Kahuna

Our standard Venturing uniform is the US Army dress uniform of 1863-65 I don't think there would be much room for confusion there within the meaning of the BSA prohibition.

While Sea Scouts may use actual Navy uniforms, we take some steps to distinguish ourselves from U.S. or foreign naval or merchant marine. Also, Sea Scouting is kind of "different," historically from the rest of Venturing in terms of uniforming. Having said that, reenacting, especially with the resources you seem to have, sounds like a lot of fun. IMHO, the restrictions on wearing U.S. military uniform applies to the normal uniform of your unit. I assume you don't hold meetings or attend Scouting ceremonial events in military uniform unless you're doing it "in character" as reenactors. I'm sure you are aware of the legal restrictions on the wearing of medals, decorations and honors unless the wearer has been awarded them. Sounds great to me.

Had you bought gold in 2001, it would have been less than $300 and ounce and today is around $1000. And it will probably come in handy, along with Spam, when society collapses.

You first need a good enzyme cleaner that you can soak them in. Years ago, these were sold in supermarkets, but now you have to go on line to get them. Patches from the eras you have can safely be soaked in these. Overnight usually. You can use a toothbrush on heavy stains. Another cleaner you can use is called K2R. It sprays on, sits until dry and then is gently brushed off. Some use Oxy Clean to soak them. Once they're soaked, rinse them, dry as much as possible with a towel, lay flat and let them dry. You will generally find that they are limp and sometimes misshaped after cleaning, but you can use spray starch and an iron to straighten them out. Some of the backings that are used for uniform mounting will work, too. Don't try this with the older felt patches. Good luck. Edited to add: I just went on line to price some of the cleaners and boy are they expensive. Probably I would try Oxy Clean first. Maybe others will have suggestions.(This message has been edited by kahuna)

I was in college in the South. We had a lot of guys whooping it up when the announcement came, just like Packsaddle was saying in his school, but most of the students were very somber and quite a lot showed up for the memorial service on Monday. Last night I watched a VHS tape I recorded some years back. It was the NBC kinescope reoordings of the live feed from the time they picked up the first reports. Brinkley, Huntley and some others were all sitting around taking reports by phone and some live feeds from Dallas. Nothing from the scene, just announcers talking. Lots of misinformation. People in TV news say that was when it really came of age. It was a far cry from what we have today. No CNN, no live anything.

I don't think you'll find that written anywhere. As MB counselor, as far as I'm concerned, my word is final. In the example you gave, I think the counselor would be doing the right thing by asking some questions rather than just taking the Scout's word. A Scout IS Trustworthy, but they've been known to fudge the details a bit at times.

You're welcome, guys. Thanks for reading it.

we would be in a full scale depression worse than 1929 Give the Dems time, just give them time.

the moon landing. Moon landing?

I can't think of anything beyond getting other people the heck out of the way, and keep from getting trampled yourself! Nope, 1911 book says you run alongside the vehicle (the danger to the public would be the vehicle, the horse by itself wouldn't be a big deal) with one hand on the shaft to keep yourself from falling, grasp the reins with the other hand and pull the horses head towards you. That's supposed to slow him down so you can turn his head towards a wall and he will probably stop. What would G2SS say about that! $1 in 1911 would be $22 now I'll bet it was a lot harder for a boy to come by than $22 today. In my neighborhood you can pick up $15 mowing one lawn.

Ideals of anything are generally impossible, but I think it is reasonably possible in the BSA of today. The key, I think, is to take all the training you can get, understand the program and then use your best judgment in any given situations. The problem today is that many of the new leaders coming in don't know any better than to follow the training blindly. Some things, like G2SS are pretty much non-negotiable, but even within that bureacratic, legalistic document there is a lot of flexibility. It's true that Lem Siddons is fictional character and the movie is a Disney version of a book by McKinlay Kantor. But it captures one of the true ideals of Scouting: it's a game that's supposed to be fun for boys. Only when you get past that can you start looking to build character and citizenship.

I'm getting my "Don't Blame Me, I Voted For McCain!" bumper stickers! Let me know when you find one, I need that, too! Scary four years ahead, folks. Unfortunately, I think your responses are going to be along the lines of, "He can't possibly make it any worse than that bad, evil, nasty Bush." Just a guess.

This is excerpted from my draft manuscript. I thought some might be interested. I first met Joe Davis when he was the director at Philmont in 1965. A unique and almost overpowering personality, he had a singular handshake. Everyone who has shaken hands with Joe knew to beware, because when he grasped your hand, he pulled you toward him in a way that totally throws you off balance. Supposedly, that habit and the strength came from his rowing days at Cornell. But many Scouters, especially the old-timers, have some idiosyncratic gimmicks that they throw at you just for fun. Joe began his Scouting career as so many professionals do, as a 12 year-old Boy Scout in 1924. He was at the time working in a butcher shop, cutting up meat with sharp knives. He became an Eagle Scout in 1928. He graduated from high school in the middle of the Great Depression and could find no job, so it was suggested to him that he go to college. Joe went to Cornell and talked to the Dean of Admissions for the forestry school. While he was sitting in the mans office he noted, among all the photos and certificates, a picture of two boys in Scout uniform. The dean informed him that the Fall class was not only full, but over booked. Still, he asked why Joe thought he would like to be a forester . Joe answered that enjoyed the outdoors and had many woods skills developed in Scouting and that he was an Eagle Scout. The dean then responded that one of his sons had just received his Eagle award and that he thought he could find a place for Joe in the class after all. Joe graduated from the Cornell School of Forestry. He then went into the Civilian Conservation Corps, working for several years in the Catoctin Mountains in Maryland, doing reforestation, building roads and a water supply, much of which still exists. The area where he worked and the facilities he built are now well known as Camp David, the presidential retreat. He left in 1943 to become a professional on the staff at Philadelphia. While on the staff of that council, Joe was camp director at Treasure Island Scout Camp, which is the oldest camp used by Scouts in the U.S. (It was not solely a Scout camp when founded.) Treasure Island is the camp mentioned earlier as the spot where the Order of the Arrow was founded. It has recently been closed and sold. He later served in councils at Washington, D.C., Roanoke, VA and Chicago. In Chicago, Joe was Director of Activities, which included overseeing the camping properties. During his tenure there, he served as director of legendary Camp Owassippe, the oldest Scout camp in the U.S. It is still operating. So, in his lifetime, Joe Davis served as director of the two oldest Scout camps in the country in addition to being one of a short list of men to be Director of Camping at Philmont Scout Ranch He became Director in 1965 and served in that capacity until his retirement in 1976, when he moved to Frederick, MD. During his over 20 years in retirement, he continued to serve in Scouting and other community organizations. He was quite active in the Philmont Staff Association right up until his death. Joes first year at Philmont (and mine) is today known as the Year of the Flood. Just prior to the start of the camping season there was a lot of rain in the area for several continuous days. In mountainous country, rain in one part of an area can run down and collect in streams and reservoirs until they all overflow. This happened in June, 1965, at Philmont. At the time, and probably today, the summer staff of Philmont arrives and spends about 5 days at Camping Headquarters getting trained, briefed and equipped for their summer in the hills. The last day is known as Operation Scatter. On that day the staffs of the camps all over the large ranch and their equipment and food are driven to their campsites. These are usually sites with cabins for the staff and some are quite large with a number of buildings for different activities. Late afternoon and early evening, the flood started. All the water that had been building up in the hills for days was unleashed on the ranch. Normally dry streambeds and washes turned into raging rivers. The main bridge between Camping HQ and the southern part of the ranch was knocked out by boulders and trees carried in the raging waters. On the road between HQ and the town of Cimarron, a four or five foot wall of water washed at least one car and its occupant off the road. The occupant spent the night in a tree and the car was found weeks later miles away. Several camps were flooded out and the staffs escaped on foot to make their way to higher ground. It became a rescue operation overnight to save some of the young men. Directing the whole operation was Joe Davis. Always calm and reassuring, driving his four wheeler where it could help, talking on the radio to cut off camps and then, the next day, trying to get the ranch functional again so that when the young campers arrived for the experience of a lifetime, they would get it. Hiking itineraries that had been planned for months had to be changed. Staff members had to get out and hike all the trails on the ranch to see which ones could still be used. It was a monster operation for a new man on the job to oversee. Somehow, Joe made it all work. Campers arrived and went on hikes and the other activities of the ranch continued, maybe not quite as usual, but it all worked. Joe had a great influence on many young men who served as staff members at Philmont during his tenure and after. He truly loved Philmont Scout Ranch attended a staff function in August, 2008. I well recall that after my last summer season at Philmont, I was called to active duty in the Air Force and ended up at MacDill Air Force Base in Tampa, Florida. It was rather a pleasant place to be stationed during the war in Vietnam, but a little lonely in the beginning, and quite different than my college days and Scouting summers. During my first year there, Joe Davis came to Tampa for some Scouting function. I contacted the council office and left my contact information with them in case Joe was inclined to call. In fact, he did call and we had a very pleasant conversation which boosted my morale considerably. I always thought that was a very thoughtful thing for him to do. I saw him again at Philmont in 1968 and at that time was able to tell him how much it meant to me. I had almost forgotten until I saw his memorial service that one of Joes favorite expressions, which was heard several times at the service: Carry on! One of the speakers gave a personal recollection from the last days of Joe Davis life. Joe had been taken to a hospice, where he was unable to eat or drink. He remained in good spirits, however, and having visitors. While cleaning out Joes home, a couple of his friends had found an unopened bottle of 7 year old whiskey. They brought the bottle to the hospice and Joe told them that it had been given to him over 30 years before by another friend, now deceased. They opened the bottle and asked if Joe wanted some. His answer was a definite, yes. Of course, he couldnt drink anything, so after some thought, they got one of the swabs on his bedside table, dipped it in the whiskey and put it in Joes mouth. Joe sucked it dry and asked for another. He did this several times and enjoyed it greatly. Yet another speaker said that Joe was not a glass half full or glass half empty person, but that he was always a his cup runneth over kind of guy. Joe Davis was awarded the Silver Beaver, the Distinguished Eagle Award and the Silver Sage Award of the Philmont Staff Association. Joe passed away peacefully in October on 2008 at the age of 96.

I don't know if any members knew Joe Davis. He was Director of Camping at Philmont from about 1964 until 1976. He died in October at the age of 96. He had attended a Philmont Staff Association reunion at Philmont in August. Joe was an Eagle Scout, Distinguished Eagle and many other awards earned in support of Scouting after his retirement. He also had a memorable handshake that you would never forget if he ever shook your hand.

It's the same chart as on the national website. It's a final chart, not an early one. This is the new setup. I agree it doesn't entirely make sense, but that's the deal.

emb021: Please keep us informed. This is all still somewhat unclear in my mind. Thanks.

Thanks to both. I have PM'd you both. BTW, I now have a small website up at menofschiff.org. There's one bio on there and some info about Schiff. Anybody else?

It's still very much an ongoing project. I have bios on about 20 old-timers, famous and unknown, mostly gleaned from council histories. A hundred or so book pages without photos and footnotes. I was able to interview a couple and working now on some local guys who were legendary in these parts. I'm still seeking input. Not long ago, a contact put me in touch with a former Regional Executive who is still alive, so there are still some out there. My problem is just to find them or their bios. There are a lot of council histories, but some are very scarce and some are quite expensive.

Computer operators in Dayton, Ohio are not in a hostile environment Well, you can never be sure. Depends on their bosses. As I indicated above, the service determined one "fatigue" type uniform, with the exception of desert wear, that everyone can wear. I wasn't in a hostile environment doing research at the AF Historical Agency in Alabama, but it was dusty in the stacks and I wore BDU's, which was the standard in those days. It's just a matter of common sense, I think, that each service have a uniform that can be worn in the field and for other grungy work rather than different ones. I just don't see the issue, I guess. I noted when I was in Hawai'i, that the Army medical staff at Tripler Hospital frequently wore their camouflage uniforms and I'm sure they were seldom under fire there.

I can't address the other services, but here's some background on the USAF. In the early nineties, the only one complaining was Merrill "Tony" McPeak, the USAF Chief of Staff. He, BTW, is generally considered to be a few blades short of a fan by all who have worked with him. That would include yours truly. McPeak spent all those bucks redesigning the uniform to look like an airline pilot. Nobody, really nobody, liked it. When McPeak left, the first thing his successor did was to get rid of some of the sillier modifications. Still, no one was terribly excited about the uniform. So, I'm not surprised that they are changing. I saw the AF Academy Band this morning playing for Veteran's Day and they were wearing the "stand-up collar" version of the trial uniform, which I thought looked terrible. Apparently, the powers have decided to go with the "Billy Mitchell" version, which is more like the uniform looked when I joined up in 1965. Needless to say, I like that one. As to camouflage, the USAF people do operate in hostile evironments and may as well wear that rather than the old olive green or gray. When they are in the desert they wear the "chocolate chip" desert tan. Besides, it makes them look more like real warriors.

You're welcome!

I was one of the people on that list you mailed to. I had been traveling in the U.K. when word of his death showed up, several weeks after the fact. While I was certainly nowhere as close to him as were you, I still felt I had lost a good friend. I only wish I had been able to spend more time with him. It was a memorable experience.

That's hilarious. Better write it down. I always have trouble remembering later some of the cuter quotes from them when they get older.

I don't think it makes much difference what you pay them. I agree they are pretty well taken care of, but they do it for other reasons: power and fringe benefits. Some (Kennedy, Kerry) don't need the money at all. But all of them can make a good living on the rubber chicken circuit, writing books and articles and generally being famous and powerful. Legally or illegally, they make plenty of money without a congressional salary.

Saying that Democrats dislike the military is a talk radio talking point It's also been my personal observation. Of course, there are exceptions, but when Democrats are in power, the military suffers.