kenk

"One of the exciting things about going into the wild is the adventure. Not being 100% sure you are gonna make it back. Sharpens the senses." So do you drive without a seat belt too? With all due respect, I don't buy the argument. I also don't buy the "electronics have no place in backcountry" claim since that is just one step up from thinking that a magnetic compass is a newfangled device. Flashlights have batteries too, but I consider a flashlight a key part of my survival kit. I cherish my life and even more so that of my family members. I choose to be prepared - and equipped - for "whatever".

If one is certain that a cell phone could can get a sufficient signal where you are going, then I should help, BUT a 460 Mhz Personal Locator Beacon will provide a MUCH more reliable way of calling for help when things go bad. Here is a very good review/summary of the PLB technology: http://www.equipped.org/406_beacon_test_background.htm#How As you mention, this also means that those who are heading into the backcountry take appropriate precautions, plan ahead (including letting a reliable person know your plan & expected time of return), bring along gear needed to (1) survive until help arrives, including signaling gear, and have the knowledge & experience to used that gear. Ken

Welcome to the campfire! I visited Virginia (Culpeper) for the very first time this spring and found it to be an absolutely beautiful area!! Ken

I've always preferred Coleman fuel stoves over propane stoves - even when it comes to the two-burner suitcase variety. I had an MSR Whisperlite for many many years, but tired of struggling to control the flame level. So, I researched and researched and finally made the decision to go with the MSR Dragonfly. After using for a while I know I made the right choice. The MSR Dragonfly provides complete flame control for cooking more than water. Is field repairable. Functions perfectly in very cold weather. Has mult-fuel capability - but use of Coleman fuel is best. Separating the fuel bottle from the stove allows easy use of a windscreen for more efficient fuel use. No partial propane/isobutane fuel canisters to mess with. Stable enough to handle good-sized pots. One last thought: For any stove, don't forget to check the stove's function before each trip. All propane stoves and most backpacking Coleman fuel stoves have o-rings that are critical to their safe operation. O-rings can tear without warning. Its not a stove defect - just the nature of o-rings. Lubricating them before each use will help them last a lot longer. Use spit, Vaseline, Chapstick, or silicone grease made especially for o-rings.

First, are you SURE that the water came from the floor? This time of the year lots of Scouts are zipping their tents shut at night and with the very cool nights that can lead to lots of condensation which eventually makes its way down to the floor. Last fall on a particularly chilly night my son and his buddy zipped his 4-person tent completely up and ended up with puddles - real puddles - on the floor by morning. I KNOW his tent didn't leak since it didn't rain a drop during the weekend. For tents, take a look at http://www.alpsmountaineering.com They offer Scouts a 45% discount. Details are at http://www.scoutdirect.com . I (Scoutmaster) have the 6-person Merimac and the 5-person Taurus. I like them both a lot. The Taurus 4-person is probably closer to what a troop would want for Scouts. The Merimac has lots of netting, which gets a bit drafty for cooler weather camping, but is nice for warm weather camping. Another very nice model is the Vertex 4.0, though I'm not sure if it has the thicker floors and HD zippers. If interested, just call them and ask about the tents. They are real nice folks.

Kraut, If you can point me to the tall version of the Carson I'd buy it in a heartbeat. I've tried to find it before. It appears to no longer be available. I can only find the regular length ones. Ken

One additional thought (with all due respect) ... Don't let your nostalgia for your days in Scouting burden your son with out-of-date, heavy, or "un-cool" gear. My son's troop has a Scout whose dad makes him use the dad's old Scout gear. I once said to him (in a very positive way) that is so cool that you get to use your dad's Scout gear. I even mentioned how hard it was to find an external frame pack and their advantages. He rolled is eyes and said "Yeah, I wish I could have gear like the other guys." The Scout wouldn't dare break his dad's heart by asking him for new gear. That said, I do wish external frame backpacks were more of an option. Hardly anyone sells them anymore, especially in the tall size that I would need. These old bones get hot while backpacking and the external frame would really help.

I like the glowstick idea for certain parts of the ceremony. I also can see the use of lots of keroscene lanterns being a cool replacement for a fire. I first thought about Coleman lanterns, but they tend to be too bright - almost electric lightbulb like. Heck, with some imagination you could do some nice things with just flashlights too.

Thanks for all your great advice. I'll bring it to this weekend's PLC meeting. ALL chemical fuels (Coleman fuel, kerosine, propane) require that adult supervision be provided. The only real difference in how the GTSS treats Coleman fuel/gas/kerosine compared to propane is that it specifically says that "Both gasoline and kerosene shall be kept in well-marked, approved containers (never in a glass container) and stored in a ventilated, locked box at a safe distance (a minimum of 20 feet) from buildings and tents." Around here there aren't restrictions on wood fires (in approved fire pits), but more & more of the parks are starting to forbid us from picking up dead wood from the forests. They emphasize that the wood needs to be there to help build soil. We have to bring our own wood in with us - and then what isn't used can't be taken back out in order to prevent spread of Gypsy Moths.

My son's formerly small troop has two new patrols coming in, and that means it time to start buying more gear. This brought up the topic of "standardized patrol gear" and exactly what should be on that list. From what I've found in internet searches it seems that most patrol gear consists of car camping kind of stuff - 2-burner Coleman stoves, lanterns, dutch ovens, big carport canopies, tables, etc... I'm wondering if anyone knows of patrols that have instead taken a lighter, more lean approach - something like backpacking where Scouts are using one or two small one-burner stoves, no lantern, lightweight nylon flies, no tables, etc... What are your thoughts on the benefits and drawbacks of these different gear options? Thanks, Ken K.

Most important .... Pointy end goes in front!! Very good advice given already. Assume you'll swamp. Pack and dress as if you will. Swivel your hips to ride out the side-to-side rolling. Don't fight it.

In the last year my son's troop (I'm an ASM) has started separating the youth from the adults when camping. Us adult form the OWL patrol (Older Wiser Leaders or Old, Weak, & Lame, depending on your point of view) and we cook and clean separately from the patrols. We've been calling it "white-line" camping, where the youth stay on one side of the line, and the adults stay on the other - except for activities out of camp. The only person who can move across the line - except for emergencies - is the SPL. We encourage the SPL and ASPL to eat with a patrol. During activities the OWL patrol is either helping to teach, tagging along, or hanging back and watching. A good camp chair is very important. This spring we had 11 new Scouts join our troop, nearly doubling the size of the troop. At the last PLC it was decided to split into two new-Scout patrols, one regular patrol (6,7, & 8th graders), and a venture patrol for high school boys. It seems to be working very well. The venture patrol will have a few troop guides that will help the new-Scout patrol, and the SPL and ASPL will likely come from & eat with the venture patrol. I'm doing my best to push the adult out of the equation as much as possible and let the SPL, ASPL, PLC, and venture patrol do as much as possible. The SM is starting to see the benefits and going along with it - mostly. It will take time.

I'm an ASM. My son is a 13 year old Star Scout. He's been told that he'll be eligable for the OA vote this spring. My son has Aspergers Syndrome, and is clearly not all that popular with the other Scouts. While my wife gets upset at the thought of the OA election being a "popularity contest", I myself understand the process and I'm OK with it. I've had discussions with my son about the possibility that the other Scouts may not vote for him. He says he's OK with it. If he doesn't get voted in, it will hurt both of us parents, but that doesn't matter, and I honestly think he'll be OK. There will always be next year. My biggest problem with our OA elections is the fact that, at least so far for the last two years I've been in the troop, OA elections have occurred just after we get the new Webelos crossing over into the troop. This year we'll have 11 new Scouts and 13 experienced Scouts. I don't think it is fair to have those new Scouts vote after just one meeting and one outing with the troop. They just don't know the Scouts well enough to vote for or against them. I wish voters were required to have been with the troop for a minimum of some number of months -- or something similar. My solution this year is to ask if we can put photos of the OA-eligible Scouts on the ballots, so at least the new Scouts can recognize their faces. I hope this will be OK. (This message has been edited by kenk)

Troop adults (SMs, CCs, ...) all too often fail to recognize that the troop is run by the PLC and the Scouts. The Scoutmaster's job is to guide them, to ensure their safety, and to make sure they follow BSA policies and guidelines. It is the committee's job is to support them and to make sure that the troop program is functioning accordingly. My son's troop has that problem. The adults are trying to run it like a Cub Scout pack, where the adults do too much of the decision-making and work. Myself and another ASM - who is actually the CR too, now that I think of it - are trying to change that, but its an uphill battle. Our CO is pretty hands-off, so the CR doesn't have much authority in the end. Victonate, can you provide more specifics about what the SM is doing wrong, or simply not doing?(This message has been edited by kenk)

I had to smile when I read "An ASM told him he had to add fruit to every meal." The adults need to let the Scouts do their thing and fall back to a position of a very high level guidance. Its the Scouts' troop. "Stop giving them money for food. Let them earn their own money and buy their own food." Bob, you are soooo right!! Now I just have to try to convince my Scoutmaster and Troop Committee that this is the correct patrol-method method. If the parents give the money then the Scouts have no personal stake in that part of the the process and the cost.

Sheesh! Hey Knight, why don't you crawl back into the narrow-minded hole that you crawled out of. Ever hear of eugenics? I suppose you'll want to add another Scout law: A Scout is genetically perfect. Clearly you missed the "mentally awake" part.

We watched "Remember the Titans" with Denzel Washington

Great advice so far. My only advices is: 1. Have your son get the information from his troop. They'll be able to offer lots of advice. 2. Don't feel that you have to buy the top-end gear. Mid-level gear will do fine for what your son needs. Great advices on the Alps Mountaineering gear. 45% discount! 3. Let your son pack himself. During our yearly backpacking trip most new Scouts have too much and say their parents told them to pack this and that. They should pack only what they'll use/need. 4. My experince has been that the biggest weight/space saver is in the sleeping bag. Lots of Scouts use lower quality rectangular bags that simply can't pack small. He'll want a high-quality mummy bag eventually. Might as well get a good one now - ask his leaders for advice on that too. 5. Don't hang stuff from the outside of the pack!! Dont't know why, but lots of Scouts seem to do this. Then gear starts banging around and falling off. 6. A great book that your son (and you) will enjoy reading for years is the "The Complete Walker". Trust me, he'll keep it into adult-hood and enjoy it as much then. I have two versions - one from my childhood and one from a few years back - I treasure them both.

You know, the first time I read this thread I was thinking that this was all wishful thinking. Now that I read through the GTSS a second time it is clear to me that with the wording: "Pointing any type of firearm (including paintball or dye) at any individual is unauthorized." The GSS clearly refers to firearms - a device that fires a projectile. A laser tag gun is NOT a firearm, though it may look like one. If their intent was to prevent Scouts from pointing gun-like objects at each other, then they would/should have stated that. Actually laser tag is more akin to pointing flashlights at each other, and we know that happens all too often. I do think laser tag is not prohibited.

Around here, for real cold weather camping, Scouts buy 4x8 sheets of foam insulation at Home Depot or similar, cut it into managable strips, and then duct tape it back together so it will fold z-style. This goes on the ground to provide insulation. Put your regular pad (for comfort) over that. Stay dry!! Before you climb into the sleeping bag change into dry clothing - even the underwear and socks - since they will contain moisture and that will make you cold. I myself absolutely need to wear wool socks to bed or else my feet get cold - even with the warmest sleeping bag. Bring extra blankets if you're not sure how your sleeping bag will do. In addition to the hand warmer, you can also put hot water into a Nalgene water bottle and put that into your bag a while before turning in. For safety sake I'd put the water bottle into a ziploc bag - just to make sure a leak doesn't mess up your bag. Wear a loose-fitting synthetic cap while sleeping. Don't breath into your bag as that will add a ton of moisture. Ventilate your tent well - to avoid condensation. Make sure you drink LOTS of water as the air is very dry. Wear synthetic or wool clothing. Don't wear cotton. If you're sitting in a camp chair, bring a cheap closed cell foam pad to lay over the seat and back. I saw something on TV oncee that proved that a warm body helps keep your hands warm. A cold body will shut down circulation in the extremities to try to preserve heat. My biggest problem in cold weather is that my eyes get cold and start watering, and that leads to my nose running. The running nose drives me absolutely nuts. I really need to purchase a pair of cold-weather goggles that fit over my glasses. If you're really cold and not doing well - say something to the other leader(s). Don't tough it out and wait until something is real wrong.

I see knives as tools. All kinds of knives are needed just as there are all kinds of tools. There are clearly places where a fixed blade is the best tool. Scouts in my son's troop are allowed to carry fixed blade knives of "reasonable" length so long as they carry & use them safely, though they are not allowed on council properties and our troop respects that rule. What's resonable - well, that depends on what its used for, but a blade much longer than 5 or 6 inches seems oversized for Scouting. For Scouts I tend to look at lower cost, but still high quality knives, since there is a pretty high risk of losing the knife. My favorite low-cost folder is the Kabar Dozier Folding Spear for $20. This lock blade knife sharpens easily, opens one-handed with a thumbstud, has a durable non-slip handle, clip, lanyard hole, and a nicely-shaped 3" blade. http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=KA4066 My favorite low-cost fixed blade knives are the Mora knives, which come in an amazing assortment of shapes and sizes. I think the favorite of most folks are the #510, #511, 521, and #760 for about $10, but my personal favorite is the #746 for $13.50. Both have blades roughly 4" long and decently sturdy plastic sheaths. http://www.ragweedforge.com/SwedishKnifeCatalog.html By the way, the #746, #748, and #740 stainless steel blades of lengths 4", 5.75", and 8" make fantastic cook kit knives. Now, if you're asking for my own personal favorite folder and fixed blades, then you'll need to go here: http://www.equipped.org/dr_gear.htm By the way, if a patrol needs a can opener, well, skip the one on the knife and get one of these for the patrol box: http://www.focuspg.com/focuspg/catalog.cfm?dest=dir&linkon=section&linkid=19 The best can opener on the planet. If you need something smaller, then get a P-38 or P-51 GI can opener: http://www.georgia-outfitters.com/page52.shtml(This message has been edited by kenk)

Sorry for the rehash all. I've been out of town for the last two weeks (Frankfurt & then Texas) and missed that thread. Even so, I do hope the BSA publishes some guidance for Scouters to help us out. We certainly want to teach them "correctly". Thanks, Ken K.

I got this in an e-mail from my council: New Boy Scout Rank Requirements The National Youth Protection Committee recommended additions to Boy Scout rank requirements that were approved and will become effective January 1, 2008 . These changes will help us advance the importance of Youth Protection training beyond the initial Boy Scout joining requirements, and keep youth informed and actively engaged in understanding the key elements of personal safety and protection. Tenderfoot Rank Revised requirement 9: Explain the importance of the buddy system as it relates to your personal safety on outings and in your neighborhood. Describe what a bully is and how you should respond to one. Second Class Rank New requirement 8b: Explain the three Rs of personal safety and protection. First Class Rank New requirement 12: Describe the three things you should avoid doing related to use of the Internet. Describe a cyberbully and how you should respond to one. QUESTION: Does anyone know where I can find the "official" answers to these? Normally I'd look it up in the Handbook, but that won't be out for some time. Thanks, Ken K.

If I'm going to submit an Advancement Report form that only contains merit badges (no rank badges) do I need to get the two Board of Review signatures? Of course there wouldn't necessarily be a related board of review, so it seems that the signatures wouldn't make sense or be needed. Thanks, Ken K.

As a troop advancement coordinator (and asst Scoutmaster) I'm curious how your troop uses TroopMaster's Advancement Report form - or for that matter any other Advancement Report form. We tend to have several board of reviews just before a court of honor. Each of the board of reviews likely have a different mix of committee members. After the board of reviews - usually held during two or three troop meetings - I enter the dates of completion for each relavant Scout (which completes their rank requirements). A day or two before heading off to buy the badges I print off the Advancement Report form using TroopMaster. I sign the part that certifies that the records are correct, and I hunt down two committee members who participated in one or more of the recent board of reviews. Then I make two copies of the signed forms before heading off to buy the badges. There have been a few times when a Scout finishes his rank requirements - including a board of review - just a day or two before I head to the store, but after I've already printed the Advancement Report form using TroopMaster, so I'll simply handwrite the name, badge, and completion date at the bottom of the printed form. So far the Scout office has accepted that. Do you by chance print out a separate Advancement Report form for each Board of Review date?