John-in-KC

I think we now have two pieces/parts evolving ... One part is dealing with Mom. I like Lisa'Bob's idea of a SM conference with Scout and Mom, talking about duties and expectations. The other part is an off-the-reservation District Commissioner. SM and CC really do need to have a business talk with COR and IH, get their support, and then go to the DE, District/Council Advancement Committees, and Council Commissioner.

BTW, just like PW Derby, lots of awards to think up and give out! - Best decorations - Best sportsmanship are two that come to mind!

Cory... Venture, Venturer, Venturing, Adventure... As long as we are all on the common grid of 14-21 coed program of BSA... At the same time, when reading a new visitor to the campfire, I want to be sure he is discussing Venturing, the program, and not a Venture patrol in a Troop. To me, the fundamental difference between boy-led in the Boy Scout program and youth-led in Venturing is the level of management and accountability. We can entrust the youth to drive themselves to activities. We can entrust them with the Treasury ... depending on State law ... we can even entrust them with the records management. It does depend on them and their willingness to accpet maturity and responsibility, but I get to watch the youth in my Crew plan an Eagle Court for 6 of themselves, who got it done at 16-17.

The COR is a voting member of the Council Committee and the District Committee. Google on COR Duties and you will get any number of Council COR training packages that say that. "Mr Chairman, I move for a vote of no confidence in the Commissionership of...." It's a nuclear option, because you never want to burn bridges, but it's an option on the table. On a more practical matter, as a COR, I'd more likely be asking the DC (especially the DC, not the UC) to be talking to me and the IH, as well as the SM, and not responding to the parent directly. That is not what "being a friend to the unit" means.

1) SM should NOW, TONIGHT, be talking with the COR. COR has authority, push come to shove, to tell the District Commissioner to butt out. 2) SM should, tomorrow, have a long talk with the District Advancement Chairman. What do other units do? 3) SM should find a copy of the old unit JLT package. Every POR has a detailed job description in it. SM should have PLC write up a contract between POR holders and the Troop. Doesn't have to be formal, can be done around the flagpole "on my honor." As a COR, I insist my Scoutmasters visit with any POR candidate before taking the job, AS WELL AS WITH THEIR PARENTS. A POR isn't just a commitment from the Scout; it's at least in part a commitment from his family. Not all understand, but they need 20/20 vision on this going in. YIS

Remember, the progression using the Boy Scout rank advancement system to Eagle is NOT THE SAME as being registered in a Boy Scout Troop. A Venturer who has earned First Class, in a Troop, can continue to use the Boy Scout rank advancement system to Eagle. From my Venturing NLE specific training, Crew Advisors/Committees are NOT authorized to award Scout, Tenderfoot, Second Class, or First Class. To enter the Order, in gneral, a young man must be a registered Boy Scout in a Troop. Once in the Order, he can be active in a lodge for his lifetime (as long as he keeps dues current). This is without regard to program membership. As emb021 said, election rules have changed in the past 30 years. Remember, the youth leadership of the Order has direct access to National. They have excellent Advisor support. If they think the rules should change, they will change the rules. It's not our lane as adults to be agents of change. We support them. (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

OK, we need to differentiate between REQUIREMENTS and RECOGNITION. The requirements of the Cub Scout program are linear in nature, save for Bobcat. You do Tiger work in Tiger year (generally age 7), Wolf work in wolf year (generally age 8) Bear work in Bear year (generally age 9) Webelos badge work in Web 1 year (generally age 10) Arrow of light as the youth approaches 11 and moves to boy scouting. Once a boy passes the age marker, he doesn't double back to earn the previous ranks and awards along the way. He enters where he is and goes forward. So... what was done in Wolf year doesn't get to be counted to a Webelo requirement. RECOGNITION, (in other words, the purple knot) is a different story. Each granting of a qualifying Religious Award authorizes the Scout to wear the purple-backed, silver threaded religious award knot. He gets to wear that ALL HIS SCOUTING LIFE ... literally, to the grave if he gives a lifetime to adult volunteer service. THAT SAID, we only wear ONE purple knot ... I believe the Uniform Guide has guidance on the little metallic devices that can be worn on the knot which deal with multiple religious awards. HTH His blessings to you(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Beavah, It's actually a mutually owned and supported sandbox. The contract (charter) obligates both parties. Still, what anarchist said is, imo, a viable working definition for these fora.

Funny, Adult patrols are the delivery vehicle of both New Leader Essentials Scoutmaster Outdoor Fundamentals and Wood Badge. In the military, we say we operate AS WE HAVE TRAINED. I find that comment a fairly true instructional model in adult learning: You use the practical model you were trained in... Food for thought, especially for those who are in the NLE training business...

Packsaddle, http://www.praypub.org The curricula has indeed changed, especially so since we 40-somethings were youth. Please note, I am discussing the Christian Protestant curriculum. Other denominations and faith families have their own packages. There are 4 tiers now. God and Me covers Tigers-Bears, essentially. It's a game, and the theme of the game is I LOVE JESUS. God and Family covers Webelos into first year of Boy Scouting. It's also a game, and the theme is "WE AS A FAMILY LOVE JESUS." God and Church is for 6th-8th graders (funny, that is confirmation age). Indeed, it parallels my Pastor's confirmation curriculum for 8th graders. It's designed to teach Christ as your personal Lord and Savior. God and Life is for high schoolers. It focuses on Paul's ministry, and I could use it as a curriculum in an adult class! HTH

I went and compared it last night to my sons' BSA necker... It's about an inch smaller in all dimensions. I think that was a cost issue. Standards of living in the 60s, while pretty good, aren't what they are today. It's triangular. There was a white tape, 3/4" running along all three edges. In all fabric edges, the fabric was turned under and hemmed/seamed with very very tiny stitches (on the order of 1/16" Does that help?

Hey Fred, In my own church, one of the things I do is look at the annual confirmation class for Boy and Girl Scouts (along with camp fire...). I know what Pastor teaches, I know what PRAY wants from the curriculum. The delta is about 3% (some of the church organization stuff in God and Church session 7). He covers it. We tell the parents: $4 for the PRAY book (which is a good resource) + however much for the various awards, and the young people get their religious award as part of their confirmation. Now, that doesn't work for Cubs... but it helps at the teen level. John

WEll, for that matter... One of the area Venturing crews is doing the RT flag opening Thursday. The published uniform for the youth is "Green Venturing Shirt, blue jeans." Their call!!! The Venturing specific NLE training told me so!!!

What anarchist said.

FWIW Cabela's has some great trou and shorts that are a 96% lookalike to the overly expensive BSA Supply Corporation Venturing trou/shorts.

A long long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, the Moms of my Troop made our neckerchiefs from fabric off the bolt at the fabric store. Nearly 40 years later, it is still serviceable. May I respectfully recommend doing homemade neckerchiefs? They have a wow, gee factor long after we grow up...

That's not the only item that is not made in colors for the Venturing green uniform. I'm a COR; there is no red patch for me in the Venturing side of the Uniform Guide Uniform is NOT a method of Venturing ... if your Crew wants to go to the expense of small lot "Trained strips" in Venturing colors, I'm glad you have the wherewithal. I have to pay for gas to support all those "hours a week"

OK. Sir, you are an Eagle Scout. You swore an oath, on your sacred honor, that is even stronger than the Scout Oath and Law. The Statement of Religious Principle gives you awfully wide latitude. It HAS TO ... to allow Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindi, Mormons and Shintoists in the same national Scouting body. Your faith cannot be open to compromise. It can be open to examination, to questioning, but imo who each of us is depends hugely upon our relationship with Deity. BTW, note I said Hindi above. From my understanding, there is room for polytheism on the table of Scouting. Now, if you ask ME about my personal faith, you will get a far less inclusive answer ... but I'm allowed that right away from the Troop. Within the Troop, the faith choice of a Scout is the call of their parents (and eventually the Scouts themselves) ... and my witnessing is not acceptable conduct. Our mission as adults is to raise young men and women. If your belief systems are in flux, may I respectfully suggest there are other vehicles to teach outdoor living that do not have the primary mission of raising up young folk. Remember: The outdoors is our program vehicle, not our bottom line of big ticket aims. It may be this is not the moment to return to adult leadership in Scouting, for you ... but only you can answer that question. I wish you well in your journey. If you find the campfire is the right place, well, there's log right over there!

Beavah, IMO adults who function as a patrol should function AS A PATROL ... this means doing their own grub, thank you. Adults should also be available to coach and assist, but the youth should be learning more by doing than by being told what to do...

ACTIVITY... NOT FIELD. They botched it again. Tooth of Time Traders has activity pants from Columbia already. http://www.toothoftimetraders.com/philmont/ We need stuff that qualifies for the Class A uniform.

Lisa, A thank you is always appropriate. One of my professional mentors told me: Sometimes the little things in relationships now yield big results later. Civility and courtesy together form the grease that keeps relationships lubed.

Mr jmenand, I didn't see you making comment in and around the youth of the program. Dissent by simply speaking can be counter-productive, and, as in any private organization, can cause your removal. That's being blunt. Please remember that Scouting is an organization involving community based service organizations and businesses. Each organization which charters Scout units has a formal vote and voice in the Council. That person is the Chartered Organization Representative. Take the time. Study your issue from the BSA perspective. LEARN THE POLICY behind it. Formulate a rational, coherent idea of the desired change. THEN, and ONLY THEN, approach your COR and discuss your thoughts over a cup of coffee. He may tell you your issue, while important to you, is not worth his time and energy, or he may buy in. If he doesn't buy in, let it lie for some years, work hard, and some day you'll be in a position to propose change. Now, please understand something: One of the very largest "charterers" of Scouting is the LDS Church. As a national organization, they pay real $$$$$ directly to Scouting National (as I understand things) to license the Scouting program as their male youth-serving program vehicle. If your proposal would be considered anathema to a faithful LDS member, my gut says you will not get the time of day.

A Scout is Trustworthy. Scouters sign their adult leader applications "in the full light of day." This is particularly so for the Statement of Religious Principle. Having seen volunteers who work at the Council, Region, and National levels, I'm convinced there is an ongoing and healthy debate amongst both volunteers and professionals: What will best serve the ideals of Scouting and the youth of America? My suggestion to you is to serve at unit and district levels in areas you care about. Over the coming years, you may have the opportunity to be an agent of change. As far as an "I disagree" device ... imo, at the unit serving Scouter level, that is a counterproductive proposal. Read the first three points of the Scout Law, in their detailed versions, to see why.

http://hoac-bsa.org/CMP_CS_Bear_Camp.cfm Our Council specially built its Bear Camp operation!!! YIS John

I've been an Arrowman since 1970. The problem is that Camping and the outdoors is NOT the single program delivery vehicle for Venturing. Many crews do camp as part of their program. Others, such as Sea Scout Ships, are focused around the water. How do we count time for them? What about Crews that are focused around HS bands? I know a Crew that focuses on high altitude balloon launches (near space ventures). They don't camp much. How do you deal with them? To repeat: Venturing has huge diversity in its program delivery. To adapt the Scouting Honor Camping Society to Venturing is not one of the wisest moves in the world! Of course, here's my question: If a young lady, 18-21, who is an ASM, is selected by the youth of a Troop to enter the Order, where do we go from there?