Gunny2862

Are college students adults? From the midsection of the country where we are often accused of being behind the times... I still hold doors open and thank those who do it for me, but, I am equally as likely to be castigated(occ. at length) by a female for holding the door for her as to be either shoved past/ignored/or thanked. I try not to categorize the ruder ones as radical feminists but rather just as rude people. On the hat issue, I would much rather be approached and informed that I was possibly not aware of the practices of the house of faith I was in than to be allowed to continue to offend those whose practices I was violating. Especially since continuing to violate them reflects poorly on both myself and my Troop and the BSA - and since I don't know, makes it improbable that I would correct the Scouts behavior by informing the SPL. While informing someone else of a social gaffe it is just as important to have good manners as at any other time. The approach you take could yield wildly different results even if the person you were informing of the gaffe was clearly wrong. Naval(and Marine Corps) traditions preclude the wearing of hats indoors unless one is under arms(carrying a weapon and/or in the performance of one's duties). The Army both wears hats and salutes indoors. I'm not sure about the Air Force - I think they follow the Army traditions in this area.

Joni4TA, as a SM who has less than a career year in Scouting. I can really only tell you one thing... and you probably already know it. When you look at the issues (leadership opportunities) in your Troop it's overwhelming. Like an Elephant on your dinner plate. If you want to make it better, you have to work on one thing at a time.(Eat the Elephant one bite at a time) Take the Training the boys issue. I inherited the SM position in the middle of an election cycle - I skipped training for that cycle of boys (wrong maybe but I had too many fish to fry and worked on another batch) Look at each portion of the program. Break it down into smaller, fixable problems. Then fix them one at a time, e.g. volunteer to hold the JLT yourself - that will give the boys a picture of what they need to be doing - and enlist them into helping you fix the other issues. I have views about how things should be - they aren't necessarily the way Scouting would have them be. But I'm learning and in my case trying to expect a little bit less of them(the Scouts) in order to not have added requirements to the Scouting syllabus. On the other hand, I'm also trying to raise the bars in areas where we are either deficient or extremely minimal - like uniforming for example. But I really don't get it when adults cheat the system or intentionally lower the bar below the minimums spelled out in the program. Get the parents to training too, I know that sounds impossible when the Direct Contact leaders across BSA are only "Trained" at a 38% rate but many parents truly DON'T understand what we are trying to do. And the online training can really help in this portion of the problems you see. So, grab a fork, and eat that elephant one bite at a time.

And remember that the ultra-light crowd has the not only the idea that things should be as light as possible but that you shouldn't carry things you won't use/don't need. The key is that everything should have a purpose and if possible more than one. For instance if you are an ultra light packer, then you would be wearing/or under everything you brought when you go to sleep, except for the (nearly - I DO carry extra socks)empty pack, which might be your pillow or a pad under your feet. I've worn my rain jacket and trousers over my day wear instead of packing a sleeping bag before, although for this I did carry a 3/4 length pad and put my pack under my feet. A tarp or lean-to is an acceptable substitute for a tent if you know how to rig it under MOST conditions, if you even need it. Personally I DO carry at least a tarp, in case things go a little south(warmer/drier for sleeping, material for stretcher, cut and bind over wound covering to keep "Backcountry clean", etc). When loading up, ask yourself if what you are about to carry is a comfort item or a necessity. For an overnighter or even a two night trip extra batteries are dead weight - just mark the old set put them aside and put a fresh set in. Pumping and sterilizing water is a WHOLE lot lighter than packing the last days water the first day. It's amazing to me what boys who don't know will bring, even after classes on what and how to pack. Last time we had a boy show up for a fifteen-miler(by map) turned into 18 miles, with a FULL expedition pack, a carry bag and his pillow(full size) strapped to it. Needless to say, we had a special repacking session - went from over 70 lbs w/o crew gear down to about 38lbs crew gear included. You may spend the money but generally you don't have to. Think lighter first - then spend the money after you've done what you can by eliminating the things you don't really need - most of the time you won't miss what you left behind and you can focus on spending your money where it will then do the most good.

I've got mixed feelings here. I'd just as soon see a young Eagle - who had done the work. But understood that now the work that was invested in him should begin to pay off in terms of his helping to lead/run the troop. Not run off, because he had his Eagle. OTH, I'm seeing older Eagles hitting the bricks the instant they get the Chicken, where's their input back into the program? In my own little weird world, Scouters would really just be repositories of institutional memory, program Quality Control(SM), the requisite adult association and the final safety check for the Scouts. Eagles would gain additional leadership skills as "real" JASM's(actually teaching skills and modeling the programs final product) and ASM's would primarily enhance the Eagle's leadership skills.

Well, since an adult has to sign off on the requirements - we take the time to look at the page and point out what is coming up campoutwise to help them get the next requirement and to point out things they can read and practice on their own to keep advancing in between campouts. While doing this it is relatively easy to see when a boy has completed his requirements for a rank and send him to the SM to set up a conference. Other than a Scout who just isn't getting the character part of the program, and who should be getting more adult association therefore, I can't imagine why one would artificially slow advancements on purpose.

ScoutNut, Oak Tree and emb021, thanks for the history and then finishing it off Barney style. (you remember Barney, right?)(Although, frankly, purple dinosaurs freak me out.) I think I have it straight now, Thanks!

You can be a Marine without any expressed faith in a deity of some sort - you can't be a Scout w/o this requirement. You can be a Scout/Scouter without passing a USMC PFT - you can't be a Marine w/o this requirement. For instance and flipping the question, I'm not seeing a lot of Scouters who could not meet the minimum PFT requirements below, some, but not the majority - frankly not even the age adjusted minimum requirements. So it's a good thing for the current BSA Scouters that those Marine PFT requirements(or height/weight standards for that matter) aren't levied for Scouters to be Scouters. I can still pass a PFT but the meeting the height/weight standard is gone. I might point out that the PFT information posted above might get you in. And reflects only female activities. But there is no way you're staying in doing those MINIMUMS. And the USMC PFT (Physical Fitness Test) For men, requires: 3 Pullups, 40 situps, and a less than 28 minute run time for 3 miles. Also as as minimums for 17- to 26 year olds. Plus an additional 40 points as described below. Each one of these scores is the minimum for the category and is not enough to pass on their own, you must garner for the 17-26 age group an additional 40 points by any combination of: 5 points per pullup, 1 point per situp/crunch, 1 point per additional second less of run time. The additional points brings one to a score of 135. The bottom of the 3rd class PFT rating, 175 (another 40 points) moves one into the 2nd class range, and 50 more points puts one in the bottom of the 1st class range at 225. 300 is the maximum score(20 pullups 80 situps(old test) and an 18 minute run for those who are interested). You will not (in ALL probability) be able to advance without significantly improving those minimum scores into at least the middle of the 2nd class range. Promotions are competitive in the Corps and and those who have 1st class scores will almost always advance faster than lesser qualified Marines. And without rank advancement it is extremely likely that you will not be retained in service. The higher the rank the less likely for enlisted Marines. Now as to being a Marine as a qualification to be a Boy Scout - are we talking about a boy who became a Marine or Marine who wants to be a Scouter. And either way it comes down to if the BSA puts in a requirement the Marines don't then it should be pretty easy to recognize that that one requirement could keep one out.

Thanks John, so far we've avoided any weather related impacts. Being a smaller troop we tend to only have a few boys ready for a BoR at any given time, then we try to drag in every available person who can sit a BoR in order to spread out the exposure to any given interviewer for any given boy. And will rotate the boy among two or three BoR boards if he advances more than one rank at a time - this is most likely to occur, for us, at camp or after a non-Philmont HA trip. While this does give him some repeated questions, most of our older Scouters are cognizant of what's going on and quite frankly ask what I consider to be some oddball questions anyway - "But, Scoutmaster I was just trying to make the boy think." A plus to this is that they do tend advance together, a negative is that a boy will not usually get an independently scheduled BoR to fit his schedule, at least for the T-2-1 ranks. I agree multiple BoR's can be grueling for us, i can only imagine it must be exhausting for any Scout who puts himself in that boat. I've not yet seen three ranks at once but two is pretty common.

Not necessarily ON topic but I think still affiliated, If I need to spin this please tell me, thanks. So, Venture patrols are not Venturers. Varsity patrols are no longer patrols that are associated with Troops but used to be analogous to Venture patrols. Varsity Patrols are now more analogous to Venturing Teams/Crews but restricted to fewer activities. Neither Venture or Varsity Patrols are coed but Venturing Crews/Teams may be. Venture Patrols are the only one of these entities that are associated with a Troop - non-LDS(don't want to get confused with any LDS provisions that further convolute the issue yet.) Am I close yet?

Pappy, I will confess that currently, regardless of an example of wearing the uniform and what ever poor attempts I have made in trying to get the boys to wear the "Full" uniform that, we are not a uniformed troop.(I know, I know, but "Class A" shirts and Jeans or Troop T-shirt and Jeans or shorts - at least they all wear the same thing at the same time) Would I like to be? YES. Is it something I have control of - (realistically)NO. On the other hand, our upcoming Arrow of Light crossovers chose us because the boys run the meetings, build the calendars, and we GO CAMPING. Which other Troops around us are not doing. I'll take it - at least for now. Elephant - one bite at a time, one bite at a time.

Thanks, PD! Scoutnut, I really am confused 'cause everytime I ask I get a different set of answers about Varsity and/or Venturing. I'll go look at the split forum and see what's going on there.

Uh, I AGAIN, may not have the full context here, but aren't Varsity patrols part of the Troop and what SM's who are trying to keep the older boys around should be starting? Preferably with additional adults to help the Varsity patrol. And Venturing crews then either coed or not but not necessarily associated with the Troop? Or am I confused still?

Source, Then keep on keeping on, as they said in the 70's. I was just expanding a little bit on Lisabobs question. I'm glad you had a good result on this one!(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

In fairness, I don't think many of our Scout parents speak French. But I do sometimes wish they would let me know in advance if they or their Scouts were coming along or not on any given activity.

Without any details, I would want to know if this was a perception issue or an actually inappropriate action. I would probably think about approaching the SM first. Context matters if it's a perception issue. That said, a butt pinch - inappropriate. A full contact hug - not going there unless they've lost a parent, or were awarded their Eagle, or got heir first pin (or the first time they went three periods w/o getting pinned)in a club or school match. The football player(light)chuck on the back of the head - much safer than the same scenario butt slap(not going there either) for a manly recognition of a job well done, but still easily seen as inappropriate. Hand on shoulder to hold attention, possibly congratulate or reprove - not inappropriate in MOST instances. But there are those who see ANY physical contact between a Scouter and a Scout as inappropriate. I see it as safer not to be touching Scouts but not necessarily always inappropriate, especially if the requisite other adults are present. The no physical contact at all scenario keeps the adults out of even "no contact" games like basketball. Although it is readily admitted an adult looking for an excuse could hardly find a better venue than a game of shirts v. skins. But as Lisabob said, (and after reviewing your posts)you do seem to have issues with this SM. My question is are you dissatisfied and witch hunting(consciously or not) or are there REAL problems here? For me, the fact is that I will occasionally and in the right circumstances and occasions(usually open venues with plenty of people, including the non-scouts parents around) hug my son's non-scouting friends, half-hug congratulate teammates, play outdoor sports with his non-scout friends when I will not regularly do the same activities with his friends who are scouts, whether or not they are a part of our troop, just because of the perception issues. Of course when coaching/teaching the youth wrestling club members this puts me in the situation of avoiding my and the other known scouts while working with the other boys. Is it discrimination, sure, ya, you bet, but it does help cover my butt from those who want to see inappropriate touching when a SM touches any Scout for any reason. (WOW, the 30 minutes between when I read and when I finally posted made a world of difference in context.)(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

Way to go EKMiranda! Stay strong, be positive!, be prepared. And remember, really, it's only an hour a week. per boy.

In the interest of truth, full disclosure and to show I do have a tenuous grip on reality. As a Scouter who has less than a year of career scouting, even though I'm our SM, I'm not going to be able to prescribe how our other Adult members/ Committee Members - mostly Eagles with 25-40, some with 50+ career years of Scouting experience and former SM's or ASM's do business unless the BSA rules clearly prescribe in detail the minutiae of any given event. Especially a BoR. And if the boy sets himself up for three in a row - well then he'll advise the next one to do it T-2-1 rather than T21. And so, they do check the performance and quality of the program by testing a boys knowledge during a BoR - but that portion is not to to pass/fail the Scout but rather to evaluate ME and my delivery of the program. Which I think IS part of the BoR, but I could be wrong.

Okay, so YOU think Scouting is uncool? Regional differences count. Your perceptions count. The Boys perceptions count. But, 1)I'm not changing to baggy Jeans with my underwear showing, large necklaces (bling), Hoodies, a skullcap, walking like I've broken a hip and totin' my nine to fit in. Although that would be kuul wouldn't it? (Maybe I'll try it at church first and see if it flies? Could be a whole new look for me.) 2)Around these here parts our Scouts will actually wear Scout shirts, t-shirts, etc. to school - not things one does if the activity is uncool. Especially in Junior high and as Freshman and Sophomores, because Status counts. However for BSA national as a BUSINESS - I could see the additional openings for new members this model would address - BUT it would kill their BRANDING and what many of us see as the reason why we do BSA and not 4H or Royal Rangers or whatever else is out there.

Bob White said, "While it is possible for this situation to happen it really shouldn't. A unit with a PLANNED program can see that the scout completes the recognistions in order even though he is able to complete work in any of the three lower ranks." I'm not sure what you mean by this? Are you saying that even if he completes the work out of sequence he's not awarded the rank except in order, if so, I agree. If not, At the possibility of being accused of having an unplanned program - oh well. The boy drives the accomplishments he chooses to complete all of the way through the 1st three ranks - not us. (Note:For the discussion below when I say "Tenderfoot SM conference" I mean the one we think of as the "job well done for this rank/goal setting conference for the next" conference that is usually done just before the appropriate BoR. It does not preclude other SM conferences to see whats going on.) While not awarded this way - it is entirely possible for a boy to finish the requirements in what we would think of in reverse order (1st class requirements, 2nd class requirements and Tenderfoot)- with the possible exception of the SM conferences for 1st and 2nd when he hasn't had a Tenderfoot SM conference yet - also I'm not doing a first class or second class SM conference for a Scout who hasn't had a SM conference for Tenderfoot. I'll probably have a conference just to see what he's thinking. But around here my "problem" is that they won't take advantage of opportunities to do requirements from 1st class while a tenderfoot or second class even if we aren't doing an activity that would make it easy for them to advance in that requirement for six months to a year from now. Oh, rats, I DO have a planned program. But if they (almost - no SM conference)complete in reverse(or any other) order they are still going to be awarded and recognized in order - but I don't have any problem recognizing and awarding all three ranks on the same night if put in this situation. Now for us normally, we could have several weeks to do separate BORs probably with SM conferences either in between or doing a marathon SM conference too- but put in the CoH is next week bind I would either have one long grueling BOR or three separate ones addressing each change and in the case of the three separate ones avoid the "What did you learn during this period of time?" question either after the first one or until the third one. For me it's an issue of the rules say they can do it that way and nothing says we should slow down advancement for those ranks. On the issue of courtesy to the Board members, what is the difference between seeing the same boy three time for three advancements or seeing three boys for one advancement each? If they know they'll be doing x number of boards then what does it matter if they are seeing the same boy three times or not? And while I agree that advancing three ranks at(almost)once is not ideal - the program is set up to allow it.

Welcome Carl, join us at the campfire!

I would say to take a little time and OODA (or do at least one Boyd cycle on yourself,they're the same thing, look it up) on yourself. Orient: youself about who you are and what you want to do. Do you still have something to give and can you do it without looking for the political nightmare? Observe: yourself and the Troops in your area - do they need/want your input? Decide: on a course of action if/when your ready and if it is to go back to Scouting, Great, if not, Great you gave of your time in this venue, find another area and give there but remember to proud of the Scouts you helped! Act: get back into the game, whether it's the grand game or another venue I'm sure you have qualites people need in organizations that interest you! Good luck!

You've got an in-house leader, a quality control check, a way to find out what the boys are thinking, an insider. A Certified if not proven Leader - why would you let him get away especially if he's asking for something to do?!!! Start a Varsity patrol, Let him teach 1st years, Let your Committee know this is part and parcel of the program. 16 year olds who stay active have the potential to notch your quality up, if you give them the responsibility they ask for! I'd love it if the 16 year old Eagles I inherited showed up for more than just the HA and/or OA outings and participated in the rest of the program! I hope the boys I shepherd thorough the program do better, and become like this one of yours. I will also be looking for answers to your questions esp., those regarding what others have done to keep them involved.

Our CO invites us to serve as ushers and to do a display during the coffee/donut time between services. It is good for our retention of the CO for the "current" pastor (an ongoing issue with the CO) to see the numbers of Scouts who attend his church but no longer wear the uniform. The 70 + crowd don't seem to enjoy sleeping on the ground for some reason. We also get some youth recruitment out of it.

To the original question, I don't think it should be generally accepted. After 21 years of service in the Marine Corps I was continually amazed at certain people who seemed not to (literally)comprehend simple directions that did not include profane insertions as verbs, adverbs, nouns, even as past participles. But they weren't boys or Boy Scouts. However , I attempted to remain above the fray as much as it was possible to do and still accomplish the full complement of my assigned missions. So when I did delve into my profane bag of tricks - everyone noticed and responded with surety and alacrity. I also wasn't and am not a screamer/yeller - if you use it all of the time then you can't ramp it up a notch that way either. A change in tone and a steely look can accomplish wonders if it's not overused too. I don't foresee any normal situation where the same tactics should come into play, but IF we are way back in the back country and things are going south quickly(in the lowest point of a draw and the weather radio says flash flooding in the area has been sighted)and some degree of additional motivation is required to help ensure the physical safety of all involved then I don't think that I would rule it out after the change in tone and then the elevated voice levels didn't get the job done. It would certainly be better than actually punting someone in the posterior to get the message across that lagging was not going to be acceptable in the given circumstance(getting out of the draw). But at regular campouts and/or meetings - I don't think it should be necessary. A meeting and additional PLC or adult intervention should do anything that needs to occur in these situations. So for me it's not a black and white issue, is it better if avoided, YES. Should it ever be directed at the denigration of a person or their character, NO. Should an adult leader ever lose their composure? NO. Especially if treading into areas where one is employing a tool like raising their voice to a yelling/shouting modality or the use of profanity. It would be like losing your composure while trying to do First Aid - likely to cause more problems than you are fixing.

Two things, 1) Under Missouri law, I would be required to report to my DE or SE (the organization I represent) and at that point the ball is in their court. I have done my due diligence and it is up to the SE or DE to report to the Div of Childrens Services, THEY are REQUIRED to report to the DCS AT THAT POINT, not I. The important part of this discussion is that each state may have different requirements..., as I am reading this even though they were all developed to facilitate reporting under a Federal statute YOU need to spend 10 minutes in YOUR states DCS(or equivalent agencies) website and get the straight poop to protect your scouts - as well as yourself. 2) I believe it would be more rude to allow a person, who did not perhaps realize they were being rude, to continue to be rude without giving them a chance to moderate their own behavior. The it's rude to point out my rude behavior argument smacks of a sentiment I am hearing more and more often among the more immature college students I deal with "It's who I am, deal with it." Which sounds like rudeness wrapped in an attempt at an excuse to me. A Scout is Helpful, Courteous, Kind. Which response above fits?