Stosh

Why would the older scouts want to change from having the adult do all the work to a system where they would be expected to work. It's kinda like getting dumped off welfare, of course they aren't going to like the change. Going from not being expected to grow up to all of a sudden now make the announcement that I have to mature? Not in the cards for most of the older boys.

From now until he turns 18, he gets to pick whatever POR he wants. Many of my Eagles enjoyed working the NSP as a TG. Others stayed in their venture patrol as PL and did nothing but sit around thinking up high adventure activities for the patrol. Either works for me. After 18, he can either switch over to a Venturing Crew if there is one in the area or he can do the ASM route and pick up the adult training he'll need for the future. One of my Eagles fell into this same age differential and aged out during his junior year of high school. He took the SM training during the summer camp that first summer and that fall (his senior year) he did Wood Badge. He's in the Air Force Reserves right now and both he and his wife (family of 4 Eagle brothers and an Eagle dad) are SM trained and WB trained. I'm thinking he's planning on staying with Scouting for a while. By the way he chose the go back and work with the NSP as a TG after he got his Eagle. He wanted hands-on experience working with the youngest of the scouts.

Why the ding? The forest can't burn twice in the same spot.

But alas, dear @@Krampus Why would out-of-state students want to come to your state when they can get a free education in their own. Remember, this is a socialist/communist system where the easy choice is the only free one. Luring out-of-state students so they can get a free education? Not likely. I'm thinking that the whole system would change if the only free option was one's own in-state state funded system. No Oklahoma student with any sense would pay to go to a Texas state school and pay out-of-state tuition when they can get a free education in Oklahoma.

This varies from one location to the next. I live in an area covered with top soil/vegetative mulch, then sand then more sand and after that more sand. The river bottoms do not make a good sample areas. So the river cuts through sandstone, from where the sand came from and it does have a mix of limestone in it, but that's about it. Other areas to the east of us have bedrock quartzite and other interesting rocks but for the most part the rocks that wash in are variable and interesting, but any strata sampling is pretty weak.

"There ain't no free lunch!" There's a cost to everything. While others may have to pay for one's "freebies", there is also a side of the issue that @@TAHAWK points out that the cost of "free" health care is in receiving only what others deem necessary and the loss of one's freedom to chose is the price one pays.

By "they" I'm assuming the adults? Maybe it's time they do get ready, they're the adults, i.e. the grown-ups! If per chance the "they" refers to the boys, then yes, they have been deprived of the appropriate outdoor education, leadership program that BSA has advertised. Read the Scouting brochure and start doing the program as promised. Disfunctional troops are cheating the boys of what they paid for. They call it "Bait-and-Switch" in the marketing world. Promise one thing deliver another.

So why shouldn't the state school go for the big payouts? Same holds true for the private schools. But the point still remains, if one wants a free tuition ride, they go with the local state schools, after all they must be good or out of state and international students wouldn't be paying extra for them! As a taxpayer, why should I pay for some rich kids trip to Harvard or Yale? It's the capitalist model. Here's the freebie, if you want something more, go shopping. A used car will get a person from point A to point B if that is the goal. They don't need a Ferrari or Lamborghini. If a kid wants an education I will help out with the used car. I own 4 vehicles with mileage over 100,000 and one over 200,000 miles. They get the job done.

Welcome to the forum. My only recent Cub experience is working with the second year Webelos boys. The program seems to be quite easy to understand, but maybe it's because it's been 20 years since I did the pins and ribbon thing and now the different units are a bit different. My boys seem to adjust well with the new program. The Arrow of Light required units and a couple of electives we are doing are really a lot better at making the Cub to Boy Scout transition than the old program. Sorry I couldn't be more help with the younger programs.

Common vision is derived from the program of the BSA. Unified leadership is derived from the training program of the BSA. I would suggest maybe as an alternative or even a last resort, run the troop according to ideals of the BSA.

My step son paid his way through a prestigious eastern college by commercial fishing in Alaska. Got a great job in a high tech business as an electrical engineer. He's back doing commercial fishing in Alaska full time, makes more money and has his winters off to travel.

If one wishes to go out of state, they pay for it. If one wishes to go to private schools, they pay for it. If they wish the tax payers to pick up the tab, they take the in-state 2 -> 4 year state schools for tuition free education. They might think they are entitled to a free tuition education, but the tax payer pays for nice state schools right in their own state that should fit the bill very nicely.

First of all, welcome to the forum! It appears to me that if one is going to be the new SM of this troop, a goodly amount of training on the patrol method might be in order, especially if it has not been used in the past. With the patrol method of my smaller troops size there is basically no need for an SPL. Each patrol leader does his own thing with his patrol and takes lead on the operation of the boys under his care. Each patrol is independent of the others and function according to their skill level and personal leadership dynamics. I used to be part of an adult run troop wide operation where the SPL was supposed to "take point". Basically it absolved the PL's of any and all responsibility and basically the adults eventually would step in and take over the activity. It was a never ending battle between the boys and adults and I got tired of it and found a new troop. If the troop is moderate to large in size one also has to take into consideration the skill level of and SPL. Most professional educators have their hands full with 20-25 students in their class at one time and the SPL, with no professional training is expected to take on that many boys or even more? That's a recipe for disaster in my book. This is why I like the patrol method where each boy has a maximum of 7 other boys to take care of which is a number a budding new leader can handle without being overwhelmed. My suggestion would be to browse back through the posts here on the forum for there has been a ton of discussion on the subject of the patrol method and with all the different variances one should be able to put something together for one's boys to be successful at.

I went the cheap route. State school, working part time, taking semesters off to get financially caught up, managed 4 years of college and 4 years of seminary and came out in 1980 $1500 in debt and $7,000 in the bank driving a new car. Go figure. It just depends on how badly one wants an education and what kind of sacrifice one is willing to make to get it. I'm sure these entitled students want Yale and Harvard free education. Instead would they be willing to go 2 years in a state technical college, then 2 at a state university for 2 years? I doubt it.

And now, Folks, one knows why outside interference in the Patrol Method of patrols being of like-minded friends is not a good idea and creates more headaches than it's worth. In all my years as SM I've never had issues like these, but then I don't poke a stick at it until it erupts into a melee either. Just because the SPL is messing with the patrols doesn't make it the patrol method. The SPL needs to be educated as to what that means before he does more damage than what's already been done.

If a forest fire is coming towards you and you cannot outrun it. Start a fire of your own and follow it down wind. Eventually your fire will burn a head of the forest fire cutting a pie shaped burn that will cause a break of unburnable material in the forest fire and go around you on both sides.

Our state started having the welfare recipients work for their benefits. There were a lot of negative media coverage on it, but then when they went out and interviewed some of the people affected by the new rules said they kinda enjoyed getting out of the house and meeting people who were going through the same struggles in life they were.

If one listens carefully to what people are saying, the college TUITION should be "free", still gotta pay for room and board and computers and books and supplies and transportation, and fees, and etc. It's going to end up to be pretty much a no big deal in the end. At least not the total free ride they are expecting....... Always gotta check the fine print at the bottom of the page before one signs.

Free? As in art? We have thousands of people both American and Illegal aliens that have made Free an art form.

When it comes to computers and technology, I found out way back when I was a Computer MB counselor that they were majorly a day late and a dollar short. The BSA "MB experts" were so Luddite that I quit teaching it. Even without the MB, kids were miles ahead of the MB material.

As one who is starting a new troop over the course of the last year or so, I can assure everyone that it doesn't take all that much training to get the 9-10 year old Webelos boys on-board with the Patrol Method and Boy Led concepts. I am presently doing WDL for 3 different Packs. One pack does not have a WDL, another has a WDL who doesn't do anything and the third WDL is trying but is struggling. My troop offered its services to provide a AOL program for the boys so they can cross over early and get out of their respective disastrous Webelos dens. Well, they have formed into dens/patrols of their own choosing, they have selected den/patrol leaders. As they prepare for their first outing, they have worked up a list of gear needed for each boy. They have worked out the cost, they have come up with a menu, and have been doing their AOL thing which runs remarkably like an introduction to the patrol method and boy led and paralleled in the scout and tenderfoot ranks. Go figure! So in fact when these boys cross over they will already have a head start on the boys who didn't take the AOL training. One can lay the foundation of boy led patrol method rather quickly and effectively if one assumes that these boys can be trusted to understand. By the time these boys are 12 years old they will have had 2 years experience with the model. If one takes on 11 year old boys, mix them into various patrols, let them observe and somehow through osmosis absorb the concepts, then when they get FC and are 13 years of age, then they can start on their formal NYLT training. It's rather strange that 11 year olds can fully understand GBB Leadership Training, be oriented to boy led, patrol method and have two years of leadership experience that by the time they reach eligibility for NYLT they are finding that by attending, it is (in their words) "a waste of time." There are two goals running simultaneously for the NSP in my troops, 1) First Class rank and 2) a functional patrol. I find the boys get to functional patrol before they get to First Class rank.... I have heard that many of the boys in this group of Webelos will have their parents check off their advancement and progress into other troops in the area. That's fine with me. Those boys got their citizenship discussion with a teacher or maybe some community leader. My boys got a visit from a state senator. Sometimes quality does pay off in the long run.

In a "Free Market" how can one impose morality to it without voiding the whole idea of Free? Once one adds restrictive morality and ethics, it is no longer a free market. If left truly free, the worker would be free to choose any employer he/she wishes. If they don't think the wage is appropriate, moral or ethical, they are free to choose another employer. If the employer feels the value of the employee worth it, he/she will pay a wage to keep them. Otherwise if the employer feels they are not getting what they're paying for why should they be forced to accept poorer quality at a higher price. It's kinda like being forced to buy medical services at governmental fee rates irregardless of whether that service is of any value or not. In a free market people ought to be able to get what they paid for, otherwise the system is not open and free, it's mandated and restricted. All of this Free Market discussion is of course based on the idea that free market means "open market , not free in as a market where one doesn't have to pay for it, get walk up and take it for nothing. or the taking as many in our society seem to define it. Somehow I seem to get a nagging feeling that such definition is paramount to organized theft from those who provide valuable goods and services. Where's the ethics and morality in that?

...because the warm fuzzy feeling one gets from thinking they are properly monitoring others' behavior out-ranks the issue of safety.

If economic structures keep pulling/driving to the median, how will it ever progress? Shouldn't the economy be focused on that which moves it forward towards an improvement for all rather than the average for all?

@@TAHAWK and @@Krampus One must also remember that there are troops out there that use the "Patrol Method" where the PL's are assigned by the SM, the patrol members are dictated by the SM nd these patrols are assigned by the SM & staff as to who cleans the latrines, who cooks the troop meals, who does the campfire, etc. An ASM advisor is assigned to make sure they are guided and mentored into compliance of their duties. The SPL of these troops is, if not the SM's son, at least one of the sons of an ASM. Now one has the "Patrol Method" in place, every boy is assigned a PL and a patrol and given a patch and having been given their directives, they are to "lead" their patrol in whatever is mentored by the SM. The SPL, will report back to the adults whether or not the work has been completed. And there you have it, the perfect Boy Led, Patrol Method troop! And that, my dear friends is exactly what my first troop was all about and the SM was Silver Beaver as were two of the ASM's and this troop went every year to summer camp and either Sea Base, Philmont or Northern Tier. Of course the SM assigned ad hoc patrols at Camporees guaranteed a high number of blue ribbons at the patrol competitions and accolades from the SE on down. This was the model troop that all other troops were encouraged to emulate. The SM's oldest son's picture hangs prominently in the Council Office. It's the only picture hung. And yes, I'm a bit touchy about the subject of Boy Led, Patrol Method.