Gunny2862

Major Dad and Venividi, concur.

LongHaul, No mention of maturity is made, true. But the older boy is old enough and will have his AoL. Without meeting him and judging for yourself are you saying to turn him down? The younger boy is not eligible so his maturity doesn't come in to the discussion.

Perhaps if enough help were available, and I was as perfect as the book. Our program might run as Bobwhite suggests. But we take everyone on MOST outings. And do skill level appropriate tasks for everyone on every outing. Even on the HA trips some Scouts are more prepared than others. (We try to see our Scouts as people) We do have a couple of specific outings for only the 14 and older or first class and up set. But with only 21 Scouts, running the three tiered program in the way suggested only puts us at danger of losing all of the boys. Because they want to be together in the way we have it running. What we do sounds very much like what Eamonn is saying. The book is great, but it doesn't fit every program.

BobWhite we've gone back and forth and said the same things over and over. You either aren't getting what I'm saying or don't want to. I'd say you win, but In my world you need to have gotten what I have repeatedly and in different forms tried to convey to you, and dismissed it for a reason, to have won. I do get that you are saying that What the parents do does not affect what you expect from the Scout in the program and what your program responsibilities are. I don't disagree with these two very specific points. I'd recap what I've been trying to get across again but feel you aren't interested and just want to argue. I leave you the field. YIS

BobWhite, of course the parent is the parent. Of course they can and do whatever they want - within legal boundaries - with THEIR children. For the nth time, no changing the program requiring more or less of them. But phrased differently for the nth time also - don't you think the way the parent deals with THEIR child influences who the child is? And thus the pesonality of the Scout that I as Scoutmaster deal with. Or do you think Scouts are all the same and so you talk to each one exactly the same way? It comes across ( to me ) as though you have a script and only say exactly the same thing to every Scout. I really have better things to do than semantically parse this discussion, however I also read your posts as rather demeaning and condecending (bad connotation) and am loath to drop it under those terms. I really think we probably agree more than disagree but feel you are being overly pedantic and possibly not reading my posts. if there is some excess bolding text formatting isn't translating from my phone. I only intended to bold "reading".(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

The most important thing to remember about the process is whoever complains makes the next pot. If my ASM is along I don't even bring grounds, I just make sure we've got enough water. Don't need the horseshoe to float for me, just need the spoon to stand up.

I hate writing it again but it didn't go last time. BobWhite, it may not be what you mean but I am hearing you say that you deliver the program to a collection of bodies and by extension that you don't try to get to know them as individuals. I say again that if the DL, or anything else, is used as a Carrot or a Stick it should be based on effort vice achievement AND with the aptitude and personality of the Scout in mind. I also try to get to know my Scouts and what is going on in their lives so I can propely counsel them in informal sessions as well as at SM Conferences. AND that doesn't mean the requirements get altered but maybe my method of dealing with each Scout does.

Steve, believe it or not some Webelos are on the net. And when they are getting close to Crossover time they try to find out more about Boy Scouts. Your videos are showing them that the Boy Scouts aren't as intimidating and are more fun than they thought before seeing them. Some of my new scouts were going to drop out rather than cross into the "big, scary" Boy Scout world. But the new point of view you gave them convinced them to try it.

But, that really is the point. We aren't really discussing the Scouts motivation. We're really discussing parental guidance towards the Scout. And how we see it often going awry with the focus on an achievement rather than on effort. If my son never wins another wrestling match, I'll still be proud of him if he's working every second he's on the mat. Don't get me wrong, I love winning, but where does he learn more, with half effort victories over unprepared opponents or in struggles where every ounce of prior preparation weighs into the outcome? Interesting aside, outside of Texas I've never heard of a Driver's license being tied to lettering in football.

It's me, I think you can see from my post above that I agree that, "Not every campout can or should be so easy that a new Webelos can go on it right out of the Blue and Gold." I don't know why you would think that would get you in trouble.

Moderator Can we delete posts 3,4 and 5 in this thread,please? They seem to be killing the thread. I'd really like some input on this...

Having done some research, you are in a tough spot. But not as bad as some. Consider if YOU are Scouting for you - nothing wrong with that, or to deliver the promise of Scouting to the boys, nothing wrong with that either. In the best of all worlds we get fulfillment in delivering Scouting to the boys. The questions I have are: Does your son still want to go? Is the child you are having problems with still around? Is there another Troop you could do this "no stress - no more achievement required" scouting with? (I think you have indicated that your Scout has his Eagle -Congratulations) Finally, do you have to be with Scouts to do the things you want to do, and go where you want to go? When you answer these questions, you should be able to tell what you want to do. Good luck! YIS

Wow, a lot of history and some great responses. My take, We do an annual planning conference in December for the upcoming year, it is also the soonest we can pseudo-reliably have a calendar for Schools, Churches, Universities, even our own Council that impact when and where and what we might want to do. This year due to lots of weather challenges, new committee members, and other issues we didn't put the calendar to the printer until the 3rd week of February. Although we were operating off of it in the interim with item by item approval of the committee. I'll take any prospective Scout, who meets the requirements to join, at any time. But, the past has shown in our area that a cadre approach results in boys who stick around and encourage each other until they either get their Eagle or age out. So we tend to get them Crossed-over coincidentally with the February Blue & Golds. For us, I'd rather do simpler but fun (all included) spring and summer camp outs and be ready to take everyone to summer camp and (all included) more challenging fall and winter camps. Around here I'd much rather Backpack in the Fall or Spring than in the Summer and throwing a Scout or Tenderfoot into our Backpacking program with no prior experience would just be cruel due to terrain and the fact that we have gotten very, very, few new Scouts who have ever carried anything other than a bookbag. Those Spring and summer hikes make a world of difference in getting the new scouts ready. Our High Adventure(HA) campout/trip program is not appropriate for Scouts who haven't mastered T-2-1 skills, and isn't the venue in which these skills should be learned. Although for scheduling purposes(for parental involvement/funding/and SM vacation time) the big HA trip does tend to most often fall in the summer.(and exclude all but 1st class and above or 14 and older Scouts) And yes, it does tend to make things cyclic but so far we have avoided New Scout Patrols and doing all T-2-1 work at summer camp. But it also allows the older Scouts to know that they have easier times of the year to do merit badge work without being overburdened with our program and to participate in school activities, which rather than competing in an either/or fashion that we would probably lose allows them to do both in win-win fashion. SO, it tends not to be not so much a throttling back for us but a natural cycle with more than one level of Scouting occurring concurrently. If we got new Scouts in September, their first campouts might be cold weather campouts with no opportunity to learn little lessons that the things we tell them to bring they actually need and the things they thought were more important really weren't. I think it is easier the way it is.

Or he transfers...

Bullying might work if he had a hold on them. But we are volunteers - we need to team build not crush volunteer spirit. It might be good to remind him that he can't punish anyone into doing their job. It may be that they NEED the training and might start performing if they were all trained. Or if past members could be asked back to mentor the current board. Or both. Sorry for HWMBO's issues. Take care of her and yourself.

Remember that people, and Scouts and Scouters are people too, will always eventually let you down. Eagle is and should remain an idyllic accomplishment. It is fairly rare that it is attained and will probably remain true that anyone you know who has attained it will be flawed. I'm no Eagle but I am certainly a flawed being. But as the Monty Python would say "I'm getting better." - Bring out your Dead sketch. Eagle, and Life after it is a Journey.

BobWhite, it took me while to conjure this up and I may not still be fully cogent about it so bear with me. For me, my concern is that the motivation of the Scout by the parents affects the Scout as a whole being, which, as we move into the Macro purposes of Scouting is who we are really dealing with. Not a parent driven, hopeful Eagle candidate. The Parents actions are NOT anything I regulate, but If asked if I would do such and such a thing, then it behooves me to have an answer and a rationale to back it up. Which is part of the reason I lurk here so much. Which, I think is where this thread started.

LongHaul, I agree completely with one aspect of what you are saying. That it is about the boys - but would that also mean that because a boy(the younger)(or his parents) wants an award he hasn't met the requirements for, that it should be given to him? But, in this case it is the parents we must convince. If, for no other reason than that, their signatures are required on the application for the older boy. So ultimately we will see that one or more of the following is true: the older boy is held back, the younger boy wronged with an unearned advancement, the boys join in appropriate sequence, or the parents make such an issue out of what should be a non-issue that the boys don't want to be in the program, are in it without parental support, or finally, the parents figure it out and get on board with the real program and drop the "perceived" agenda of special treatment.

FScouter, I am sorry for your loss. I just lost my Dad, this year, too. Hope you are doing okay.

Do your Scout Parents really know....everything that is required for their sons to have a program? Is your committee fully staffed? Are they trained? Do you have enough Assistant Scoutmasters? Is there enough parental involvement for outings? If so, how did you get it to be that way? If not, have you communicated your needs? Do you know what your needs are? I have a Energizer Bunny CC, even so, he can't do it all and gets the help he needs. He is also our former SM and knows what I need from his POV when he wore the hat. Our Committee seems to get things done but isn't and as far as I know has never been fully staffed. I know I still complete some portions of committee member functions. We occasionally are wondering if we have enough seatbelts (trying to get out of the city) for outings. I have one untrained ASM(1 child in program), the trained CC, and another trained Former SM that we work through for the adults on 90% of outings. Our Cubmaster(2 children in our program, one still in Cubs) who is a Scout parent also comes along sometimes in the place of one of the others. 21 Scouts registered. Only very rarely are we graced on an outing by a parent not mentioned above. Am I working with what most of you are or is my situation significantly better or worse than the norm? Constructive remarks only please. Derogoteurs may find the issues and politics forum, Thank you.

You shameless self-promoter! How do you sleep at night?! Actually I'm sleeping easier! - YOUR efforts are helping MY recruiting! THANKS! Good job Steve!

Preach it! Can I get a witness?!

And I yet again thank my lucky stars for the excellent(but still shorthanded) Committee I have been blessed with who do allow me some time with the Scouts - to do the things I am supposed to be doing.

Concur with Pack 212's most recent post. But we like to get the boys that way so they join with a group of peers. See my most recent post above. We (our Troop) will take new Scouts at anytime throughout the year but recognize that Scouts who come in as a group are traditionally more successful in the program than those who join alone.

It's not fair to the older boy. But it is his parents who are being unfair by asking him to. I don't have any say in whether or not the younger boy gets his AOL early, but I wouldn't join a boy who didn't meet the minimum requirements for Boy Scouting. It defeats the program AND puts me in an awkward legal position if he were hurt before he met the requirement. I try really hard to enforce Boy Scouting requirements for advancement, I would hate to see parents who expected shortcuts to be reinforced in their expectations as their last experience in Cub Scouting. If it is the parents goal for the boys to lockstep together through Scouting then they are probably in it for the wrong reasons anyway. And will probably find it won't work out they way they expect it to. It's about character, not about the Eagle rank.