John-in-KC

I cannot speak to what policy your Council waives. I'm probably not in your Council . I can say that Bears are, by G2SS, not permitted to camp as Dens during the program year. They're permitted to attend a Council operated and staffed camp, and they're permitted to be part of Pack Family Camping, but not (even 1:1) as Dens. Webelos are, given the circumstances defined in G2SS, permitted to overnight as Dens. As Beavah is fond of pointing out, G2SS is a compendium of liability "gotchas." If you follow the tour planning and outdoor activity training procedures (BALOO, WOL (or its name THIS week)), you'll do ok. If you are genuinely concerned that your Council's policies on camping are not supporting G2SS, it might be worth a phone call from your COR to your DE to ask "please explain the rules and the 'why they exist' on Cub Camping to my IH and I."

Dawn, Like the others, welcome. There's lots of sage advice above which I won't repeat. I hope your District has a good Roundtable ... one of its main missions is to provide your SM/ASMs a "heads up" on the National program about a month out. RT dovetails with the program helps insert in Scouting Magazine and the articles in Boy's Life. It runs on a 3-year cycle which covers most of the major topics of Scouting. On the assumption your District RT is good, I'd encourage you, your advancement person (always good to know how the District Advancement Chair thinks), your SM, and his/her Assistants to attend regularly. One other thing: Have fun doing this. Some of the best moments in your life to come will be when a kid, grimy from a week on the trail, runs to give you an attack hug as he drops gear at trails' end There will be other victory moments, savor them for the kids' sake

E, I absolutely agree we should have fun here. I've been in the song thread that was once the Eagle and faith thread... I also think we need to be thoughtful when new folks approach us, just as we would at a live RT. In fact, in my District, a lot of the "fun" happens when the staff goes to a local restaurant after RT to come down off the experience.

I'm as guilty as anybody here. I look at the post and start writing. I don't check myself before I hit the send button, and my comments appear trite, snide, sarcastic, or outright rude. I'm trying now to look at the info the poster gives us... particularly forum registration date and number of posts written. It's in the upper left corner. We have a lot of institutional memory here, and we have lots of ability to interpret various BSA publications. Sometimes, though... we open our mouths and put our feet in. We do this with folks who are new to the Forum, and perhaps new to Scouting. We've probably lost Margaret forever here ... hopefully we didn't lose her as a potential unit serving Scouter wherever she lives in Colorado. Why? The language of our posts! We don't need to give a universal prescriptive of "take training." We can and should encourage training whenever appropriate. We don't need to start an expert level debate. We need to answer questions Beavah said it in a different thread... we need to be helpful, friendly and courteous, especially when we help someone new. If we need to tell Mom "your son should ask the SPL or the Librarian, and not get the answer direct from you", then we need to say that and explain Why. At the same time, we need to try and answer her question, so she has an idea of "what right looks like." My thoughts. YIS John

gigibw, welcome to the Campfire Your COR has expressed a desire. The Chartered Partner is the owner of record of a Scouting unit, and within the limits of the Charter Agreement, can prescribe policy for how units shall operate. If he/she says "no Patrol patches", it's a Nike "just do it" moment. I used to be an Owl... ... and I wear the Owl patrol patch superglued to my WB leather nametag, underneath. I believe there is a "Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America" prohibition against adults wearing articles specifically intended for the youth (merit badges and rank come especially to mind). To my way of thinking this includes Patrol patches, even if Supply Corporation sellss the "Rocking Chair" patch. We can and should model patrol behaviors to the youth, and we should let the youth grow and develop with us watching from a distance ... but we should not pretend we are back as youth program members. We adults serve the youth in their growth and development. Period. My opinion.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Margaret, welcome to the Forums! Back in the day (1969-70 or so when I was DC), we didn't have a patch for Den Chief, ONLY the cord. I like Scoutldr's idea. Cord, PL patch. I agree with TheScout that the young man should ask his PL (and on up until he gets a good answer). In a good world, I hope you can keep this information in your back pocket and see what answers your son gets.

Congratulations to your son for his Eagle!! Is he staffing NYLT at your Council Camp, or is he staffing NYLT staff training at Philmont? Either is wonderful!! I think an afternoon at the park with friends, with a few minutes for someone he admires to give him the Eagle Charge and make him recite the Eagle Oath, is a fantastic way to do an ECOH. He should tell his SM, thanks... but we're doing it outside

IF a mega-troop works to provide the leadship opportunities of a smaller (35-50 Scouts) Troop, then I'm ok with it. I can see a legitimate need for multiple ASPLs, QMs, Scribes and perhaps even the OATR. Sooner or later, more kids means more work for the incumbent. Certainly this is true for the QM, who at 100 Scouts is managing as many as 13 patrol boxes, 50 tents, heaven knows how many awnings... If the unit is adult-run or is not providing the resources, that's a different story altogether.

Not only should it not be permitted, someone needs to tell your IH and COR that you goofed up. A Pack FAMILY campout is in-bounds. Cubs camping as Dens (below Webelos) is out of bounds. How simpler can you make it?(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

You do not know how badly I want Dr Rice to say yes to being McCain's VP. I know it's wishful thinking... she's said NWIH more than once, albeit more civilly. Sadly, my dream ticket (Powell/Rice or Rice/Powell) will never happen. In some ways I think President has moved from the ideal of a George Washington to the workaday hack politician of a Warren G Harding. Sad... Does anyone know if O'Reilly was able to plant that college student into the Chelsea college visit today?

Enough Camp T-shirts so the kid in last session can buy one his size!!!

Fred, Are you saying a full-up BOR to review the ELSP? Now, there is, in ACP&P #33088, a requirement for a member of the Council/District Advancement Committee to review and approve ELSPs before they begin. I cannot imagine that folks have so much time on their hands that they can do a BOR level review of each ELSP proposed... I guess truth is stranger than fiction.

BTW, in our District, it is still Key 3. The Sr DE and the DE have limited speaking roles, in their particular lanes. The DD is responsibile/accountable for all professional service rendered.

Gern, Then they'd better re-wicker G2SS, SSD, and SA, if BSA Lifeguards are no longer going to be trained for "swimming hole" type events. I'll be interested in seeing how protecting the lakefront comes into play if there is indeed a new curriculum.

Oh, about 20 minutes before we bring the Candidate into the room for his EBOR... So far, I've been fortunate to sit Boards where the Candidate did something pretty WOW.

To my way of thinking, yes. Now, as Scott said, do I have a particular emphasis or challenge "of the moment?" Equally, yes. It's called life...

Ed, "With the approval of..." Even that is discretionary in nature. I would hope that a Scoutmaster makes one decision on how he'll do business (before or after) and then be consistent! That make sense?

Page 27 of ACP&P, left column, top 1/2 of the page covers 2C, Star, and Life service hours. No restrictions on service to BSA, policy encourages all forms of service... individual, small group, and large group. Calico, for the very reason you'd be having a conference, I'd be doing cartwheels of joy: The young man has figured out that service to others matters. I'd be looking for an external reason to give the kid some recognition for going above and beyond. EagleSon was in the youth choir from 2d grade to 9th grade. That was an hour a week of practice, all school year long, and singing at both services as often as not when the youth choir sang. BTW, we're talking true choir... we have a great director who taught the kids scales and sight reading early on. From my perspective, a young person giving that much work in church is probably giving it elsewhere, and I'll go to the matt to get him/her the recognition deserved.

Welcome Mr or Mrs Smith... I don't care if it's band, football, cheerleading, or Scouting... our own children do best when we give them room to grow. His SM and Crew Advisors deal with EagleSon as a Scout. His band director deals with him as a musician. I'm someplace waaay over in the support structure. It was bad enough on his ELSP when I had to eyeball him and explain why he had to be in uniform to sell his supported agencies! I see too many parents wanting to hover over their kids. Unless something requires a particular expertise you have, let him be SPL under the tutelage of the SM. Period.

That's too easy, Avid... http://www.nesa.org/trail/18-927E.pdf (Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Notebook) "Limitations Routine labor (a job or service normally rendered) should not be considered. Work involving council property or other BSA activity is not permitted. The project also may not be performed for a business or an individual, be of a commercial nature, or be a fund-raiser. (Fund-raising is permitted only for securing materials or supplies needed to carry out your project.)" For 2C, Star, and Life, see above. What's the adage??? "Neither add to nor take from." Do you see anything in the requirement which says a unit may not do service projects for itself or for BSA and have those count for rank advancement? I will further check ACP&P at home tonight.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

What was dumb was that the UC wanted us to make the calls...

I was advancement coordinator for my Troop a few years back, when National rolled out internet recharter. Do my work, build my packet, SM/CC/I spend an evening at the Mexican restaurant/watering hole making sure the info is right. Submit. Done. Signatures, check, give it to Membership Chair at RT. One of the neat things about internet recharter is it lists, by name, youth who have dropped Scouting. About 3 weeks later, my sorry excuse for a UC calls and asks "Why didn't you do the lost boy report?" HUH? (polite conversation version). "That's the by-name report to ask every kid why they dropped. You have to do it." Called SM and CC. We all agreed, the packet had the names. I called the UC back, said "it's on page X of our recharter." "That's not good enough." Too bad, that's what you're getting. You want to ask why, you can do it. (As it happens, two had moved out, one had aged out, and one was football/wrestling combination.) Called the DC. Asked him about this. He said it was the UC's job to do the legwork. So... what have you had to do for District or Council "because it has to be done" recently??

Congratulations to your son. Scoutldr covered many of the bases. The Order, to my way of thinking, supplements the basic program in several areas: - Leadership. The Order gives latitude for a young man who wants to grow as a leader. There is work to be done in the unit, at District (chapter) level, at Council (lodge) level, and even into BSA Region and National levels! - Service. Whether at Scout Camp now, or on a Trail Crew at Philmont after he's 16, the Order inculcates the service ethic. If it hits him as it once did me, the desire to help others before ones self will be branded upon his heart in just a couple years! - Thespianism. The Order offers the young actor or orator opportunities far beyond what he can do on a high school stage. Authentic costume research, design, and manufacture. Voice development so he can project in an outdoor ampitheater. Confidence in memorizing and carrying out major parts. - Fellowship. Your son will meet other young men from throughout the area. They'll see each other in bands, at football games, at basketball games, in forensics tournaments... some of the friendships will be lifelong! May he enjoy !

Everything I've read, from BSA Requirements #33215 to Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures #33088 gives tremendous discretion and deference to the Scoutmaster on the subject of service hours. If the young man is getting the concept of an ethic "to help other people at all times", then whatever he's probably doing is worth buying into. I'm a little hard pressed to buy into an acolyte, particularly in protestant tradition churches. Light the candles, sit down; at the end of service, extinguish the candles. It does give him a front-row seat for his worship notes for parish confirmation I'd be more inclined to buy into either cantor or youth choir. Both of those have commitments to rehearsal as well as the worship service. Who ever said service hours had to be "bricks and mortar", or "had to benefit the troop?" BTW, here are the requirements from #33215, as quoted on the BSA website: 2d Class: Participate in an approved (minimum of one hour) service project. Star: While a First Class Scout, take part in service projects totaling at least six hours of work. These projects must be approved by your Scoutmaster. Life: While a Star Scout, take part in service projects totaling at least six hours of work. These projects must be approved by your Scoutmaster. To my reading, at 2C, Star, and Life, the Scout is not responsible for project design, coordination, or resourcing. He shows up and does what he's told to do. The service activity can have a very broad horizon or a very narrow horizon.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

E, Would you settle on a return to New Brunswick? BACK!!!!! To the FUTURE!!!