Aquila calva

ASM59, You are asking some of the best questions these days. And thanks to Eamonn for inspiring the good questions, and asking a few himself. After Eamonn's response in the other thread, I had the same question so I am glad ASM59 started this thread. There seems to be some difference in opinion and resulting advice. Here is one real-life situation. Our troop had two crews go to Sea Base this past summer (the Out Island program). We had a great time! There were nine scouts and four adult leaders. I went along as an adult leader to help fill the BSA requirement for two adult leaders per crew. (By the way, I was in one crew and my son was in the other crew.) There were two crews, so there were four adult leaders, as required. I paid my own way, out of my own funds earned from my "day job," and the resulting expenses came to about $1,100. Three of the four adults also took vacation time from their jobs to go on this adventure, including me. I was happy to go along, but I would have been just as happy using my vacation time in a different way. Last April I asked my tax-preparer about these sorts of Scouting expenses. (The tax-preparer is a CPA who used to work for the IRS.) She told me that these out-of-pocket expenses for volunteer assistance could be taken as a tax-deduction, especially since my participation (and the expense) was to help fulfill a requirement of the BSA. If the troop didnt provide the two-up adult leadership, then the scouts could not participate in the program. (If my tax-preparer is wrong about this, someone please tell me.) I know that some troops, in this same situation, will pay the fees for the required adult leaders. These funds may come out of the troops general fund-raising and money-earning efforts, or the funds may be added to the cost of each of the scouts going on the adventure. In my example, this would have cost the nine participating scouts a total of about $4,400, or $489 each. In the scenario where the leaders fees are paid by the troop, the fees are really coming out of the scouts pockets because any money that is not being used to directly assist in covering the youths expenses, is actually costing the youth more money. But it could be argued that providing adult volunteer leadership, and paying their expenses, is part of the cost of the Scouting program. If the troop (or the individual scouts) pays the fees for the adult volunteers, does this constitute taxable income to the adult volunteer? Probably not, since it is part of doing the business of a tax-exempt volunteer organization. The volunteers time is probably worth more than the fees paid by the troop. If the scouts dont have willing and able volunteers, then the scouts dont have a program. Now the question comes upWhat happens when an extra adult volunteer wants to go along on the trip? Are his/her expenses tax-deductible? Or, in the case where the troop (scouts) pay for the extra adult leader, is that really taxable income to that extra adult leader? Oh, the tangled webs we weave! Anyone have other advice?

You are a very generous fellow. Your troop is lucky to have you as part of the leadership. $350 (or a lot more) is probably too much for one family to contribute to the troop's operation on an ongoing basis. Talk with your committee chair and treasurer and let them know what the actual expenses are associated with getting the trailer to the camps. They need to understand the issue and deal with it. Let someone else pull the trailer next time. Maybe the Scoutmaster is willing to do it. Troops handle the travel expenses in different ways. In our troop of 35 scouts many parents are willing to drive, partly because the camps are not too far away. For summer camp the troop gives a reimbursement to the people pulling the trailer. Last year it was $25 each way. This needs to be increased. One person pulled the trailer up and another pulled it back and they were happy to help out. When we plan high adventure trips we include an amount in the total fee that will be used for transportation expenses, including the cost of gas. Also, when you do your taxes, check with your tax preparer about how to handle your fuel expenses for Scouting. Begin by keeping receipts. Have fun Scouting.

Where in the Scouting liturature does it say anything about troop committees handing out suspensions and probations to scouts? Can anyone point to these directives? Maybe I missed it! It sounds like the troop committee is getting Boy Scouting mixed up with the local school system's discipline/behavior policies. This is Boy Scouting! Let's do what we can to follow the program as described in the Scouting publications. Again, maybe I missed it.

First the committee dies and then the troop dies. Where is the Committee Chair in this situation? (as Eamonn referenced in his post) There is in-fighting on the committee, the CC needs to deal with it. The Scoutmaster calls to say he cant come to a meeting at the last minute. He calls the CC and the CC deals with it. The Scoutmaster doesnt take the lead on helping with campout preparations and staffing, the CC deals with it. Not enough drivers for a campout, the CC deals with it with the aid of the Outdoor/Activities Coordinator (or some troops have a Transportation Coordinator). After the CC gets tired of "dealing with it" he/she will get the wheels turning on recruiting a new Scoutmaster. Is your Committee Chair related to your Scoutmaster, by marriage or blood? If the answer is yes then they both need to be replaced (this really is the responsibility of your COR) or you might as well find a new troop or start another troop. Start checking out other troops before you announce your resignation from the current troop. The news will filter out and you may see some change, or you may not. Its about the boys, but sometimes the adults can really mess it up.

I have a dream... http://www.usconstitution.net/dream.html

A troop committee is not a "Board of Inquisition." Scoutmaster and Committee Chair need to get their act together and then talk with this parent together. Tell him the story they have heard. Tell him he needs to protect himself and all the scouts by taking the online Youth Protection Training. And what about the scout who tried to pull down the pants of another scout? Sounds like the whole troop needs to take the Youth Protection training during a scout meeting (with all parents invited) so that every scout and parent knows it is totally inappropriate to pull down the pants of anyone else!

I just killed a big spider in my tent, with my scout knife. It was really big and it took two stabs to make sure it was dead. What holes in the tent? Oh, oh!

Dear mjengels, It may be most helpful for your troop's leadership team to talk about this subject directly with your district executive. Your original post makes no mention of your troop's participation in a Friends of Scouting campaign. This may be the best way for your troop to support your Council. Of course, most of us here want to be as supportive as we can be to our Councils. We also want to provide opportunities for our scouts to be able to afford camping trips and all the other expenses associated with Scouting.

Can anyone reading this thread tell us about a case where a Scouting official on the district, council or national level actually solicited money from a Scouting units bank account? This could be for Friends of Scouting or any other purpose. I hope not. Perhaps this thread is just another example of units making up their own Scouting program, as altruistic as it may be. The popcorn sales program, unit fundraising activities (including money earning projects), and Friends of Scouting are all different and distinct activities in the Scouting program. They all involve money, but they shouldnt be confused, one with another.

This is getting things mixed up WAY too much. Scouting units are not expected to give donations to a council. Money-earning projects are carried out on the unit level to support the unit (Pack, Troop, Crew, etc.). Any money earned from these efforts belongs to the unit and by extension it belongs to the chartering organization. Most of these chartering organizations are themselves not-for-profit organizations. Nowhere does any scouting literature say that a unit (or a chartering organization) should (or is expected to) give money to a scout council. Does it???? This would be transferring money from one non-profit corporation to another non-profit corporation. A councils Friends of Scouting campaign solicits donations from families, individuals and corporations. Most of these contributions are tax deductible contributions. Scouting units are encouraged to sell the scout-sponsored popcorn, but the amount going to the council is a business arrangement between the popcorn company and the scout council. Please donate to your councils Friends of Scouting campaign through the Family Friends of Scouting or through the councils corporate contribution program. But don't give your unit's money directly to the council.

Isaiah 40:31 "But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk and not faint." With wings as eagles!

"We have all sorts of kids. We have popular kids, uncontrollable kids. We have some not-so-popular kids. It's all over." Very insightful. "Uncontrollable kids," indeed. Onward. Thanks.

When a scout displays really bad behavior, it is important to inform the parents or guardians and include them in a plan for improvement. Scout leaders should try to do what they can to help the scout find better ways of dealing with a given situation. This process of behavior intervention should not be confused with a Board of Review. When adult leaders, or older scouts like the SPL, are dealing with a behavior issue many aspects of the Scouting program can be used to help. Including some discussion about Scout Spirit is certainly appropriate. Just dont call this process a Board of Review. The BOR has other important purposes primarily related to a scouts advancement.

In following up on an incident involving bad behavior, get the best leaders you have to help deal with it. These can be SM, ASM, or MC. Perhaps you have a Chaplain on your committee who has some training in dealing with these sorts of issues. Involve the parents of the other boy, too. Be sure they know what is going on. Create an environment where the issues can be dealt with in a fair manner relating them to the Scout Oath and Law. And make the meeting(s) fairly short. There should be no need to get into a play-by-play, or a he-said, he-said replay of the incident. Since your son was involved, you may want to ask a couple of other adult leaders to address the issues with the two boys. (Your son may appreciate the chance to talk to a couple of other adults, too.) You could attend the beginning of the meeting and then excuse yourself to give the boys a chance to talk with the other adults. You should make it clear to the scouts, and the other leaders, what your position is on behavior issues. You are the Scoutmaster. The PLC needs to know what is going on and what kinds of things they can do to help avoid a repeat of the incident. The more good ideas they come up with on their own the better. But they need to be taught, too, otherwise they just repeat what they have learned on TV or from their home environment, and that, sometimes, can be not good. A lot will depend on the maturity level of your SPL and the rest or your PLC. And since the other scout involved is a patrol leader, sounds like there is plenty of room for growth. There always is. Sometimes, when you are dealing with a scout who displays bad behavior, and you try to involve his parents in a solution, you find out where the child learned the bad behavior in the first place. This can be particularly difficult. Get help from your other trusted leaders! And then sometimes you find out the parents are as good as they can be and should be part of the leadership team. Then you recruit them and hand them a leader application.

Getting back to the original post for another view.. Some good advice and comments have been given on this event. I will add some comments from the point of view of a committee chair who had to deal with a similar situation several years ago. I never want to go through that again, to be sure. You handled the situation very well and your son knew immediately he had done something very wrong. It really gets extra hard to deal with when the scout doesnt realize or wont acknowledge he has done something wrong. After all, they see such behavior all the time on TV and in movies. Whats wrong with it, they ask, nobody got hurt. After an incident like this it is a good idea to have a follow-up meeting with the scouts involved, and their parents or guardians, to make plans for moving forward. Also, help the scouts involved talk to each other about what appropriate behavior should be, relating it to the Scout Oath and Law. This is best done by the Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmasters. This could be looked at as an expanded Scoutmaster conference. Pete, you are new here, and your story hits on an important topic, the troop committees proper role in this type of situation. From PeteMs post, the asst. committee chair said both boys would have to appear before the troop committee. Be careful with this. The troop committee is not a Board of Inquisition. The scouts should definitely not be placed in front of a large group of adults who have volunteered to fill roles including treasurer, secretary and equipment coordinator. Dealing with an individual scouts occasional inappropriate behavior is not what the whole troop committee does for the troop. For the sake of the scouts and the troop, a preadolescent or adolescent scout should never be placed in front the whole adult committee for some kind of question and answer session because of a misdeed. In our troop this could be a group of up to 12 adults. Even an Eagle Board of Review has only a few adults review the scout. Several others made comments about the committee including two, very experienced, contributors. From SemperParatus Sounds like its been handled by the committee and there is no 'proceed next' to be done, at least officially. From Eamonn While I think the Committee Person may have made a few mistakes, for the most part what he or she did was in keeping with the guidelines of the BSA. It is up to the Committee to deal with both Lad's. As active Leaders we at times find it hard to allow the Committee to do what they are there to do. These statements seem to be pointing in the wrong direction and may be giving the wrong impression about the role of the troop committee. This could lead to this scenario: We let the scouts have knives. The Scoutmaster, ASMs and older scouts train the scouts in the proper use of the knives. As soon as there is an incident of bad behavior involving that knife, we turn to the committee members and say you deal with it. By the time the secretary, treasurer and equipment coordinator get together for their meeting, it is probably long after the incident and the committee is learning about it second and third hand. This type of system is not a good way to deal with problems in a Scout troop. (One good thing about your situation is that you turned to other leaders at camp and asked for help and guidance and then immediately followed that direction. The fact there was a member of the troop committee at camp was only coincidental. The other leaders could, and should have come to the same decision based on what was best for the troop and the individual scouts, at that time.) Teaching good behavior is part of the Scouting program.It is part of the trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly part of the program. This is taught primarily by the Scoutmaster, the Assistant Scoutmasters and the youth leaders in a troop. The troop committee is the troops Board of Directors. The committee primarily handles the operational, organizational and business aspects of a troop. The Scoutmaster needs to keep the committee informed about what is going on in the troop, including specific behavioral issues. That is one reason the Scoutmasters attendance at the committee meetings is so important. But the committee takes action on behavioral issues only after the Scoutmaster has exhausted other means of dealing with problem behavior including involving the parents and guardians in finding a solution or new direction. The troop committee is not some kind of judge and jury. The troop committee becomes actively involved in the process when the scouts behavior does not improve. Discipline problems that might lead to a boys permanent removal from the troop should be handled by the Scoutmaster and the troop committee and should always involve the boys parents or guardian. (Scoutmaster Handbook, 2005 printing, page 133, under the heading Inappropriate Behavior. In the 2003 printing it is on page 131. There is also a section on Dealing with Behavioral Concerns on the following page.) When a scout infringes on the points of the Scout Oath and Law, who deals with it? The answer is the program leaders in the troop headed by the Scoutmaster and including the Assistant Scoutmasters, and the youth leaders. These are the leaders who work one-on-one with the scouts. The troop committee (as a group) helps the Scoutmaster do his job, but doesnt normally work individually with the scouts, except in the context of the advancement Board of Review where a few members of the committee conduct the review. There is also some more information in the Guide to Safe Scouting: Here is a link to the section titled Youth Member Behavior Guidelines http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=by Hope this helps.

Thanks for the update on your son's progress toward Eagle. It sounds like he is using his leadership skills in constructive ways. Once he passes his Eagle Board of Review he may have enough time (before his 18th birthday) to earn an Eagle palm or maybe two. He just needs five additional merit badges for each, and three months of service to his unit for each palm. Once he earns Eagle, it will be an accomplishment he will hold close to his heart for the rest of his life. And nobody can take it away from him. The challenges will fade, the success will remain. Keep us posted on his progress. There are folks here hoping for his continued success.

Congratulations, Eamonn! Three cheers. Membership Success! Adult Leadership Woes. Carry on.

Knottyfox must be referring only to posters from New York City. (OK, quick! Look around.Folks from the Midwest, California and Eastern Canada are laughing out loud. Folks from outside the U.S. [and the rest of Canada] are saying huh? Folks from the rest of the U.S. cracked a smile. Folks from NYC are lunging at their keyboards.) Have fun Scouting. (Just to be sure.That WAS a JOKE ..from a Midwesterner!) Humor on the internet can be soooo difficult. Stay cool.

Is there another lawyer/CPA/tax accountant out there with a different opinion? The troop is running a scouting program for the benefit of its members and for the benefit of the chartered organization. The chartered organization (not the troop) has the tax-exempt status (in almost all cases, and yes there are a few exceptions). If a scout needs a sleeping bag or a pair of boots to go camping with the scouts, it is part of the program. If a troop buys t-shirts and camp hats for all its members, can the members keep these items or do they need to be given back to the troop when the scout leaves the troop?

Check out the thread below from last February for more information on this subject. Our troop calls these accounts "Members' Activity Funds" because the troop committee has allocated the funds to be used for scouting activities, but this extends to uniforms and equipment for every good reason. If a scout needs a sleeping bag to go on a scout campout (they are included on almost every equipment list), there is every good reason to allow him to useactivity funds to purchase the equipment. If a scout is going to Philmont and needs a pair of hiking boots in order to be correctly outfitted then he should be able to use the activity fund money to purchase the boots. Maintaining these individual accounts can become a big job, especially in a large and active unit that goes on a high adventure trip (or 2 or 3) each year. The one change to the policyincluded in this link would be to limit the amount of funds that can be transferred from one unit to the next (in the case that a scout moves to a different unit). Let's say $1500 or so. Here is the link. http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=125312#id_125428

Thesaurus.com is helpful. Let's start another thread called "Hot-ones" at summer camp and see what we get.

Scouts go to summer camp anticipating fun, sun, learning, advancement and general good times. This probably doesnt include the fear that when they go to sleep at night they will wake up in the morning with a black mustache painted on their faces with a Sharpie. For those troop leaders who still think this is fun, at least have everyone put away their permanent markers. Only oil-based face paint, guaranteed by the manufacturer to be non-toxic and easily removed, is allowed. New committee position: Face Paint Coordinator. Have a good nights sleep. Youre patrol has latrine duty in the morning. Have fun Scouting.

Painting the faces of scouts with a marking pen while they are asleep is hazing. This is done to cause embarrassment and humiliation. It is hazing. There is also a changed technology part to this that cant be ignored. Most marking pens available now are the permanent variety. They are made so the marks are NOT easily removed. A scout really has to work hard to get it off his face. It isnt the old oil-based face paint that used to be available and that was easily removed by a few wipes with a wet cloth. In the old days an OA candidate may have had his shirt opened (or removed) and a red arrow painted on his chest, using oil paint. It could easily be removed. But this apparently caused enough embarrassment and enough humiliation to enough scouts that it is no longer done. Same with the three hard blows to the shoulder. If a scout today purposefully caused bruising on another childs body, it would be big trouble. Times change, folks, as does technology, and as does our understanding of human relationships. We hope for the better. By the way. Happy Feast of St. Benedict! From the Rule of Benedict Chapter 30: How Boys Are to Be Corrected Every age and degree of understanding should have its proper measure of discipline. With regard to boys and adolescents, therefore, or those who cannot understand the seriousness of the penalty of excommunication, whenever such as these are delinquent let them be subjected to severe fasts or brought to terms by harsh beatings, that they may be cured. It is a good thing that not everything written 1500 years ago is still followed to the word! "Cured" indeed...the abuse (hazing) just continues without interruption. We can help stop it! Have fun Scouting!

Just out of curiosity and without being too specific, what organizations holds the troop charters for the first troop, and the second troop? For example are they churches, civic groups, schools or other? When are the scouts scheduled to go to camp? How much time do you have to get this straightend out? If there are three scouts still in the first troop, how many scouts are in the second troop?

Rain pants: Take a pair of long nylon pants that zip off to become shorts. These dry quickly after a rain and give some protection from wind. Gloves: Crews are asked to do a service project and good work gloves will be needed.