader awards nights.

Oh my! That is one great photo. Thanks for sharing.

basement, you are the SM for your troop, right? If that is the case, and since it is the SM's duty to assign MBCs, it would be within the scope of your authority to call an MBC who is listed as "troop only" and ask whether you can refer boys from your troop to them. If they say yes, then you as SM know that you can give that MBC's contact info to the boy(s) in question. Whether the boys follow through and actually contact the MBC to set up a meeting is a separate issue. If you are not the SM then you could suggest the above to your troop's SM. Whether the SM chooses to follow through with such a suggestion is up to them, of course. However, nowhere have I read that the SM's job of assigning MBCs should be fulfilled by the SM simply handing the boys a list of all registered MBCs in the council or district and telling the boys to start calling until they get a live one. Is that what's happening in your troop now?

basement, you should try contacting a few of those "troop only" folks. In some areas, that is the default assumption, and the MBCs may not even know that they are appearing on the list that way. Or, they may not have thought about the implication of all MBCs checking "troop only" and might be happy to work with a kid from another troop, if asked. Then again, maybe not. But I bet a call from an SM saying "Johnny really wants to learn X skill, and you're the only/closest/best/etc MBC in the area. Could Johnny contact you?" would get a positive response more often than not.

Well yes, some "horse hockey" included, I know. And sure, our council's record keeping is about as good as most others - which is to say, not great. In this case, it is highly likely the problem originated at the troop level though. You'll have to trust that I have a good reason to think that. And while, yes, my son could go back to the MBC in question, and/or the troop advancement chair (who is the spouse of the MBC), I'm glad he won't have to. He had a rather unpleasant time with those two adults and they were a major part of why he decided to leave that troop. My point was: having the actual record makes it a lot easier than trying to navigate conflicting personalities, residual emotions, people's hazy memories, etc., years later.

Cautionary tale about record keeping: About a year ago, my son parted ways with his former troop and found one that was a better fit for him. Unfortunately, his former troop didn't keep great records and at some point they failed to turn in proper paperwork showing that he had earned one of the Eagle-required badges he needed for Star rank. Council is now telling his current troop that not only didn't my son officially earn that merit badge, but his Star rank (which he has had for 2 years) was never valid either. He would have to re-earn the badge & Star ranking, they said. And based on his current age, that would keep him from having any chance of earning Eagle. Happily, my son kept all of his signed blue cards from his merit badges. That, along with the signatures in his handbook next to the lines showing which Eagle-required badges he was counting toward his Star rank 2 years ago with his former troop, should be all he needs to get the record straightened out. Boy, I'm really glad he kept those blue cards.

In this specific situation, the leaders did know/should have known it was occurring because a) the other boys were telling their leaders and their parents, and b) the parents of the boy in question were fairly open about it. While I think there are some leaders who preferred to say they weren't aware ("We had no idea! really!" or: "All we heard were rumors!"), given the above, I don't see how they honestly could say they weren't at least somewhat clued in. The boy himself remained registered with the troop through his 18th birthday, although in the last year he seldom attended. As for the boy's parents, they were actually trying to get their boy help. They didn't have their heads in the sand. My recollection is that he was in some sort of counseling. Parents weren't condoning his behavior but seemed to feel powerless to make him stop (when's the last time you tried to force a willful 15-16-17 year old to NOT do something? How'd that work out for you? You can't watch their every move.) and frustrated and worried for their child. When my son told me (much later) that this boy had offered him pot on several occasions at camp outs when they tented together, my first reaction was to be upset about the fact that the troop had allowed my son to be exposed to this. (I have no reason to think my son accepted the offer to "share" but that shouldn't ever have come up at scouts). But then too, my son pointed out that easy access to drugs is a daily reality for many teens - at school, on the school bus (!), at social events, etc. And so his take was (paraphrasing here), "boy that kid is stupid and of course I didn't take any, but have some faith that we scouts knew how to say 'no' to him because we have lots of practice saying 'no.' If it wasn't at scouts, it would have been somewhere else anyway." Not that this excuses troop leadership turning a blind eye, of course. One thing I do find sort of interesting is that in another thread on scouts with criminal records relating to drugs, opinions were mixed on whether that boy should be in the troop. In this situation, there seems to be a lot of agreement that the boy shouldn't be there. Perhaps the dividing line is that in this case, the boy was fairly openly bringing it with him to scouts, while in the other case, it wasn't clear that the boy was doing that. In my view, that's a pretty thin line though, since in most communities, the boys tend to interact regularly in scouts, at school, in the community and they don't generally compartmentalize their lives into "scouts" and "not scouts." Reputations & actions follow one across such boundaries.

So we've veered off into the realm of hypotheticals in a few threads recently; why not one more. (This is a real one, FYI.) A scout of late high school age is known to smoke pot. His own mother, a troop committee member, openly acknowledges that the boy is doing this "too much" and is tearing her hair out. Dad is an ASM. Parents both seem to be throwing up their hands in search of what to do to help their boy & hope scouting will continue to offer the boy another path in life. The boy frequently brings pot to camp outs and several boys say he offers to share with (not sell to) other boys, both his own age and younger. Except for this, he's a nice kid who is well liked and seems to enjoy being in the troop. Advancement isn't a big deal for this boy, who is happy to stay at (say) 1st Class rank forever. Leadership positions are similarly not something the boy seems to care about. You, the Scoutmaster, find out. Some parents are hearing rumors about this, too, and start asking you about it. ------- OK. What do you do with this boy? What do you tell the other boys? Do you feel you have an obligation to disclose this matter to some/all parents? What do you tell parents who question you directly, about why a known drug dealer is being allowed to tent with their sons? Supposing you have a CO that isn't comatose, what (if anything) do you tell the CO? Should this boy continue to be welcome in your troop? Why or why not?

Please accept my thoughts and condolences for your family. There really is no "right" or "good" way to handle this, but I hope your boy will be able to find some solace in his family, friends, and scouting community. In addition to all of the good input above please let him know (if you think appropriate) that it is still ok for him to enjoy life and experience moments of happiness, even at very difficult times. I've seen some kids who don't know what to do, feel almost guilty for cracking a smile or sharing a laugh with their friends for a really long time after suffering such a loss. It is one thing to mourn the loss of a loved one; another to refuse oneself any break from the pressure of mourning or to beat oneself up for having a moment of pleasure in life.

Wow, glad you are doing this! Try something that requires less tending to, or has shorter cook time (KISMIF). 9-10 year olds are not known for their patience. If there are a lot of steps or if it requires regular attention for a long period of time, it ain't gonna happen. Baked potatoes are slow food for an excited boy. Cook frequently. Even if it is just dump cake at the end of a den meeting once a month, get them used to the idea that they can & will be cooking *and eating* tasty stuff at den meetings. Start small and build. For many it is probably their first cooking experience, period. Many families do not have traditional family meals anymore, and a lot of parents can barely boil water. Of those who can and do cook at home, a lot of busy parents may not have had the time to share the joy of cooking with their child on any serious level yet. They're coming home from work, throwing dinner together, and just being glad they have something on the table. Don't expect skill or appreciation of the time good food takes to cook, just yet (even from their parents). Get local boy scouts to cook for & with the boys! ---------------------------------------- Worst camp cooking experience ever: when I used to work at summer camps - not scouts - we had "hot dog Wednesdays" on which we were given frozen hot dogs that we were supposed to cook on sticks over a fire - which most could barely get lit. Inevitably the dogs would be burnt on the outside & frozen in the middle, or would fall off the stick part way through. Lots of grumpy campers who learned to hate outdoor cooking. Wise staffers scheduled their night off on Wednesday nights.

http://www.popecenter.org/news/article.html?id=1810 exec. summary of Nieli's paper. There's a link to the full pdf (18 pgs) as well.

Oak Tree writes: "In the past when we've brought up the topic with the PLC the boys have been highly resistant to pants." How far in the past? I can see where the older pants would be unpopular, but since the pants changed a few years ago, I see that many more boys are fine with wearing them. Now they look and feel like the kind of pants many of them wear anyway. Probably the ones who are still resistant are the ones who like jeans better? Or are they still thinking of the older style pants?

Pack212, we've done the $10 campouts. Here's how they work. 1. They're not far away (gas costs are minimal) 2. They're on sites where the camping fee is either minimal or non-existent (some state parks around here only charge about $10 for the entire group camp site, for the weekend - though I think this might have gone up recently - and most scouter/drivers also already have annual park entry passes so no gate fees) 3. Food is probably cheaper here, than in AK. And the boys aren't eating expensive cuts of meat. And many staple ingredients are already in the patrol boxes (or sometimes, an extra couple of items are swiped out of somebody's cupboards at home). So long as each patrol has a good number of boys attending, it is not too difficult. Harder, though still possible, with only 2-3 boys in a patrol.