fred8033

The settlement trust resolving the mess would probably be the most efficient solution. Instead, we're in for years of proceedings. As for the future, ... if BSA can survive bankruptcy, it will have followers. The legal process can easily make anyone look like a smuck. BSA still has deep legacy that will help. Plus, the ideals still exist. It's a matter of being able to focus. PERVERSELY HUMOROUS COMMENT: This December our family received legal notice and a small amount of money from a bankruptcy trustee. We were surprised. The case started in 1923. Case was reopened in 2015. ... Still though. Wow. ... 98 years ... I've searched court records and ... if I pay money ... the 1923 (and on) court records would be scanned and brought online. ... It is enough money to buy a nice meal for two at a very nice restaurant. ... I really want to know ... what were the total legal fees for a 98 year old case?

I'm saying people leave because they are burnt out. A trigger is needed. I doubt G2SS is the trigger. It might receive a share of blame, but I doubt it's a trigger.

I don't buy it. Scouter's regularily burn out and blame it on other things. Their personal belief in scouting chains them to the program. It's almost like they are waiting for a reason to step away. The first time I saw it in scouting was when OA chapters merged. Expert and extremely committed scouters couldn't be flexible to work together and each wanted to be the advisor. So one walked. ... Reality is the person was burnt out by a big commitment and just needed a trigger to leave. I'm sure in many ways it was an absolutely relief and also a badge of victimhood to wear and a story to repeat. Times change. We can't expect the program and the rules from long ago. ... G2SS is not perfect. Many of the rules are hard to apply in nuanced sitautions. BUT, the key is learning how to apply and asking for advice and guidance. Also, providing feedback to get rules fixed. My posts were based on two very specific comments. #1 Infering we can play a G2SS game. Now, I'm a scouter. Now, I'm not. Then a few hours later, I'm a scouter again. #2 Similar, the comment that G2SS has rules that you don't really need to follow and that it's an ethical decision each scouter needs to make. ... We should not teach those examples.

Again ... I know we are all experienced scouters ... and I have deep respect for our commitment to the scouting program. I cringe. These should NOT be the words of a scouter. PERIOD. Our oaths mean something. Our promises mean something. Our character is on the line when we sign saying we will represent BSA and follow the program. I'm far from perfect, but I do try to measure my decisions based on G2SS guidance when it involes scouting youth. Ethical justification? We're not talking life and death situations. We're applying G2SS to daily life. No one is forcing you to be a registered BSA leader. Further, how do you draw your line? It's silly, but you can use similar justification to ignore other G2SS rules. Laser tag? Handguns? Full contact martial arts? Hazing? KEY COMMENT: I'm an old-school character guy with John Wayne as the type of hero I respect. He'd spit in your eye if you give him a rule he won't or can't follow. He'd have contempt for a man that makes a promise with the plan to break that promise. It's two faced. My eyes view it as cut and dry. Do your best to follow G2SS or don't be a registered leader. When you have trouble following the rules, pull in others (DE, council training or membership chair, etc) for guidance. I've had a few that fall in that category. I've talked with our council training and advancement chairs to make sure I'm applying a reasonable G2SS interpretation. Finally, playing the scouting vs non-scouting game is how a significant number of past abuse cases happened. Non-scouting events with scouting leaders and scouting youth. Again, my apologies. I know everyone is trying to do their best to raise their own kids; be a good leader; and, to give back to the community. I have a lot of respect for that.

I've dealt with similar, but chosen to follow G2SS as best I can. To be really, really honest ... and please forgive my response, but it is my view. I absolutely cringe hearing that comment. It is very dangerous and shows contempt for the Scout Law and contempt for the program that you've put your signature saying you will follow. Even tongue in cheek, it is absolutely NOT something we should say or do. It is absolutely a violation of G2SS. It is a bad example to set for our youth. I am really sad to hear a scout leader saying those words.

I've seen this too. The newly 18 year old that we have to tell that he can't share a tent with his long-time friend that he shared a tent with the month earlier. I'm not sure the right rule, but there needs to be an exception based on age and position. Perhaps ... Age needs to be within two years. Same as the existing G2SS rule for youth. Perhaps a new position of a young adult mentor that is not direct leadership role. The challenge is USA has some hard rules triggered by turning 18. Someone more knowledgable would need to navigate that issue.

Will criminal charges affect the lawsuit? Would insurance companies use a criminal conviction or trial as proof that the damage was not covered? BSA's current insurance is general liability; not covering criminal acts. BSA site: "The general liability policy does not provide indemnification or defense coverage to those individuals who commit intentional and criminal acts. The Boy Scouts of America does not have an insurance policy that provides defense for situations involving allegations of intentional and criminal acts." https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss10/ I'm not sure what past insurance was like, but I would expect the policies would be similar. Also, I'm not sure if BSA is still insured or if it's just the individuals. ... I find I only understand insurance after-the-fact.

I thought I heard in the past that BSA had been paying for counseling for some past victims. I remember reading it. The poster commented that when bankruptcy started those payments stopped.

I'm assuming your 55,000 is SOL based. I'm betting it's much higher if you factor in (as you alluded to), ... a familiar church (family, friends, etc) a insufficient pot of money to justify firms floating cost of contingent legal cases COs that just don't exist anymore victims that just are not that committed (headaches, insufficient incentive, rehashing the past)

I'd be interested in more information state conference having power to consolidate / sell property. From what I read, that is probably more about the goodwill congregation to congregation and that the congregation wants to stay in the good graces of the state conference. I read this to learn more about Methodist church structure. It's only one sample though. https://nccumc.org/treasurer/files/Incorporation.pdf I'm betting that, beyond cooperation, a state conference has no real power to force selling a specific congregations property.

Perfect answer. A great CC looks to protect SM / scouts from too many adults.

Methodist deep pockets are the assets (building / acreage). It's a mismatch. No liquidity, but huge assets. It's why I wonder if individual Methodist churches might be better off on their own in this. Would lawyers represent on a contingent basis cases from 30+, 40+ years ago against a congregation with little revenue, but only has a building. It would be expensive and complicated to pursue. Plus, the congregation would be forced in to bankruptcy and need to argue the building is protected as a fundamental for all the good they do for the community. I just don't see thousands of individual CO court cases happening. Hundreds? Maybe. Thousands? No.

I don't understand talking about Catholic and Methodist as two of the parties. These are the two largest "categories" of COs. Well established legally separate --> 150 Catholic dioceses --> 32,000 Methodist congregations. Some with recent bankruptcies that complicate / erase past "legal" liability. Some with their own CSA settlements that could overlap. No single structure to get more cash or to bring in each of these to the settlement. Only way for BSA to exit bankruptcy is BSA only. I just don't see CO protection. On the flip side, I'm not sure how many of the 32,000+ individual entities would actually be sued and/or have to pay in their own case. I'm betting of BSA's 80,000+ cases that the majority would have trouble on a CO case-by-case basis. So, I'm betting many of the COs would not feel a need to get protection.

Tying settlement to future membership revenue is confusing to me. This is a bankruptcy. BSA is a new company after. But the LCs are doing the payment because they are NOT in bankruptcy? Is that the idea? This settlement sounds like a Hail Mary play to try to find the end-zone.

That's when scouting starts getting fun. The troop can actually start performing. I've seen troops keep switching people because they need jobs. The troop never gets out of 1st gear to do anything interesting.

This is a long-stated position of mine. BSA needs to be careful about their messages to the adult volunteers. Adult volunteers too often hear that BSA is about leadership. Thus, their job is to teach leadership or to teach scout's how to lead / how to run things. What I often see is the worst possible message and lessons. IMHO, BSA should be telling adult volunteers to teach scouts how to setup a tent or cook a meal ... or better yet ... enable an experienced scout to teach a new scout how. Let the scouts naturally learn leadership / getting the job done by doing / being active. Leadership is a great benefit of scouting. BUT, scouting is about DOING.

Absolutely agree with this. BUT the question is what challenges? I view that as the pride of successfully camping in a torrential down pour or cross country skiing at -20F or a 50 mile camping bike ride or a ... Youth also want responsibilities. Setting up tent. Cooking. Being responsible for themselves. What youth do NOT want is to be preached at. It's why the scoutmaster's minute works so well. A light reflective moment that SMs can leverage. ... example ... I hope never again to see adults hovering around injecting as a patrol creates their meal plan and decide who's going to shop.

Yes. Many of us still went by XXX. It's that our registration and all documentation became #XXX. Scouts learned quickly to deal with it. Over time, everyone just called it #XXX. ... It's really a transitional issue. Scouts and parents age out. Very quickly scouts are asking why we just don't use our full number #XXX. In fact, most scouts do use #XXX as it was a ten year ago change and all their advancement cards (MB, rank) and their hand book says #XXX.

Though I want to avoid the baiting ... I do fully agree with you. I daily think scouts has lost it's path. At the tail end of twenty years ago where my wife told me to bring my first son to a cub joining event, I really question whether I'd do it the same again. I kept my son in it for the activities, the outings and the friendships. We tolerated much of the rest as part of paying the price to be in scouts. BUT, the price was a too much too many times. I wanted my sons to camp, canoe, ski and get outside. I did not bring my sons to be preached at repeatedly.

Giving back to the community is the reason that I have always seen. "Marketing" or promoting depends. I have never seen CO's use it as a tool to get more CO members or more CO revenue. Heck, they'd be even more involved if they wanted to do that. I have SLIGHTLY seen it as "pride"; which in today's era could also be called hubris.

An extra 4th digit was prefixed on when our council merged with another. We can always tell which legacy council units were in.

I'd love to see the bill versus payment. A lawyer friend of mine made the comment that he's sure the court was not necessarily paying 100% of the legal bills. Courts can reduce fees as they see fit. ... I'm not seeing that in this case. If you have a link to it that I can see, I'd appreciate it.

MattR wrote: .... Enron it was 2% and for the BSA it's already 40%. 2% wouldn't have much impact on what survivors get. Numbers need context. 2% of Enron's 63.4B bankruptcy is $1.3 billion in legal cost. BSA's case is probably as hard if not harder due to the ugliness of CSA and the many competing factors and other plaintiffs. Also, it's hard to find BSA's value alone, but it's way smaller than Enron.

When you write "billed to the estate" ... that being the estate of BSA (old, pre-bankruptcy). QUESTION - Is that money flowing out right now? Or pending settlement? I ask as if it's being billed and paid now, what is the closure incentive ? Closure would mean a dried up revenue stream. ... If as I suspect, the BSA estate value is being diminished at a rate of $10m+ a month to handle the legal fees against a $200m/$300m settlement from BSA. It reminds me of the divorce of a friend of mine. He and his ex-wife spent well over $600k on the divorce legal process as it was not a nice divorce. His comment was that there was no incentive for the courts, the lawyers or his wife to work it efficiently. ... His wife was a lawyer too.

So 10% is not in the retainer agreement? It's a good-will basis?