John-in-KC

No, it's not the same everywhere. The Scoutmaster is the gatekeeper. He's also the cheerleader and the standard-setter. If he's content with laissez-faire and letting "This is how we've done it for 20 years," all I can say is encourage him. If you are rural, why drive an hour to a weekend campout? I'm at the edge of my urban area; I can be at 4 different established camps, or an any number of neighbors pieces of property, in 20 minutes. All the Methods matter... pretty much equally. Our job as Scouters is to educate our non-Scouter parents on why the Methods matter. Adult Association is no more and no less important than is Outdoors, Uniforms, Advancement, or Patrols... What's going to happen when Bobby, being 17, applies for a summer job two towns over, and his association with adults is the "familiarity breeds contempt" that allows kids to let it all hang out? Let him learn to develop some reserve, so that when he does interview, it's a success. OBTW, how many Scouts have gotten summer or after-school jobs because they met a MB counselor along the trail? I suspect more than a few. I'm not saying don't use parents, I'm saying use them conservatively, and I'm certainly saying (in spite of what National policy says) be very, very wary of letting Mommy MBC her own son for 25 MBs!

C21, You got rambling, and I'm confused. I think you wrote, since she discussed both Powderhorn and PTC Mountain Trek with her Crew Committee Advancement Coordinator, that those two are in play as outdoor goals accomplished. Are we in synch on that? Active reading... it's almost as challenging as active listening

Sweet mercy. She went out and backpacked (not hiked, BACKPACKED) over Baldy this summer, correct (EagleSon did Mountain Trek some years back).? She helped, as a youth member, pilot course a Powderhorn (granted, an adult training course, but you need victims at the test flight stage) for the Council, correct? There are times to have friendly cups of coffee, and there are times to be decisively firm with an Advisor. See how far your daughter gets on her own. When she's about to hit the feather-lined brick wall (which really does sound pretty soon), get with your contacts in your District, and then make the call of where you need to be on the scale... it'd be nice to deal with this on the friendly cup of coffee level, but unreasonable folks deserve decisive firmness. There's a time when praise in public, rebuke in private just doesn't work anymore, and public humiliation is the preferred way to get the point across. You know where you need to dial that rheostat. I have a war story on that... but it'll wait another day

eghiglie, That's why I keep saying the CC and the SM have to have each others' back. Their vision and goals for the unit should support the "big picture" vision and goals of the Chartered Partner, the licensee of Scouting from the Council. They should be at the level of kinship where neither has to ask about raiding the fridge for an adult beverage as they mull the unit on off nights. If CC and SM do not have each others' back, life gets exciting for the youth and families of the unit very, very fast, and very, very badly.

OT aside... Hey, Nike, Where are you at in Beautiful Transatlantic Council at the moment? We now return you to your regularly scheduled debate... OK, we agree. If the PLC is not listening to the SM, sometimes a tough lesson has to happen, and Mr CC may be the right guy to bring it home. Of course, all of this presumes the Troop wants to let the youth do the major program decisionmaking and the planning/doing (short of driving) that makes the program happen.

Even better than US Scouts: The BSA Website. BSA Requirements #33215/33217 is online: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/joining.aspx

If it's a pre-req, my read is strength and endurance to undertake the training. I hear what you're saying on the guidelines, but remember G2SS does not apply to the resident camp programs. National Camping Standards do, and I'm not an aquatics management guy in the BSA system. It'd be useful to hear that take.

Nike, If the Committee has to say NO, then one things has happened, and one thing needs to happen: 1) The Chair and the Scoutmaster are not cross-talking well-enough about left and right limits. IMO, the Chair does not have the Scoutmaster's back! 2) The Chair, representing the support side, then needs to go to the SPL and PLC and explain the NO answer so the youth can learn. Trust me, the youth will have some tough questions. The Chair needs to be prepared to defend the decision.

That is correct. ANY program side person in Troop 123 SHOULD NOT participate in a BOR within that Troop. Now, if you're a DL in Pack 123, and a Committeeman in Troop 123, all is well. Now, your comment about the Outdoor Activities Chair needs to be laid at your Chairman's feet. One of his key tasks is fill the chairs of his committee. Of course, the need for an outdoor activities keyperson, on either program or support side, depends on how strong your PLC and its operating people are. If they're strong enough, perhaps the only thing adults need to do are the inherhently adult in nature items: Tour Permit planning and Coordination, Safety Afloat "adult in charge" stuff (even there, a well qualified youth in aquatics might be better than some adults I've seen), and range management for rifle/shotgun ranges.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Well, Merlyn, You fit the modnern internet connotation of a Troll. I have a rule about trolls, from my days posting in various usenet fora: Don't feed them. While you may have purpose to folks who follow your agenda, my sole perception of your purpose here is to rile those of us who care about Scouting. You succeed all too often. I'm not going to fall into your trap anymore. If your writings show up in a post, then mine shall not.

If your unit reads and follows the Scoutmaster's Handbook and the Troop Committee Handbook, the Scoutmaster ex officio is a member of the committee. He reports out the program to the committee and lays out resource needs. The Committee's task is then to support the PLCs requiremens as spoken by Mr SM. The ASMs oberservations, comments, and such are carried to the committee by Mr SM. I truly wonder how many units there are where the Committee is not "the committee of the whole of all registered Scouters in Troop 123." Sorry the answer isn't quite as straight as you wanted. Can you give us more of the background on your question?

Considering that from everything I heard, National is moving BSA Lifeguard to be a "support pool based aquatics", I'd work from a position of this is in a pool. As far as turbid and clear goes, here is the BSA standard, as written in G2SS, with the backsources to other pubs: Water Clarity Swimming activity in turbid water should be limited to surface swimming. Turbid water exists when a 12-inch white disk at the depth of 3 feet is not visible from above the surface of the water. Underwater swimming, headfirst entry (except for racing dives), and board diving are not permitted in turbid water. Supervised instruction in lifesaving skills and surface diving may be conducted in confined areas of turbid water not exceeding 8 feet in depth and free of bottom hazards. Snorkeling and scuba skills are taught and practiced only in clear water. Clear water exists when a 12-inch disk at a depth of 8 feet is visible from above the surface of the water. Primary references: Tours and Expeditions, No. 33737 and Health and Safety Guide, No. 34415 As always, boldface denotes BSA policy. Can anyone come up with the equivalent National Camp Standards?(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Tell you what Merlyn: You seem to care about this an awful lot. Maybe you should be in a CAP Wing with a Youth Squadron that is co-chartered with a Crew. If you are, go try and file a Federal lawsuit to see if the District Court thinks the issue matters. Let's see how deep your pockets are. Let's see if you have standing to complain about this. Certainly I know BSA will work to defend itself and the CAP. If you care that much, put your vast fortune where your mouth is. If not, and I will be decidedly less than Friendly. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Oh, horse manure, highcountry. I made Life Scout in my youth membership in the 60s and 70s. On my sash (yes, I have it): - Drafting: Mr Schwing, my 7th and 8th grade drafting teacher, signed off. Yes, he was a certified counselor in the San Fernando Valley Council. - Metalwork: Mr Dunlap, my homeroom teacher and metal shop instructor, signed me off. - First Aid: A local dentist, not related with our Troop, but a MBC in our district, worked with 5 of us for two months. - Hiking: Mr Wright, our SM, took that one on. Our Troop did a 50 miler for First Class and above each summer. I was 12 my first year on the trail. - Camping: Oh, gad, that old guy. That's where my nerves resulted in dermatitis. But I learned that bloody diamond hitch. - Swimming: I did that through my swim lessons at the local pool/swim school. The owners were MBCs. - Atomic Energy: Rockwell International did a district-wide program. There were about 40 Scouts in the program. It took us about 2 months to do all the factory tours, then they had several staff engineers, MB counselors all, individually test us. - Cooking: One of the Dads dealt with that in-house. - Conservation of Natural Resources: I did that at Scout Camp the summer I was SPL. - Forestry: I did that one of the years I went on the trail. We checked in at base camp, did a prelim session. When we went on the trail, we did our middle work. When we came off the trail, we were tested. - Coin Collecting: The local coin store owner was an MBC. - Lifesaving: Did that at Camp Mataguay the summer of 1971. Same camp I did Conservation, same year I was SPL. It can be done, even now. Here's what it takes: - NETWORKING among adults. Jack Smith down the road is a doc and trains EMTs. He's a First Aid MB Counselor in Troop 123, but he's not Troop Only. Gee, this'll sound like Wood Badge: USE ALL YOUR RESOURCES. Send your kids to Dr Smith. - Mentor your PLC to think about themed activities which can contribute to a MB. There is nothing wrong with the Troop wanting to provide time resources for the Bicycling MB. One campout includes a 15 mile ride, another a 25, and a third the big 50. The kids still have to find someone for the testing events, but the true 600lb gorillas, the rides, are done. - SM makes a judgment on each MB event to see if it matches his vision and goals for the kids. If it's a gimme program, he passes. If the kid has to work, and has a chance of walking away with no signed MB, something is probably going right. The Scoutmaster is the gatekeeper. It's a pretty good mantra for the MB program.

MamaCM, Where to begin? First, I'm concerned there is not a budget for your Pack for the coming program year. I strongly recommend you and your CC, working with the DLs, get your needs together and see if what you have supports what you need. Think about in building your budget: - Den supplies (crafts and such). - Admission fees for activities for Dens. (I do not believe a DL should pay for stuff out of his/her pocket) - Recharter for 2010: $15 per kid and Scouter, and $12 per kid Boys Life: $330 +$150 (I SWAG 10 adults) + $264 = $644 + $40 charter fee... you'll need about $700. - Awards: I'm probaly low siding at $1000. - Camp Fees: Day Camp typically runs $50 a head for the week. Cub Scout Council Sponsored Family Overnight typically runs $50 a head (boy and adult partner) for the session. Webelos runs around $120 a head. Can you see the budget is running up pretty fast? You need to know how your unit chooses to pay for items. Some pay for everything on a popcorn fundraiser cycle; others pay for certain items and insist the family have some skin in the game, still others keep a small treasury and the parents/kids pay activity by activity. GUESS WHAT? I am really thinking that before you or the CC accept the books, you want your Chartered Partner (meaning the COR) to call for a full-scale audit, to include justifying the decision of the prior administration to send $330 per boy to the Troop. Cover yourselves. Help the outgoing people get either an unconditional release of responsibility for the $$$. Insist on an audit. One of the most important Committee positions is the Treasurer. Cub Scouting is not inexpensive, but it is high value. Many of us here will do all we can to have your back. You and your CC, take position specific training together, then work very hard to have each others back!!! Good walking on the trail.

SM goes to the CC, has a cup of coffee, and sends this message: "This is the program the youth have requested. My support needs from the Commitee are x, y, and z. Please have my back and make it happen. If not, please give me some very good reasons why the adults are trumping the youth." Now, if the SM and CC don't have each others back, there are bigger fish to fry than youth scheduling, and those bigger fish aren't very tasty

From what I've seen... - The CAP youth love COPE/climbing. - They love Venturing camps. Time for all to let their hair down. - They love not having to scramble for outdoor space to do training. - They love that the outdoor space is not a grassy pool table surrounding a runway.

My church has an AHG startup, but no Scouting. Got to remember, AHG has the same age reach as Scouting, so you have to look at the Packs as well. I would think: - Age appropriate activities. - Mutual advancement opportunities. - Fundraising. - Service to the Chartered Partner.

About 1/2 mile from where I sit, there is a CAP youth squadron. It also charters as a BSA Venturing Crew. Why? Access to resources. Our Council has 1200 acres of wildnerness within 20 miles of where I sit, and it's inside the urban area now. High COPE, GPS land nav, survival camping... climbing tower... weapons ranges. Yes, CAP can rent it outside a BSA Charter, but the cost is exponentially greater. We have another reservation with 1000s of acres of wildnerness within two road hours of where I sit... same facilities and more so. So, Merlyn, if you forbid CAP youth squadrons from concurrently chartering as Venturing Crews, where do you propose they get the physical resources to do some of their activities from? DOD is going to be cutting its budget soon, not increasing it. In the case of this particular CAP youth squadron, the Chartered Partner is actually the local VFW post... so technically the CAP is not in the BSA loop.

I say again... I have no problem with a 19yo Soldier, Sailor, Marine, Coast Guardsman or Airman taking WB. I can guarantee you they've had at least one, and in the current fraci, perhaps many, AW-#### moments. Most young people in the Armed Forces are a distinct minority among American young adults, though..

For me, it's that raw awakening moment, the one that bashes you upside the head with a very painful life lesson. Some of mine include: - The day Trooper Bill had to be escorted to his off-post quarters to get his gear for deploying to Fort Drum ... and refused then to leave. Lesson learned: If they don't want to go on a major deployment ... something deeper is happening in their lives. In his case, he was a dealer. - The day my former battalion XO was crushed in his jeep in a 3 truck wreck on REFORGER, because he insisted on tailgating the battalion fuel 5ton. Keep your distance. - The day one of my gun chiefs dunked a charge 2 Green Bag (very low muzzle velocity to drive a 100lb bullet) in the wipe bucket before loading it ... and had himself an in-bore stuck 155mm projectile. When it comes to weapons safety, there is no substitute for doing things by the numbers every time. - The day a former battalion commander (I was out of the battalion by then), the XO, the S-3, the CSM, a firing battery commander, HIS XO, First Sergeant, and Chief of Firing Battery got relieved for cause ... because they shot 8 rounds out of the impact area on a test firing. The Corps Artillery commander was not amused, to put it mildly. The lesson reinforced: It takes teamwork in weapons safety, and there is no substitute for doing things by the numbers every time. - The day a Sergeant in my battalion, walking home on the railroad tracks, drunk, was killed being clipped by a freight train. Two lessons: Leaders in charge have tremendous discretion within broad limits of program. The Bn Cdr had the whole battalion go to the guys' memorial service, no matter that we were on Post Support detail that month. The other lesson: If you aren't well and need help, by golly ask for it. Every one of those lessons happened between my 22d and 27th birthdays. They are part of who I am now.

I think the CC, CM, and you need to "divide and conquer" the Bear parents. Contact each and every one. Get a sensing of what's going on. It may be that nothing is going on, and the parents don't understand Scouting. It may be something else. I agree... 120 is too big. It's time to think about splitting this monster. At a minimum, you need many more leaders. You should be running 15 dens, with DL/ADL/Den Chief per den. That would get you the BSA standard of 8 boys to a den. Your Pack is running an average of 11 boys per den, roughly. You should be looking a split when the new dens will have 5-6 kids each.

E92, Agree with you here. Garbage in = Garbage out. Too many Councils seem to blow off data entry for adult records. Of course, I've seen some horrific youth member records too. It got to the point where I asked for a copy of the pdf printout for each youth approaching Eagle, then submitted a summary advancement report along with the Eagle app to get his record well. Here's hoping this young boy gets a 90% solution or so.

Eagle92, Having been through Basic myself, Basic is 8 WEEKS of continuous AW-#### moments. Ask Gunny. Ask any other veteran on this board. You ain't lived until your Drill comes into your bay, turns your double rack over, gouges the floor doing so, empties your wall locker, dumps the tray of your footlocker, because Jackson and Smith had their beds not perfect. We cannot replicate that level of pressure and teamwork in Scouting. We're preparing young people for teamwork and pressure approaching that level, be it collegiate football, the military, university level forensics teams, university band, whatever... A mature and responsible adult looks to the 2d and 3d order consequences of his or her actions. Way too many young people these days do not do that. They need mentoring far more than they need to be a mentor. In my years, that 19 year old private soldier? Yes, I'd probably accept him for WB. He's had that AW-#### moment. He understands pressure and teamwork, in a way Scouting never will want to teach. That's all the more so if he's come back from a shooting tour in one of the sandboxes.

Beavah is right: You have some idea in your own heart, and our word should be our bond. Thinking back to the forever thread about Eagle, units, and youth earlier this summer, I guess I want you in a position where when you do deny an endoresement of the Eagle application, the BSA advancement process will stand behind you.