fred8033

Cheap summary from my local area ... I'm amazed how few units / CORs / COs are taking this seriously. Maybe it's not hit their visibility yet. My meeting with the CO executive was ... Do you want to oversee the leadership selection and unit program? Answer no. Do you see scouting as core to something the church elders want to oversee? Answer no. How is scouting perceived in the church? Answer - It's a nice community organization supporting youth that we want to support as a church. BUT, it's not aligned with the church goals as the church alre

Even without lawyer comments ... which I enjoy as much as the next guy ... it's easy reasoning. ... My money won't go to help current scouting. Let the past fund the past. I'll save my money to help the future. ... Just like Eagle projects. It's easy to raise funds to enable a future project. It's almost impossible to raise funds to pay the debts of a past project. I'm wondering if it's materially affecting the bottom line significantly. I was not sure how much of BSA's national budget reflects "dues" versus "donations".

Not sure if this goes in the CH11 thread or other ... trying my best ... Do the negative numbers reflect shutting down of donations? BSA has always been a donation / gift heavy organization. Few individuals and organizations want to donate during a bankruptcy. I'd imagine a bankruptcy completely dries up that funding source.

@Mattr and all the other moderators ... Thank you for all you do. .... I'd say thank you also in the CH11 thread, but it's not strictly about the legalese of the case.

Some read all, but I've repeatedly had to give up reading 5+ pages or 10+ or 20+ of a 100+ page thread. Heck, the bankruptcy threadS are well over 600 pages now. .... but then again, it's a huge topic. I'm sure I've missed lots. I know I've asked for an updated summary at times.

Wages are yet another whole thread. I'm amazed, but then again it's a big organization.

The case I refer to was one I had in training. (?? 10/15 years ago??) Search for Karl in this document. He refers to his 500 incidents. That video was extremely eye opening. I was BSA used that training to open people's eyes. https://www.archmil.org/ArchMil/Resources/SAFE/3FacilitatorManual.pdf I was questioning the statistics. It seems different statistics apply to different categories. I'm not sure which statistics can be used when as applicable to this case. Perhaps, the average for BSA is 5 or 10 per abuser. I'm just not sure. ... It's why I say CSA statisti

Not sure ChildUSA is fair about this ... Example: Calling out old communal spaces like showers, but ignoring that schools required nude showers for all youth as part of gym class and that all YMCAs then ... and still do ... have communal shower spaces. In my twenty years of scouts, no adult has been in a communal shower with youth. In the last five years, showers have changed from communal to individual. Example: Inferring church basements are some dark potentially dangerous place, but ignoring such spaces exist everywhere. Ever been to a shopping mall. My youth was littered w

We have no cause for direct attacks. I agree with you that we need to tread carefully as we are all very passionate. ON THE OTHER HAND ... Fair topics for this channel does include societal guilt and shared responsibility when others introduce their anger / assertions about BSA's past / current. When making those statements, you can't then switch back to say this channel is only about the bankruptcy. THERE IS A BALANCE. BSA has legal responsibilities by how the law works. BSA has moral responsibility too. It happened under their watch. The problem is when the debate

Understood. I meant the other bigger bankruptcy. Even for the LC contributions, there are huge questions. Main one with LC contributions per US trustee, is it even legal to provide future protection to independent organizations that are not going thru bankruptcy. If it's found not providing future protection, I assume the LCs will hold back their contributions.

I'm still baffled by so many fundamental questions that I'm not sure how this continues.

Interesting that form still has references to charter organization and charter org representative. Is that a council signature or are they looking for a "Parents Of" organization.

I don't believe that's true at all. BSA has been stuck walking a fine course between a long list of societal changes. Though I could see a more secular future, I doubt anyone "wanted" that other than a few historical forum posters.

Makes sense. The relationships were always very loose. Why misrepresent it with something formal that is written? Most charter orgs were just being supportive of the community. They can still do that without signing an agreement (aka a contract).

What is Kosnoff's reasoning to expect a chapter 7? Lack of good faith negotiations? The waters are so muddied by all sides on this case and with laws changing even during this process that I'd find it hard to believe a successful "lack of good faith" could be found. (but then again, I'm no lawyer) ... ... Bad future financial picture? We've seen scouting successfully resurrected in England and other countries to great success. If BSA can get past the current bankruptcy and the bad press related (and covid), I'd believe a 110 year old non-profit could successfully continue to function.

Is "No coverage" before 1978 may not be a clear cut? 43 years ago. Insurance practices, policies and laws have changed. Loose agreements. BSA's communications with COs has always been pretty loose. Not really legal agreements and more like marketing agreements. Only now being interpreted as contracts. Self-insurance? I could see BSA having practiced self-insurance for CO liabilities. It was more a general statement about BSA being behind the CO and supporting the CO. "if it exceeds what you can cover, BSA will be there to help" ... Many companies still self-insu

People might not realize this. I cringe re-reading my old posts. I'm often doing current real work and revising these hobby posts. I cringe when I see typos. advise versus advice. argh.

"insurance plan for ALL churches" ... a leading one, but I did not think all. They don't represent "all". ... 134 of 485 diocese (arch and non-arch ... not sure on exact numbers ... just a quick search) ... I was thinking the archdiocese of Boston versus Denver might have different needs as they had very different member bases and incidents. The bigger decision factor might be the individual cash reserves of the individual diocese / archdiocese / parishes.

@ThenNow ... Is it a real "grouping" for Catholic / Methodist Ad Hoc Committees? The ad-hoc committees can have one law firm, but the units are chartered by the individual parishes and arch-diocese. I thought I saw the arch-diocese had their own lawyers and had often filed their own claims / case filings in this bankruptcy. So, ad-hoc committees might help with consistent advise to their members, but it's still just advice. Individual members might have different needs / different views.

Good point. Many organizations allow outside groups to use their facilities. This may be a situation where the CO is better off not signing anything. Even signing the facility use agreement then introduces questions of involvement / responsibility in potentially bad situations. As a former long term COR, I really have never seen any benefit to the CO to sign either of these documents. It was signed as good will and helping out the scouting unit. The CO never had a driving need for a signed agreement.

Limo services are nice shuttle busses. Sometimes econoliners with four rows of seats. Other times, similar to airport car rental shuttles. Never the traditional stretch cadilac. BUT ... it would be fun to show up in a stretch cadilac.

Even worse. "Equity" is a nebulous, obscuring, euphanism for questionable fairness. Nebulous ... If you directly ask, people will give you contradicting definitions. Further, people can't consistently apply it. Groups says schools need to teach the definition. .... hmmm ... maybe the issue is more than just lack of knowledge ... I learned equity as relating to ownership / expected value if liquidated. If you are paying a house morgage, how much equity do you have ten years in. If you are playing poker, what is your pot equity (average winnings). Equity relates to ownership.

Answers in-line....

Stop? A one sided request. Many ugly bad statements are being made about BSA. Without comparative metrics. It's wrong to take incidents and draw larger conclusions. BSA had at it's peak 5m+ members registered each year. Even with just a 20% turn over, that's well over a 100m members. Is the abuse rate high? low? I'm not sure. Then set in a context of times when such things were not commonly reported or processed. The BSA metric seems high because of BSA having the IVF files helped document and raise awareness. The question is what is the real incident rate. No one knows.

So ... is there now a whole new class of claimants who are now also time barred because they missed their state's open window? Is there a new set of class actions to be done against law firms for explicit fraud and intentional incompetence? Seems we should have law firms suing law firms for cash or suing investment houses that funded those law firms.