John-in-KC

Sylvar, If the individual Scout comes to a MBC and says "I did that at Camporee", maybe or maybe not the MBC will buy it. If the SM refuses to give a Scout a laundry list which says "Every Scout did this, this, and this...", well, my opinion is that's within the SM's discretion as the principal Program officer of the Troop. Remember, we can only work with the facts as each poster writes them. From my perspective, your SM is trying to keep his Troop from being a Merit Badge Mill by accepting bulk work. I'm ready to say Hip Hip HURRAH! for that

Might help attract young adults if you published the base daily pay rate (instructor/counselor/asst area head/area head) the camp staff scholarship program basic work schedule (5.5 on, 1 reset, .5 off per week or whatever) and the quality of life in staff village... Considering high schools start graduating in 3 weeks or so, your Council is very late in the day recruiting staff. As I was taking intro to UC training Saturday, one of our Reservations had its 18-20 year old youth staff in teambuilding workshops for the season!

Sylvar, As it happens, there's lots of info supporting the MB program at the national website: http://www.scouting.org/media/factsheets/02-500.aspx overview page... http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/trainingmodules/merit%20badge%20counselor%20instructors%20guide.aspx That's the instructor guide for the MBC training module... http://old.scouting.org/boyscouts/supplemental/18-125/18-125.pdf (same as above as a pdf) http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/GuideforMeritBadgeCounselors.aspx The Guide for MBCs, which includes FAQ http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/GuideforMeritBadgeCounselors/FAQ.aspx Rank Advancement overview: http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/GuideforMeritBadgeCounselors/RankAdvanceFAQ.aspx Resources: http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/GuideforMeritBadgeCounselors/Resources.aspx NOTE BSA REQURIEMENTS #33215 is fully online... http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards.aspx Merit Badge Review http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/GuideforMeritBadgeCounselors/Review.aspx To your specific question: As a Counselor, I like to meet my Scout and say "Time zero is now." I will take significant "do this" requirements, such as the required trips for Cit in Nation, usually because the youth has much to tell about his trip. That said, I refused one kid who was trying to have me accept a visit when he was Tiger to the local police station ... that was too much a stretch. I don't like being told "here's an automatic list" because quality of the work, and quality of the training before the work, can be rather uneven. MBs are part of the Adult Association Method, along with the Advancement Method. I've seen one too many "pencil whips" to take a wholesale list any longer. Have fun on the trail

Scoutmomma, Yes, indeed, you hit a hot button Some of us have been going round and round about such matters. You've not seen how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin til you've seen the posters of scouter.com decide if something is or isn't Scouting Beavah advised you... But like OGE says, if it's a real concern and yeh want a more definitive answer, send your COR or IH to go see your council's business manager who handles the insurance issues. Make sure they express their concerns about continuing the units' charter, and ask to see the terms and limits of coverage for themselves. That's really good advice. Your IH or COR can get the answer in about five minutes with that phone call. Professionals really don't like to upset their Chartered Partners...

Riddle me this, If the Eagle Leadership Service Project is completely "outside the sphere of Scouting," as Mr White argues, how can all the statements below be true? Source: Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, BSA Publication 33088, 2007 printing, page 27: "The Scout must secure the approval of his unit leader, his unit committee..." "and the benefactor of the project." "The project must also be reviewed and approved by the district or council advancement committee or their designee to make sure that it meets the stated standards for Eagle Scout service projects before the project is started." The Council Advancement folks, in most cases through District Advancement Committees, are a mandatory go/no-go step in Eagle Leadership Service Projects. If a project were truly "outside the sphere of Scouting," then approval of the benefactor would be the last step before project execution. That's not opinion, that is simple logic. Further, the Eagle Board of Review has charge to accept a Candidate's work on his project as meeting the standards of who an Eagle is. Ergo, Eagle Leadership Service Projects has at least some purview "within the sphere of Scouting."

What everyone else has said. When I was a COR I had a new Scouter app cross my table. The person had a DWI. I talked with my Professionals about it. Put a condition on the membership ... may not drive youth other than own child to Den/Pack meeting, and could not drive other youth period. THe new leader accepted that as reasonable, as did the committee chair.

Mr Maxwell, Welcome to the Forums. Other than the insignia guide might reserve that pocket, ... When I was a kid all those patches went on a BSA nylon windbreaker Mom and Dad bought me as a birthday present.

Secret DE, Well said. There are employed staff and volunteers who choose, for one reason or the other, not to be direct contact leaders. We need all of them though, from the data entry clerk who keybangs in new leader apps to Scoutnet outside recharter season to the mechanic who gives of his time to keep the Scout Camp maintenace vehicles running one more season! My hat is off to all who serve this grand game.

Well, since this year I celebrate the 31st anniversay of my no longer eligible to vote in the Order, all I can/will say is: Aside from the symbolic progression issue (which can be overcome with a single tap)... some youth leaders along the way sure screwed that one up Nine Ways to Sunday. Politically correct or lawsuit averse wimps they were. That's the one right an adult member who was a youth member, and who VOTED, has. I'll ask my Reservation Ranger tomorrow, he was once Chief of our Lodge back in the day when ka-whumping was part of Candidacy... ETA: All these years I've known the Admonition and a couple of symbols peculiar to the Brotherhood, but I never bothered to see the word in print, and my 1965 edition of the OA handbook didn't have it in print! (and my 14 year old phonetic spelling in my 38 year old OA handbook isn't the actual spelling! )(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Acco, If the Scout says "On my Honor" I met the requirement, I'm not going to second-guess. If the requirement is signed off in the handbook, I expect the signer to have upheld the standard. That can be a youth who is authorized signoff, or an adult. Now, if in a BOR, I ask a question about what Bobby found enjoyable about cooking, but Bobby replies with "I didn't do that, but Billy signed me off anyway," all my questions are going to move to honor, integrity, and doing the right thing. My subsequent questions to the Scoutmaster will be "Why are folks signing off when the Scout didn't do the task?" That's a legitimate question the Committee may ask the Program Officer in the BOR role of program evaluation. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ All that aside, once Pandora's Box is opened, it doesn't close easily... if at all.

The Los Angeles Dodgers don't have subdued patches. Marching Mizzou doesn't have subdued patches, nor do the KU Marching Jayhawks, nor any of the Big 12 bands. If the fabric, fit and finsih of the uniform is more suitable for wearing out in the treeline than in the meeting hall, I'm OK. I think we can cut down the number and size of patches. Anyone else have the 1960s version of the Instructor patch? It's a quarter the size of the current standard patch. Take a look sometime at the well-dressed Scout in one of Rockwell's paintings. Far fewer doo-dads.

Cassie, Since I've not seen you before, welcome to the Forums. One of the key points of YP training is No 1 on 1 contact. If you can work with a family to double up for the drive to camp (and with gas blasting ever upward, the more people carpooling to a camp, the better), you can work through this particular challenge. That said, only you can decide if the weight of group responsibilities is such that you have to be there for all kids/parents, rather than multitasking 1 kid and den leadership. Have fun, hope this helped.

The problem with making an exception is this: The Scouts will perceive favoritism was shown to one Scout. Perceive it? It's ground truth. That contingency plan Venividi spoke about? It should include: - What happens when Scout A calls the SM on favoritism at a SM conference. - What happens when Scout B calls favoritism at a BOR. - What happens when Mr Smith calls the COR, or worse, the Scout Executive and complains about favoritism in Troop 123. Be prepared. The door's open.

OK, all you folks are current chiefs and Advisers ... Please cite the current rule which takes the tapout (THUMP, THUMPTHUMP!) and does the feather on the shoulder callout. Have we gone beyond crazy on the "no-hazing" rule?

TBG: Once recorded at Council into ScoutNet, there's no going back. Sigh.

Mark, Several thoughts. Where I ask questions below, they aren't for return comment, but as rhetorical questions to be answered within your unit Scouter leadership: 1) We have only the information you give us. The more information we have, the better we can tailor our feedback. 2) There are 2d and 3d order consequences to actions. You said "to put the higher priority on the aims of scouting instead of the methods of scouting". Ok, now, how does the Character Development aim get served when the young man bypasses the Personal Growth method by being Disobedient to the requirements for advancement? 3) The actions of the adults vis a vis this one Scout will shoot through the Troop faster than Superman's bullet. You've lowered the bar for advancement from the standard of "Do Not Add To, Do Not Take From." How does the Scoutmaster, or the next BOR deal with Scout Billy when he comments "Why do I have to pass the swim test? You allowed Jake not to go camping?" How do you deal with that when a non-Scouter parent objects to you? How do you deal when the District Commissioner asks to buy you a cup of coffee and tells you there's a parent complained to the Scout Executive about the double standard in Troop 123? 4) How will you deal with the situation venividi proposes, which ends up challenging the Citizenship aim and the Leadership Development method, when Bobby says "But you let..."? You've made a judgment call. We all do. What's done is done, and cannot be undone. I really do hope none of the possibilities above confront you while Billy continues his path up the trail from where he is now. From my experience in my part of the world, I'm betting one of them will confront you and your fellow Scouters, sooner than later.

Stosh, Imagine for a moment your Troop has grown beyond its current equipment. You have to provide common equipment to resource a new Patrol: Dutch Oven: 77 Trail Chef cook kit 76 Chef's tools: 40 Camp Stove: 116 4 Eureka Timberline tents: 160 each or 640 Patrol Fly: 191 That's a partial list of common gear, and the price is already $1140. You're going to charge your bridging Scout a $143 initial equipment fee over and above Troop and BSA annual dues, not to mention any outfit he buys on his own? We've already (hopefully) got him saving for uniforms, monthly camping and Scout Camp. Let's be honest, Scouting isn't (just as other extracurricular activities aren't) cheap. There's also ways to do this project: Do a full-up service project. Turn back the money. Do the project, take the offered money, re-donate it. How many church food pantries would be delighted with a gift of $100??? Do the project, take the money. Use it for capital investment in the Troop. Use it as a Scoutmaster contingency fund for the kid who can't go to camp anymore because Mom and Dad lost their job.

Michelle, It looks to me like you have a built-in purpose for this young man's BORs as he advances through Scouting: Introduce him to different folks and challenge him to build his confidence OK, you know him. I've known lots of Scouts who came to BORs I sat or chaired. No problem, as long as you're on the Committee side, not the SM/ASM side (and remember, that's the ideal world, not the real world of units). I think a conversation point should be about interpersonal relationships. We can help him. I think he may be well served with frequent BORs in the coming months and years. We don't have to hold BORs only for advancement, if it's a tool which will aid in his socialization skills, use it Here's to his growth and development

Methinks it's time for the Scoutmaster and the Committee Chair to get on the same sheet of music... and it should be the one that says BSA Requirements Matter. THEN... SM/CC probably should visit with Mom and Dad. Our program is designed for the outdoors. This young man needs some access to independence. What's going to happen when he's 19 and on his own at college? I agree heartily with the other posters in this thread!

I think every patrol can vary on that... Who was it who began a WB post... "Dear Food (err, I mean fellow WBers)..." I remember the poster was a Bear...

Glad you got through it. Take a couple days away from the situation, then list down the changes you want to make in how your run your den next year. Set that aside a couple days, then re-visit it, and try to assign a "why" and a "what I should expect" to each change. Some changes will be fully thought through and complete. Those are the ones you bounce off your peers. Some will be incomplete. Send them to the bit bucket for now. Here's hoping you have a great Summertime Pack Activity program!!!

Agree with Trev on starting a perpetual plaque. Many units have this in a prominent place ... at their Chartered Partner! (Helps them to see what's happening with the youth organization they sponsor). Also agree with scoutingagain about buying flowers for Moms. Some of the things we've discussed here aren't quite gifts, but are expenses the unit needs to plan to absorb, or to pass along ... I know one Troop which charges the Eagle family a $200 fee for its ECOH package

Thinking some more: B, This is one of those times I agree with Bob White. Training everyone well and truly to standard is a helpful thing. I suspect conduct of BORs is one of several symptoms in this unit. That said, let's focus on the problem. Yes, BSA has an online module, but it's really a POI, not designed for self-study. It seems to be designed for class presentation: http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/trainingmodules/board%20of%20review%20training.aspx This is one of those times where you might want to invite your friendly (we hope) Unit Commissioner to come in and visit with the unit. Give him a chance to show his abilities, give your adults a reason to come to a special meeting of the Committee (we're having focused training on the BOR, and we have a guest teacher from the Council). Like B, though, I think picking those people who you trust to be good BOR members is a good thing. On purpose of the BOR is its your opportunity to look in on the program presented.

One comment: Like Lisa, I'd contact whoever at your Council signed off on this. I'd ask: Is this already approved in terms of units submitting Money Raising Apps? If the Professionals say yes, that's a step you can bypass. There is one other option: Cut the youth out of the loop and do this purely with adults, purely as a fundraiser.

I learned to swim under American Red Cross curricula. I recall my swim teachers using lots of games, and they were built right into their programs, from Beginner up to Swimmer (again, their terms, not BSA terms). Do you have or have access to ARC curricula?