John-in-KC

Mostly, what Scoutldr said. The Chartered Partner is the licensee of Scouting. The COR is, or should be, "the person on the spot" vetting leader selection and taking a constant look at the quality of the program and the quality of the support. One option is the friendly one: Go to the man's house and invite for a cup of coffee. Find out why he stands where he does. There may (and quite possibly are) reasons pre-dating your tenure. Another option is to get the COR involved: Same thing (have a cup of coffee somewhere) and work through how program and support sides help each other out. Another person who may give you help is your Unit Commissioner. The district Commissioner's Service has usually seen it all and has multiple answers to the problems at hand. Den leaders need a buy-in too: All Dens need to have something to do with Pack meetings, and it needs to be FUN stuff. We grownups can set chairs and sweep up afterwards, the kids need to do FUN THEME RELATED STUFF!! Skits, Flag ceremony, songs, games... fun stuff. My worldview only: The CM should also be the Pack Trainer. He/she should help DL's learn and do their jobs, so the program is coherent across the Pack. Again, my opinion only.

We have 56 Troops in our District, we cover 2 counties. Long ago the District Committee locked in the date as the 3d weekend in October. The date is deconflicted with both Scout Reservations (avoid workdays and off-season ceremonies), WB, WB reunion, and other sundry events. In fact, many of the Districts in our Council have Camporee this very weekend! District volunteers provide parking support, registration, and other management. One Troop is asked (about 18 months out) to take program lead, it recruits other Troops. We've tried, with only so-so success, to have a District SPL Council plan program. This year, we have a HUGE range fan set up; we are running shotgun MB for the first 200 Scouts who sign up. All pull together

In my District, DEs and other volunteers do event and administrative support. One Troop leads program, others as asked help.

Kudu, As I noted in my response to Eamonn, the volunteers of Scouting need to get together and decide what they want a young man to look like: At age 9 At 11 At 14 At 17 Then, they need to reverse engineer the program so the elements: 1) Crosswalk 2) Meet the vision 3) Show BSA as the premier stewards of the land Just one example: Is our camp cookery designed for the Covered Wagon (Dutch ovens and cast griddles), or for High Adventure (backpack stoves). Yes, I know I insist Cooking should go back on the Eagle List. That doesn't mean we cannot take a critical look at the task analysis of the MB. We don't need Morse Code by flags, or semaphore signalling. We do need survival mirrors. How badly do we need pioneering skills, or how badly do we need to inculcate the LNT ethic starting at Tiger Cubs? Among the volunteers within 50 miles of my front door are an educational psychologist, many docs, some really expert hunters/fishers/outdoorspeople, a BSA Ranger, and on, and on, and on. We need to leverage the power of the volunteer and rationalize the whole program, top to bottom. Of course, I'm prejuidiced, I think the 1965 edition of the Handbook is a great starting point for the 14 year old. I think we need to add more hikes at 2C and more camping/cooking at 1C. At the same time, adding the visit with an area citizen at 2C and "share scouting with a friend" at 1C are helpful as well.

Uhhh, We do have fitness requirements at 2d and 1st Class: Second Class Requirement 1b Using a compass and a map together, take a five-mile hike (or 10 miles by bike) approved by your adult leader and your parent or guardian. Granted, that is an activity, but it requires an ability to walk five miles at one swoop! Second Class Requirement 7b Demonstrate your ability to jump feetfirst into water over your head in depth, level off and swim 25 feet on the surface, stop, turn sharply, resume swimming, then return to your starting place. First Class Requirement 9b Successfully complete the BSA swimmer test. To wit: Jump feetfirst into water over your head in depth. Swim 75 yards in a strong manner using one or more of the following strokes: sidestroke, breaststroke, trudgen, or crawl; then swim 25 yards using an easy, resting backstroke. The 100 yards must be swum continuously and include at least one sharp turn. After completing the swim, rest by floating. (sourced from G2SS, but available in other places verbatim) I do not know how many adult leaders at Scout Camp over the years I've seen not take a swim test!

E, Across the board, newest Tiger to Venturing Silver, we (volunteers), not the National Professional Service, have to rationalize our program. We have to get a coherent vision of what we want a boy to look like: At 9, At 11, At 14, At 17... Then we need to build the toolbox to make it happen. One of our disadvantages is "self-described expertise" to be a Merit Badge Counselor. We need to re-look that. We need to leverage other organizations to describe "what right should look like" in subject matter expertise. If our program tool is the outdoors, then we need to look how we educate kids about the outdoors. The simplest element of LNT needs to be introduced at Tigers, and build up from there. We need to re-visit camping. Yes, I love a Dutch oven, but are we in the covered wagon era, or the "house on our backs" era? How much equipment helps us enjoy Nature, how much hurts the places we camp? We must be ruthless about keeping molesters away from our young charges. WE MUST BE SEEN AS EXCELLENT STEWARDS OF THE LAND My thoughts.

If the Advancement Report has gone in, you're done. If not, sit down with the boy and explain your error!!! The start of school is coming, have him visit with a friend about Scouting. He doesn't have to recruit the boy, he has to share the story. All the above said, if the Advancement Report has gone in, or you've updated on Internet Advancement, you're done. He's First Class. Council won't let you recant because you goofed. Learn the lesson.

Unfortunately, Ed, our opinions will not survive if the young man appeals to National. They probably will not survive at District, should he be turned down at unit level to begin a ELSP. We have to be smarter than the program experts at the Boy Scout Division.

Having body surfed as a kid in California, IMO Hawaii is probably going to have the true first-rate program. There is also the option of finding a Consultant in surfing. Crew/Ship heads for some nice state beach with camping facilities, does its own camp logistics (tentage, food, campfires) and having the Consultant deal with learning to surf!

Moneterey Bay Area Counci, California offers off-site surfing from Camp Pico Blanco. http://www.boyscoutsmontereybayarea.org/PicoBlanco/picoblanco.htm Googling, there are several camps which offer wind-surfing. Hopefully, an East Coaster can contact you about back there. Nothing popped up on Google.

I'm convinced most of our Scouts want to do the right thing, and learn at a reasonable pace. I'd like your gut-check: Over the years, how many young men have you had to lean on to get the leadership position or POR done to standard? As I have said elsewhere, I've seen one young man get fired; he was ASPL but so disruptive he was sent home from Scout Camp. That was the last time we ever saw him. That covers five years of Scoutering Troops and Crews and 6 years of youth membership waaay back when.

No, I don't think I've stated I'm diabetic here, since I'm not. If I accidently led people to that conclusion, I apologize.

We set dues at a certain level per year. When setting unit and per capital budgets, we look at costs: The dues support advancement, recognition, books, neckerchiefs, and day camp. We do wreath sales, as those are popular at holiday times, and all the $$$ stay with the unit.

Mr t158sm, Again, I strongly recommend a business visit with you, your Council Key 3, and your District Key 3. You may want to bring your COR along. Someone isn't holding up the BSA Charter Agreement, and from what you say, I don't think it's the unit serving Scouters.

Thanks for the additional information. Given what we've seen/heard in the past few months, here is the reality check: If, based on your Troops or your personal definition of active: Deny this young man permission to begin an ELSP, you can reasonably expect the District Advancement Committee, or the Council Advancement Committee to override you. Deny the Scout his Eagle SM conference, or refuse to sign his Eagle app, you can reasionably expect he will win an appeal at Council, if not National. The EBOR denies the Scout elevation to Eagle, you can reasonably expect he will win an appeal at Council, if not National. If there are other, legitimate, documentable reasons to hold him on the trail short of Eagle, you need to bring your UC and the District Advancement Chairman into the loop posthaste. You need to visit with your District Advancement Chairman on Monday. I'm sorry to be forthright, but preserving your credibility as Scoutmaster is important. Being over-ridden by District and Council does not serve your credibility as SM. Visit with your DAC. Monday. Please!!!(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

"If this troop does not hold the camporee, there will be no camporee or any alternative at all." "There is no such thing as program or administration support in our district." Someone needs to get the Council Commissioner involved in this mess. No standing date for Camporee? No support from the District? How in the Sam Hill is this council, somewhere in Alabama, fulfilling its obligations to Chartered Partners under the BSA Charter Agreement??? IMO, this is far, far beyond what we at this forum can do for help. T158SM, call you Council Commissioner and SE. Do it Monday Morning. Ask for a business visit with the Council Key 3 and your District Key 3. This is sickening. I'm glad you're there for the youth, T158, but the support you're supposed to get isn't there.

B, Wait'll Nusplash finds he has even less leeway with "Scout Spirit" than he does with "Active". Scout Spirit has been consistent, edition to edition of the BS Handbook (and other documents back to the source) for many years! Live the Oath and Law, Motto and Slogan in your everyday life!!! May I suggest, Nusplash, you buy your District Advancement Chairman a breakfast and visit over "what right looks like" inside your own district and Council.

It's not what date works for the host Troop. It's not what date works for the District Committee. It's the date that works for the Troops (and visiting Webelos II Dens) in the District. That's why events like Camporee are usually pretty well locked in to a specific weekend, year to year: We can count on them. If the date happens to be the weekend of the big college football rivalry that year, too bad, so sad: Bring a radio. Did the Troop sign up for Program support, or Program and Administration support? If it didn't sign up for Administration support, and the District folk handle the $$$, then it's time for all to come to the table and hammer out a compromise. That compromise may mean the District Chairman going to the Council President and asking for an alternate training date. It may mean the Troop surrenders the program. It may mean the DE finds another Professional to cover funds collection.

Except that what you just described is a misuse of the Scoutmaster's Conference. A Scoutmaster can convene a SM conference with a Scout at any time, for any legitimate reason! A Scout can request a SM Conference at any time, whatever is on his mind automatically makes it legitimate. We're not here to be bureaucrats about procedures and meetings, we're here to raise young men. If a Scout has tubed during the first part of his POR tenure, but the light blinks on, give him the conference, get him to a BOR, recognize him, and let's keep him moving forward!

B, If a kid isn't getting it, but is remoreseful, we've had a Plan B built into the program for years: The Scoutmaster Assigned Project. Give the kid a definite task and a definite timeline. Make it reasonable and do-able. Oh, IMO: Give him a JASM or ASM to ride along!

Welcome to the Forums! Have you considered: Setting a standard for cloth ? Buying cloth on the bolt? Cutting blanks? Asking parents who sew to hem the blanks? I ask this seriously; you eliminate costs of shipping and handling, as well as costs of labor in making the neckers. The Troop of my youth did this. It's almost 40 years later, and my necker is still serviceable! If you search on neckerchief in this forum, you will find several threads in the past year about locally procuring neckerchiefs. Overall, again, if you have a family or two who have embroidering sewing machines, you may be able to reduce your cost per item to almost nil. For that matter, who needs embroidery? The neckerchief of my youth Troop was solid green, with a 1" tape of white as a border. I still have it, and this fall it'll be 40 years since I was a Tenderfoot!

Avid, Sadly, at least one Council camp does not believe that only the SM can issue the TC. That's one of the blinding points of ASM's post!

Scoutldr, Sounds like your Camp folk need to come to the H Roe Bartle Scout Reservation or Pony Express Council's Camp Geiger and experience the Tribe of Mic-o-Say. I can promise you, each session, every session, every season, our camp has 150 fourth year campers, 120 fifth year campers, and on the order of 100 sixth year campers. The Scouting network that is the Tribe in Kansas City makes things happen. Have a great program, and they will come. In Friendship and Warmth, John(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

As a comment, swimming and Lifesaving probably should be in due course at Scout Camp. Our PLC chose to work Cycling as a multi-month activity, culminating in a camp with a 50 mile ride. Short of the final work, the unit program will take care of the camping log for Camping MB.

Use the monthly themes of Scouting. As the program works, integrate MB opportunities, but let the kids connect the dots on their own.