Kahuna

Same response to Gern and Merlyn: It has nothing to do with police or ethics. It has to do with different laws that apply to people in different situations. Inside the U.S., you have specific laws that govern people's rights. You can't even ask them questions if they request a lawyer. Outside the U.S. you have the Geneva Convention which has to do with military combatants of nations that have signed the Convention. Taliban and Al Queda and a host of others don't fall within any of those protections. I don't think the U.S. should engage in pulling out fingernails or attaching electrical cords to people, but I do think waterboarding is harmless, unpleasant and has produced some valuable information. I'm sure that answer won't satisfy either of you, but that's all I really have to say about that.

>>So if waterboarding isn't torture, you'd be ok with the government performing it on your children if they deemed that they had information they think they needed

>>On what basis do you claim it isn't torture, Kahuna?

>>The US attorney general disagrees with you.>> I'm a better lawyer than he is.

>>Were the Japs signatories to the Geneva Conventions?

>> I just got around to watching 'Dark Knight' and as far as movies for Citizenship go, that ain't it. But I really did like those clown masks

As far as I know, no part of FOS goes to National. Fees paid to National by local councils come from and are based on membership. FOS contributions go to council operating budget and facilities.

>>Pardon my cynicism, but is this the change we were expecting?

>>We need another iron-fisted dictator to drag Wood Badge kicking and screaming away from its CEO superstar theory and back to Hillcourt-based Patrol Leader Training.

I've always thought tents should come with a relief tube, like fighter planes. Would save a lot of trouble.

I would definitely recommend Two Lives of a Hero. Easy to read, no complex issues, modern language, not hard to find a copy.

--Second day in office and already the blithering right wing conservatives in this forum are spouting their idiocy-- And how long did it take liberals to start in on George Bush? Oh, yeah, they started before he took office because he "stole the election." "blithering right wing conservatives?" "spouting their idiocy?" That's an example of Scoutlike speech?

--Editorial comment: Biden is an idiot-- Yes, he will be very entertaining over the next 4 years. Dennis Miller has already conferred the nickname "Doofus" upon him. I don't think he will disappoint.

--So do you have any cites of successful court cases against federal involvement in health care or education, on the basis that the federal government lacks the power to do so?-- Of course not, Merlyn, there was no need for court cases on such an obvious point until the federal courts were filled up with activist liberal judges who ignore the Constitution and just act on their "feelings". Our Constitution created a government of specified powers. Maybe you can find where it says "A Right to Health Care," but I can't.

No, no North Star or tree identification in the old WB, but you had to learn a lot of camping skills in a week of living in the woods and quickly preparing and cleaning up 3 meals over a campfire.

--Kahuna I can only explain myself from my set of experiences and situation, that is what I am trying to do-- Which is the same thing I'm doing. --To rage against the BSA continually is of no benefit-- I agree and try not to do it. In fact, the only place I ever do it is on this forum. Scouting has enough old f**ts sitting around pining for the good old days. I just feel we are headed in the wrong direction and it saddens me. I've been part of Scouting for well over 50 years now and would like to see us return to a program that worked quite well for 50 years or so.

---Perhaps one of the reasons it was changed was because of the good ol' boy network that seemed to develop, being invited, having to know the right people to get into the select group--- It may have been that way in some areas, but not in most. It certainly wasn't that way for the national course at Philmont. Anyone who really wanted to go to Wood Badge could. The only "catch" was the week of vacation time, which I admit was a drawback. The reason it was changed is the same reason the rest of the program was changed in the 1970's: It wasn't mod enough. For anyone who wasn't around in that era, "mod" is sort of like the Age of Aquarius or something where everything had to change because the old ways just weren't hip enough. As Kudu says, that same pre 1970's method would work much better today than the "new, improved" version of Scouting that we have. At least re-invention has caught the attention of the print media. There was an article yesterday in the Orlando Sentinel about Latino Cub Scout initiative, featuring pics of a local pack with some Latino boys.

I must confess to having mixed emotions about the leaders of today. I still maintain that it was a huge mistake to re-invent Woodbadge as an executive management course and let people do it on a series of weekends. I hope I'm not one of those "back in my day" guys, but when I took Woodbadge 40 years ago at Philmont, we didn't learn anything about executive management, cultural diversity, or sensitivity. What we did in those days was to spend a week camping out by patrols and imitating Boy Scouts. The end result was we were leaders who understood from personal experience what boy leaders and members of patrols should be doing. That doesn't appear to me to be the result of Woodbadge or any other leader training today. Professional training was lot different then, too. I didn't go to NTS, thank God, but NEI at Schiff was very different from the training (which I'm not really sure what they get) of today.

BSA got through the 1929 Stock Market crash and the Great Depression. They did, but a lot of councils had one professional at that time and some of them, like "Coach" Anderson of Nashville, worked another job and did the Boy Scout one for free. I don't think that would happen today. OTOH, it would be interesting to see what would happen if all the professionals left and the volunteers ran the councils.

I can't answer all your questions, but I'm sure those who have hiked the trails of Philmont recently will give you plenty of advice. I will say that as a young adult leader going to Philmont from Mississippi over 40 years ago, one of the really exciting things about the experience was the bus trip. Most of us had never been out West and we really had a great time going to and from. I don't know what the cost comparison is, but you already are aware of the transportation problems from Denver to Philmont. For me, I would travel by bus, car, van or whatever it took rather than fly. Good luck, whatever you decide. It's an experience your boys will never forget.

Amen to that, Eamonn, and thank you for stating that so eloquently. It is partly because of this tendency that I sometimes despair of the future of the BSA. I was in the military for 30 years and never heard as much discussion of rules and regulations as we see in this forum.(This message has been edited by kahuna)

Since the last Scouting magazine featured an article on a Boy Scout polar plunge, I would assume they think it's a great idea.

Why would they need council approval? They might need a tour permit, otherwise it's a swim. Looks like they had plenty of safe swim defense there.(This message has been edited by kahuna)

Re-invention, revision, revisitation, revival or whatever you want to call it, it ain't working like it's supposed to. If it was, 11-13 year old boys would be beating down the doors to get in. They aren't. I'll be at the 2010 Jamboree and see for myself how it looks from there. From here, it don't look so good.

Looks like the current Scouting magazine gives some clues as to where National is going with this stuff.