fred8033
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Posts posted by fred8033
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I'd argue younger siblings were already enjoying scouting when packs had family events. K, 1st and 2nd got to see the pack and experience the benefits. ... There is relatively little special about cubs in the very, very early years. The only loss is BSA membership revenue for those three years. But those gains are made up in big membership loses in later years.
If I had to do it over again, I would have started my sons in scouting in 3rd or 4th grade. Nothing would have been lost. Younger siblings would have been able to participate in plenty of pack events.
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3 hours ago, mtgavin said:
The Scout in question will soon be appearing before his unit Committee, looking for approval on his Eagle Project.
That may be your troop's approach. There is zero requirement for the scout to present to a unit committee. We could waste a debate on if that is an extra requirement. But that's a different topic. The Eagle project proposal review can be as simple as the scout approaching the CC asking for a signature and then the CC asking the scout "what am I signing? tell me about it" Could be two minutes. Could be twenty. There is zero requirement to present to a unit committee.
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So so many parts here. I'll probably add and edit.
#1 Yes, a BOR can choose to not pass a scout. ... I've seen hundreds and hundreds of BORs. The scout should not fail. If a BOR chooses to not advance the scout, the scout needs to be told in writing why. ... in this case, it's clear. The scout did not participate in the BOR. ... The scout not answering one question should NOT be a reason. The scout not actively participating in the BOR is a reason. ... BUT, any adult worth being on a BOR should be able to solicit the scout's participation. Any adult on the BOR should also be asking why did this happen. ... it begs the next question ...
#2 ... What is the scout's history? What happened? Did the scout not trust the BOR adults? To get to a Life BOR, the scout passed at least five BORs. What is different this time? ... I'd want the SM and other adults to honestly reflect on this. ... Did the CC or another BOR adults chew the scout out previously? Lose trust? Did some adult treat the scout unfairly? ... even if just in the scout's view? How did the scout pass several and now fail? ... I'd also ask are some of the BOR adults normally interacting with the scout (camping, MBs, troop mtgs)? If so, they should not be on the BOR.
... Similar ... why did the SM think a non-troop BOR was needed? It smells like the SM knows the cause / reason.
#3 Is a completely non-troop BOR acceptable? No and yes. BSA Guide To Advancement has the rules ... to be mixed with a kind heart by the adults. GTA section 8.0.2.0 does say it is to be 3 to 6 unit committee members. Since the BOR exists for many reasons, including improving the troop, the rule is clearly to use troop committee members. That said, this is not really unusual. We help the scouts. We solve people issues when people clash. ... I do fear the SM doing an end-around the committee clearly subverts explicit roles. What should happen next? CC refuses to sign the scout's Eagle application? CC protests an advancement report to the council? ... SM should not have set up an alternative BOR. That's absolutely NOT the SM's job. GTA explicitly says it's the unit committee job to be guided/assigned by the troop committee chair.
The CC could make a fuss about this BOR as the CC has real grounds. The unit leaders did not advance the scout. .... BUT ... IMHO ... that would be absolutely, absolutely wrong. This specific scout participated in a Life BOR. It's done. Period. Let it sit. We don't fight adult battles using the scouts.
#4 BOR purpose is to give the unit feedback ... The unit committee got a huge ugly feedback dump by the scout AND the SM. The unit is doing badly. ... The question now is how does the unit committee fix the troop? That's the CC/COR responsibility. Honestly, should the CC/COR remove the SM? The CC/COR has clear cause. ... We don't penalize scouts, but we do remove adults that can't work together. OR, is there a unit committee member (or members) that are not working well together and they need to leave?
IMHO ... SM found a solution, but may have created more issues. There is clearly a problem between the scout, the SM, the unit CC and the unit committee members. Those adults better have some honest conversations soon about unresolved issues that will keep escalating.
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21 hours ago, jcousino said:
so
a game that is a direct fighting game. swordplay etc,
A game that involves causing carnage with cars.
And best of the lot is a game about football.
and we still cannot play laser tag. Not sure I totally follow this.john
You are pointing out that a Guide To Safe Scouting can be ridiculous. I 100% agree that laser tag should be allowed. NOTE: AS LEADERS, WE HAVE PLEDGED TO FOLLOW IT. It's part of our honor to do that ... and with grumbling with laser tag.
To me, the eSports tournament is fine. It's really not a significant debate to me. Scouts want it. They are doing it. I'd be happy my son was trying to connect with a larger group.
We each judge a boundaries differently. Laser tag is obviously not an issue to me. I like your comment because it reminds me that I really had my sons in scouts to teach them to be men. Responsibility. Adventures. Hardship. Recognizing they can do really hard things. ... I see zero issue with eSports or laser tag. Laser tag is running around, sweating and competing. We should celebrate it; not ban it. ... .... BIG BIG TANGENT ... Personally, I wish my sons (and the rest of the scouts) could have done some of the earlier activities to toughen them up. Bring back British Bulldog. Bring back a revised master-at-arms MB and boxing tournaments. We want our scouts to stand up to wrong. That also means to teach them they will survive taking a punch. ... IMHO, it's why scouting was respected years ago. Scouts were confident and tough.
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1 hour ago, mrjohns2 said:
My daughters were sad there wasn’t a Minecraft one. They would have watched.
Yeah, Minecraft would have been a big win too. The Minecraft purpose and game idea baffles me, but it's been continually popular for ?? ten years ??.
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I think this is brilliant. Connects with the younger generations. Many adults in the 20s and even early 30s often see eSports tournaments bigger than NFL, etc.
I still remember the first time I saw the Las Vegas Luxor (huge casino) permanently rebranded as an eSports venue.
BSA eSports tournaments could ...- Promotes fellowship
- Promotes competition.
- A chance for youth to aspire in the same way they see nation wide trends
- If rightly used, a way for troops to be more involved with their scouts.
I remember multiple times
- Scouts at troop campfires planning online / video gaming events
- AND ... Scouts at troop video gaming events planning their next campout
Video gaming is the new poker, canasta, uker, hearts, spades, pokemon, yugio, etc, etc. It's just part of their lives.
It's really not that big of an issue. ... It would be big if this replaces a troop's outdoor program and activities.
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2 hours ago, qwazse said:
... than honoring a parent's preference for isolation. ...
It's slight wording like this that would make me hesitate to give permission. Asserting a parent wants to be isolated is a biased and belittling view of the parents opinion. ... I probably would give permission as my son would be boxed in. I'd truly have contempt for the situation. I'd reluctantly and grudgingly give permission.
People can have real differences of opinion while being well informed and connected to society. I was in a discussion this last weekend. I expressed an opinion that was based on what I've seen and read. Instead of discussion and trying to work true the details, it was asserted I must be watching bad news sources.
1 hour ago, Armymutt said:A trait can be something simple as hair color.
That similarly subverts the MB and can teach bad lessons. The scout knows the MB is looking for larger differences. I'm not sure this would teach a good lesson. BUT, it would get out of the dog house.
IMHO ... scouts has a purpose of teaching how government works. Scouts should not get into controversial topics.
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1 hour ago, elitts said:
Well written article. Similar articles (won't list now) on the poor press coverage of such incidents. The press really coverage really added little.
57 minutes ago, yknot said:I read it very carefully. Fred's a sweet guy, but that discussion was tunneling. Glad it stopped.
It stopped because no one likes unjustly being accused of being mean.
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2 minutes ago, qwazse said:
But, we (not just you and me, but all scouters who may in the future read this) must not back down from the truth written in the skies.
@qwazse ... We are really too far removed from the specifics to judge either direction on "truth". Inferring either way is useless. Inferring it's okay for unit leaders to routinely second guess a MBC is just bad and does NOT have any standing in the GTA. Future leaders would do well to read GTA for rules and intent. ... The rule is a MBC is the final judge on if the MB is done; not the unit leader. Unit leaders are not to second guess requirement wording / specifics / etc.
As this escalated so fast, there is more going on than this discussion thread can handle.
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1 hour ago, nolesrule said:
.... Besides, there's a strong girls troop nearby and a strong Venturing crew with which my kids and I already have some established relationships through camps, OA and NYLT. I'm not going to politic to take other scouts with us should the time come to move on.
@nolesrule ... Speaking from experience. Your scout's career is short. You have a three month suspension. You're banned from troop meetings. Then add another six months to get back to normal. Another year to stop looking over your shoulder waiting for the next problem to drop. Yet another year to build trust. And risk that it will never recover.
IMHO ... move on. Things might recover, but all events for the next year will be tainted at best. It's just not worth putting your child in the middle of your pain to fix this situation. Plus, your child might benefit from seeing you leave a bad situation. ... every decision has many results and many lessons ...
- If your scout has an option for a strong girls troop near by, have her join. You can just be a parent and enjoy life as a scouting parent.
- If already established in venturing, focus on that.
For those from this mess ... Be humble and kind and warm hearted when you see these people in the future. Own up to your own mistakes. Avoid reminding them of their mistakes. Even though you won't be in the same unit, try to heal the relationships. Strange thing is that scouters often re-encounter each other.
I am not saying you are wrong. IMHO, if the camp issued the MB, it's done. ... but reality is this should never have escalated like it did. ... what can be done different? ... Perhaps, step back and enjoy a more personal role with your scout. Sneak a few treats together. Watch a sunset together. Go on an extra hike together. Beyond that, let others lead for a bit. ... I say that because when I've gone thru messes like this, it really damages confidence. My reactions can be based more on emotion than logic or common sense. Small issues get escalated. ... It takes time to get reground and move past events like this. Just enjoy the time. ... Being a leader is like being in a relationship. Takes time to build and grow. When it crashes, jumping into a new leadership role won't go well. Give it time.
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43 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:
I guess it is rare, but our council made night specific flyers, gave us yard signs, contacted 3 schools to arrange talks, and did the 3 talks. The district had one membership committee member attend our round up nights to help. They then drove our paper apps to the office and helped us fill out forms for those that need financial assistance. About 5 Cubs received financial assistance from the council.
It is a good idea not to expect much, but some councils help a lot.
You are right. That's what I've seen too. Council invests to help recruit. I was thinking from running the pack. Council did little to help run a pack.
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48 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:
Tigers have been around for 40 years now. One would think we had enough data on it by now. Back in the day (70’s and before) was better without the Tigers?
Yes and no. Tigers until 2000 was essentially a friend of the pack. ... Started in 1982 as a parent/child activity. Only to attend a few pack meetings a year. No derby car. No uniform. 1986 age lowered when ranks became grade aligned. 1996 more aligned with pack. 2001 was when Tiger became an integrated part of the pack. I remember that one as my oldest son was a wolf. He was the last age to use the orange t-shirts as a uniform. I liked that t-shirt. It was cheap.
"enough data"? Again, yes and no. We've seen constant declines for 20+ years. Was it bad press coverage of Dale v BSA, CSA and IVF files? Internet and all kids online all the time? Growth of youth sports? Or, the Tiger & Lion program? Causality is not clean or singular.
To be fair, I don't think Lion/Tiger is the biggest cause. ... but that's just a guess.
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On 9/21/2022 at 4:09 PM, Ojoman said:
If we impress on our older scouts, grade 8 and up, of the type of resume they are building through leadership training and offices held along with badges and ranks earned, perhaps the word would get out and more of their peers would join at those higher ages.
14/15 year olds just don't care much about resume building.
Give them adventure, friendships and fun. They will come. The rest is just decoration.
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@nolesrule ... Ugh. Kids can easily tell when their parents are upset about something. Often they hear pieces of conversation and pickup fast. What could have been a torn could have become a stopping point for her.
Is there another girl's troop near by to join?
Is the other ASM just out-right quitting along with his daughter quitting? Or would they consider another troop?
Have you already paid your Jamboree money?
At some point ... and I should have said this earlier ... take a look at your scout's overall experience. Is it good or bad with the SM/CC? If neutral to good, this becomes a lesson in working with other people. The specific MB is just not that important. Though I have contempt for what happened, this might not be the war you want to fight.I'd be more concerned with keeping your daughter on the path toward a positive experience and growing as a positive good person. The rest is just not critical.
FYI ... Doesn't sound like the COR handled this the best either. There is no need for trials or asking people to leave the room when presenting their views on what happened. IMHO ... that's a sign of already bad things that will end scouting careers. It's no way to resolve a MB. ...
This sounds like major personality conflict inside the unit.
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1) Volunteers. ... Agree with earlier. Simplify as much as possible. Look for free community events and/or resources. If your city is having a big vehicle day when your city shows off it's big stuff, somehow find a way to get the whole pack to meetup there. Maybe grab an area off to the side for a rally point. Find a city park and have a pack game day.
2) Facility ... Us too. We rented a school space. It was cheap. Dens met at their own choice.
3) Council ... Councils don't do anything for individual packs. Period. Don't expect different.
4) Cost ... Agree with earlier. Reduce the cost. Don't need to buy books until the troop years. Maybe webelos. Uniform? It gets clumsy. Some don't want to spend. Some expect everyone uniformed. It's a really screwed up expectation. ... but you are right, pack scouts reap huge revenue for BSA where troop scouts is less but the big focus.
5) Ages. ... "This is the one easy one. @Armymutt is correct" ... but I also agree with your assertion. There is zero learning K-3 that is useful later. Even 4th and 5th grades are an excuse to start younger boys that want to join their older brother's troops. IMHO, youth could join a troop never having been in a pack and no one would notice a difference after the first week.
6) Indoors/outdoors. ..."Do what's fun for the scouts. Getting them comfortable being outside while having fun is the best preparation for scouts." ... love that answer.
7) Religion. Yep. Focus on scout law. Leave religion for the families.
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On 9/20/2022 at 7:43 AM, cmd said:
So, whether or not the Lion program is a good idea over all, not having that rank when the other options in your area do puts a pack at a disadvantage for years.
You are right. If other packs have a Lions den OR if your council advertises Lions, you are basically forced (for the health of your pack) to have a Lions den. Or, those dedicated families will go to other packs and start drawing away from your pack.
On 9/20/2022 at 7:43 AM, cmd said:I will say, though, that I don't think there's any need for the advancement piece at this age. I would love to replace Lions with a true "Family Scouting" program for K and even younger that offered a family camping opportunity 1-2 times a year and maybe a few hikes and an easy service project like maybe one block of Scouting for Food or just asking them to bring in something to build a Thanksgiving basket together for a family in need. Younger siblings are welcome at all our pack events, and it always makes me a little sad to know there's no way to extend that experience to kids without an older sibling.
Fully agree. Even before Lions (and essentially Tigers ... or girls ... or ...), packs often had multiple "family" events per year. There was no need to make Lions and Tigers official ranks or registered members.
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On 9/20/2022 at 6:05 AM, qwazse said:
Lions, while a nice service for parents who don’t know how to arrange play dates, is having little influence on retention of middle school youth.
Wrong. It has a bad influence. Tigers is similar, but not as extremely evident. ... IMHO ... start'em when you can give them a knife, fire or bow-and-arrow.
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On 9/23/2022 at 12:08 PM, qwazse said:
Were your leaders wrong? Did or did not your scout complete the requirement as written? A couple of us have posted that we are quite clear that in order to “explain the changes you observe” one must scout the sky with ones own vision and by one’s own hand render images that can later be decoded to report to some conclusion regarding planetary motion. If your scout did that, then the troop’s actions resulted in her being wrongly denied a completed blue card. If she did not, then she rightly received a partial.
Yes. It is NOT the unit leader's job to second guess the MBC or the camp staff. A unit leader after-the-fact second-guessing the camp staff / MBC sucks the life out of the scout. It's an enthusiasm killer.
Camp staff often design accommodations to allow doing a MB in a camp setting and with a group. The best example often is when a group is sampled for requirement "discuss" answers instead of requiring each and every scout to answer the question. Other flexibility is done to focus on giving the scout a positive, rewarding experience while still teaching the content of the MB.
I'm absolutely okay with partials. BUT, that's the choice of the MBC; not the unit leader.
A key point is the MBs are a council / district program. MBs are NOT a unit program. MBCs are council registered; not unit registered.
On 9/23/2022 at 12:59 PM, nolesrule said:@qwazse... I don't know what we can do as program leaders about monitoring the specifics of the verbs in every requirement. We have to put some level of trust into those who counsel our scouts to do the right thing. But also as leaders when we do have questions we cannot shortcut the process and jump to conclusions. To undo something that has been affirmed as done, in some cases by multiple people, we have to be absolutely sure. To do otherwise is an implicit accusation of lying.
Unit leaders are absolutely NOT there to "monitor the specifics of the verbs" or second guess the MBCs. That's a clear sign of overstepping boundaries. Unit leaders need to focus on unit program quality. If unit leaders don't like the MBC choices, then the unit leader lets their council know. They do NOT take it out on the scout.
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Key to finding adults is it's mainly a chat with the scout. Encouraging the scout and collecting casual feedback on how the troop is doing. So, it's really nothing more than a relaxed chat. One experienced adult and two other adults are enough. It's really not "asking for help" as much as having someone just sit in.
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@nolesrule ... You will not get an exact procedure. There is none. Scouting is very much a social experiment where kind people with kind hearts work with each other. We try not to apply rules or procedures against each other. The idea is the SM should be talking with those involved and talking with the scout. With thoughtfulness. With a kind heart. With consideration and a listening ear. The idea is to build connection and teach a lesson.
If I were SM, I should not fight a battle about an Astronomy MB earned at summer camp using scouting staff and a standard program offered to all troops. It sounds more like a dispute between SM and camp programming. If so, the scout should not be in the middle.
GTA 7.0.4.7 is titled "Limited recourse" as it's supposed to be rare and not used like this. GTA 7.0.4.7 is for obvious errors that everyone agrees a mistake happened ... OR .. a liar liar pants on fire situation. This is not your case. Your case is a debate if the MBC (camp staff) correctly interpreted the requirement. ... GTA 7.0.4.7 is not to dispute a camp staff MB program.
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16 minutes ago, MikeS72 said:
Not sure if it is being pushed more for the propective revenues or due to the fact that I was told by one of the higher up in my council that the bankruptcy court told BSA it cannot show negative balance for the event.
Ouch. The bankruptcy process itself is a business killer. It's like hospital fears some of my extended relatives have --> don't go into the hospital because the hospital might kill you. Sadly, there is some basis in fact with that. Bankruptcy legal process is similar. ... Sometimes companies have to invest in loss leaders for strategic reasons.
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32 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:
Some troops (ours) has an NCS / NRA certified rifle instructor and 2 other certified RSOs. So, we could do a troop shoot. We have one planned for next year. Not many can meet this threshold.
Our troop too. I don't think it's that unusual in a good sized troop.
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29 minutes ago, elitts said:
If separate people committed distinct crimes, I don't have any problem with multiple charges. However what commonly happens is you have DAs stacking up multiple charges for the same offense for (usually) sole purpose of essentially extorting the defendant into accepting a plea deal. (or sometimes so that they can advertise to the public their "tough on crime" stance for elections)
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I don't have a problem with a fair punishment, though it's hard to know what's fair without knowing what kind of negligence we are talking about. I just object to warping the system.
#1 ... not only extorting defendants ... it biases juries. "Beyond a reasonable doubt" is to convict on a single charge; but situations are rarely clear cut. A jury can feel good about their decision if they feel they proportionately convict. ... Thinking being we're not really sure if the accused is really guilty. So, let's convict on one of five of the charges. That way the decision to not convict on the 4 of 5 reflects the doubt and feels like a fair decision. In addition, juries think he must be guilty of one of these. Let's choose the closest match. ... Even worse, these situations are ugly. It's hard for a jury to see an ugly situation and not convict on any of multiple charges.
#2 Fair punishment is always hard to decide. Even harder deciding on fair without having a single fact.
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1 hour ago, yknot said:
If a child is dead -- no matter where -- when supposedly responsible adults were present I sure hope there would be a lot of charges. I have to say I am not finding that the direction this conversation is taking to be worthy of scouting.
Don't judge. It's not scout like either. ... It's a tragedy. ... We're trying to understand what happened. ... Also be careful, responsible adults are not automatically criminals. ... I suspect real negligence happened here. But, we don't know that yet as the news article has not provided any meaningful details. No matter what, it's a tragedy for all involved.
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How to deal with youth that are uncomfortable to approach Scoutmaster
in Working with Kids
Posted
@Jmatt0613 ... @InquisitiveScouter is exactly right. This is not a winning battle for you. The adults are treating you as unwelcome. I don't see a recovery path. ... DO NOT TAKE THIS AS A PERSONAL HIT AGAINST YOU. Use this as a lesson on group dynamics. They don't view you as an equal. They are running the program for their kids and other under-age youth. You are not viewed as an adult or a parent.
Life is filled with transitions. Don't be scared. It is time to cut your ties to the troop. Find somewhere else to spend your time. Hopefully, the future has a scouting path. BUT, it might also be outside scouting. Your future can be good both inside and outside scouting.