fred8033

$100 plus monthly is a stopper.   My ideal is the generic monthly camp out should (at that time) have been $20 or less.  Now, $30 or less would be reasonable.   Bigger adventures a few times a year are great, but few families can afford.

Our "ideal" ... when I was in troop planning was that every patrol have every month an option for one camp out and one activity.  Sometimes if at the troop level, then patrols often had the option of more than one camp out and more than one activity; such as patrol camp out and a troop camp out.  Or a patrol game night and a troop swim night.  or ...      It's important to create opportunities for the scout as that's when lessons are learned and when a scout finds a reason to stay in scouts.

15 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

 $368 is simply the direct bankruptcy costs paid by BSA.

... Paid by BSA ... help me with my understanding.   BSA is also paying costs for legal costs for those with claims and overhead.  In addition, Omni, land appraisals. etc, etc.   So, I'm reading it as BSA is not spending $13m per month defending itself or being oppositional.  BSA is paying costs from many sides.  ... Please correct me if I'm wrong.

5 hours ago, clbkbx said:

Hi @fred8033... to the first question, I only know that's broken down in the filings including the by-firm table that was posted above which gives a good overall sense.

I thought that in your initial post you were saying something along the lines of: an entity pays X fees to get to Y settlement (basically, what is BSA going to pay out of pocket to get through bankruptcy) and that X is normally 25-30% of Y. It seems like I might have been mistaken. 

For the second part, I think we are saying the same thing. The BSA is putting a certain amount ($500k iirc) into the Trust regardless of what payments they make to get through the process. Everything they pay out for the bankruptcy reduces what's they have available for operating going forward.

$500k?  Thousand or million?    I originally heard BSA was bringing around $400m to the bankruptcy.  I thought that was both proceedings and money that could be used to pay debts.  

... reduces operating going forward ... I never understood that.  It seems backwards.  If money can be afforded to pay for the bankruptcy proceedings, then any unspent in that gray affordable money area that could be spent would be best sent to debtors ... or I thought I'd imagine.

It goes to show that I really don't understand the ugly finances of a bankruptcy.   

I read the earlier list of who is billing what, but it really doesn't make sense to me still.

QUESTION? ... $368m ... Can someone frame the court approved fee payments in a more basic primitive manor?  administrative fees (appraisals, etc) versus BSA defense council fees versus victim advocate fees (TCC, etc) ?  Or victim advocate fees routed through any of the BSA council invoices or are they completely separate?  

1 minute ago, clbkbx said:

The BSA costs always seem to me to be about it's continued viability. They're not adding or subtracting to the amount they put into the Trust based on what it takes to get through bankruptcy. 

@clbkbx ...   What portion of the $368m are BSA side legal fees versus victim representative fees vs other fees ? 

If the court approves the fees, then it's the cost of the bankruptcy and reduces what was available at the start of the bankruptcy.

37 minutes ago, clbkbx said:

I've often wondered this (what is a typical fee to settlement ratio) and never found a good source. If the above is normal, wouldn't the fees in this case be about 50% less than normal? 

$2.7B x 0.25 = $675MM and $2.7B x 0.3 = $810MM. Currently at $368MM. 

(BTW, I'm not a lawyer!)

I greatly appreciate Eagle1993 adding the values together.  

The current fees are $368m. 

• How much further will it go?  six months more?  a year? 
• How much to setup and administer the trust?   Assuming trust goes for years.
• What percent of individual awards go to the individual lawyers?  

BSA brought about $400m to the bankruptcy.  So, fees will be at least 100% of the BSA bankruptcy.  Effectively, the whole bankruptcy was re-invested / gambled as legal fees to negotiate with insurance companies. 

My big fear is ... If 3rd party releases are appealed and decided illegal and insurance companies withdraw, the available funds go to zero.  ...  The whole idea of large legal fee awards in cases like this is that the legal firms are taking on huge risk to pay the cost up front.  ... I just don't see that in this case. 

I question whether we will ever understand how much went to the actual victims.  I completely don't understand outside of pre-billed feels versus award sharing percentages.  How much of individual awards will be split with their individual lawyers.  If a victim gets awarded $100,000, will $25,000 / $30,000 go to their representing lawyer?  If the lawyers firm billed fees in this case, will the lawyer also get a high percent of the award?  Lower percent?  No share?  
 

Hope this will be allowed.  I thought of BSA's bankruptcy when I listened to the settlement in the Florida condo collapse.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article265041154.html

• Lawyer hourly fees can have a 4.x multiplier in Florida
• The one year case had 17 law firms (132 attorneys, paralegals and assistants) who recorded 34,200 hours.   ...  Image of Tom Cruise Xeroxing time sheets in the Firm.
• Melded rate (attorney, paralegals, assistants) of $715 ... expensive paralegals and assistants.  Total $24.7 million.  Could have been 4.5x resulting in $100m legal fees.
• Judge awarded 3x for multiplier - awarded $65m legal fees
• Settlement was $1.1 billion

Attorney fees were 6.5 % of settlement.  A success considering normal 25% to 30% fees.  

Lots to discuss even in this case, but at least victims families did well in the settlement.

Made me think about BSA's bankruptcy.

23 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

... Certain insurers are basically laying the groundwork to say the plan is funded so leave us alone. ...

21 hours ago, Eagle1970 said:

My reaction is that "funded" appears to be a relative term. ...  Frankly, the beating we have taken since this case started will only be worsened if the press prints the "fully funded" garbage.

IMHO, the press repeating "fully funded" would be a continuation of the press loosely and sloppily using words to make interesting a relatively boring story about small steps in a long-running court case.  We've seen that repeatedly in this case (and really most news events).   I always fear press interpretations and prefer using it to get the facts.  The story is the potential settlement took a small step forward, but also faced a few objections that need resolution.

In this case, I see no reason why insurers would contribute if they can't get protection from future settlements / demands.  Saying it's fully funded in a way to protect insurers seems very important.  

4 hours ago, MattR said:

So what you're saying is get rid of the pamphlets, as there's little need for a pamphlet where the activities are the driving motivation.

We've had that discussion and I'm all for it. But it requires changing the requirements for all the MBs and I doubt it will happen.

I'm not suggesting to eliminate the MBs pamphlets.  I'm not suggesting rewriting the requirements ... except to reduce the number of words and reduce the legalism.

I'm saying the MBs should reflect more social interaction and more activity.  Though okay as a fallback, I don't want to send scouts away to read a MB pamphlet.

37 minutes ago, MattR said:

If someone has an idea on how to motivate scouts to read the books I'm interested in hearing it. ...

Back to the heart of scouting.  Outings and social interactions. 

• Canoeing MB?  Go canoeing.  Hold the paddle.  During the trip, show a j-stroke and how to properly enter and exit the canoe.   Discuss the names and parts of the canoe.
• Bicycling MB?  Go biking and fix a tire and etc, etc.  
• Camping MB?  Go camping.  Work thru the requirement details in a one-on-one basis.  
• Citizen of the nation MB?  Have the conversations.  Go visit historical sites.  Have the discussions. 

MB pamphlets should be the fall back, but not the main path.  Scouting is not school with assigned text books and worksheets. 

MB pamphlets are better for the MBC than for the scout.  More like the teacher's answer guide.  

Troop stopped maintaining MB book library.  Extremely rarely used.  Just not worth the effort.  

I flip-flop.   Price is too much.  I fear inflation pushing price even higher.  It's not thifty.  Also, the MB book practice is anachronistic in an online society.  When scouts are driven and motivated, they won't pick up a physical book.  They go-online fast.  

On the flip side, there is something about a physical book.  Opening and seeing pictures and words with fixed locations on paper and the words will still be in that exact spot the next day.  I remember the eco building with their books where scouts would work.  Scouts did often open those books.   ... BUT ... they opened the books when idle and absorbing the eco center.  .... They never opened the books when pushed to earn a badge.  

As a MBC, I just can't honestly recommend the scouts get the MB book.  Scouts are to learn the topic; not pushed to spend money.

58 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

Just to pass on a comment from a SM that caught me by surprise, but intriguing (and I paraphrase to get all the ideas in context):  "We did an alternative summer camp by camping at a number of different state parks and private camps/facilities.  We'd spend a day or two at each, then driving to the next.  The kids planned it all.  We brought the adult talent to do program, but the facilities were provided by the parks and private camps. Done this a number of years."

We've done that too.  Always was a great event. 

• To avoid multiple setup/tear down, we chose an area with multiple activities / options ... then found a centrally located camp site (state park, national forest, private).   
• Scouts that still wanted the standard, every-year summer camp option.  They felt robbed if they could not repeat the same summer camp each year.  

Our "ideal" pattern was ... did not happen perfectly every year. 

• Jun/Jul/Aug - one month - troop standard summer camp commitment. 
• Jun/Jul/Aug - one month - patrol sized high adventure
• Jun/Jul/Aug - one month - troop low adventure summer camp ... similar to stated in previous post

Required lots of parental support and a healthy number of leaders. 

9 minutes ago, skeptic said:

How about is it simply "human predator based".  That is really what it is.  I has little to do with the Church/CO or BSA directly, as the people doingit are NOT representative of the CO's or BSA.  They are part of the fringe, but sadly fairly common negative elements of humanity.  Just an observation that seems obvious to me.  But, I guess some will disagree, as is their right.  

Referring to future court cases.  LDS & scouting was tightly integrated.  I don't see how court cases can be cleanly scouting or church.  ... It feels like a future court case nightmare.  ... I'm wondering how lawyers interpret liability if in one view has bankruptcy protection and the other doesn't.  

8 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Non scouting abuse... No protection 

So, the debate then will always be ... was it church based or was it scouting based.   I can understand why they want to still be in the bankruptcy as a participating CO.

7 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

TCJC deal is removed but they are a participating CO.  

Does this mean incidents will need to be judged on whether they were "scouting" or "church"?  If scouting, it's part of bankruptcy?  If church, it's not?

1 hour ago, SSScout said:

All Scouting is local...

... Troop(s)  found a new home in the VFC. ...

VFC?  VFW?  

6 hours ago, GrammaScout said:

...   This person has put himself 'in charge'.   He sat in for the Committee Chair when she has been unable to attend...is that kosher?   ...  He is no longer a COR.   He has represented the 'Church', never the Troop....How has this happened?

There must be more to the story.  Did the CC ask the unit commissioner to run the mtg?  There is no path for a unit commissioner or former COR to take charge without the unit putting them in that position.  

... we got bounced ...       ... too controversial. 

On 8/7/2022 at 12:22 PM, FormerCubmaster said:

...  “Mormon Tabernacle Choir” and “Mormon Youth Symphony” have been been officially renamed ...

That's a huge branding loss.  Tabernacle choir is rather generic and few know what/where Temple Square is.  I fear this will be long-term like The Artist Formerly known as Prince.  We will have a choir formerly known as the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.

38 minutes ago, FormerCubmaster said:

Yes.  There is a single corporation sole out of Salt Lake City that holds the deed to every LDS meetinghouse [actually two or three, but they are all indisputably under the control of the church’s central governing body].  All member donations are forwarded to Salt Lake City each week, and the central church leadership then turns around and funds each congregation’s annual operating budget on a per capita basis.  All congregational bishops, too, are individually formally approved by Salt Lake prior to their ordination.

(That’s how it works in the LDS Church within the USA, anyways.  Other countries may run a little differently depending on laws governing nonprofit operation, restrictions on international funds transfers, and so on.  But to the extent legally possible, the church’s operations up to and including its financial holdings are very tightly controlled out of Salt Lake.  A financial judgment against one congregation is effectually a financial judgment against all of them.)

Thank you for the answer  !!!!!

Wow.  Even if two or three legal entities, those are massive deep, deep pockets to sue.  .... FYI ... I periodically have to look up TCJC.  It's not a common abbreviation for LDS without LDS tacked on.  

1 hour ago, FireStone said:

The BSA has a long and shaky history of trying to appear to be a better alternative to something else. I think they would do better in marketing and advertising to simply say what they are and leave it at that, not make comparisons. Keep it simple.

Great insight.  Reflect on the scout law and the values we want to teach.  We don't want to teach our scouts to look down on others.  Why would we want our marketing to lift scouting up by looking down on other choices.   ...  I like competitions and races and championships to find who's the best and to raise the game.  BUT, I don't like pride thru snearing another person's faults.  Should not be in our marketing too.  

10 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Option 1 - Opt Out:

No protection from BSA, but they retain insurance rights.  How they attempt to cash in will likely require some lawsuits for insurers who settled.  So far, I am unaware of any CO going down this path.

Thank you !   That explains what I thought would happen.  If a CO opts out, they maintain insurance rights even against an insurance company that settled.  That's what I would expect.  So, if LDS opted out or for COs that are not part of the settlement, those COs still have claims against their insurance ... even if that insurance company settled ... considering previously posted time periods and insurance coverage info.

4 minutes ago, FireStone said:

The product is solid, I think. From the conversations I have with new families, what we offer is exactly what they are looking for. Just yesterday alone I answered questions about how often does the Pack go camping, hiking, how do we foster independence among the scouts, teach them to be more self-reliant, become better problem-solvers, etc. That's what parents are looking for, what some of them specifically asked me about yesterday, and our product is exactly those things that they are looking for.

I might argue that the appearance of the product has grown somewhat stale. It looks a little stuffy sometimes, the uniforming, parade marches, ceremonies, it has some military flair that I think appeals to some families but less so than the spirit of adventure and fun that we try to sell. The stuff that works, the stuff families sign up for, we do that stuff very well.

I think we just to a pretty bad job of getting people to know that we do those things, and that unless they actually seek us out and directly ask about those things, they would otherwise have no idea what local scouting really is.

Agree.  Parents are looking for the outdoors, adversity, etc.   Not many parents crave the standing at attention uniforming anymore.  

43 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Perhaps before we even begin talking about a marketing issue, I think we need to determine if we have a product issue. ...   Most parents and youth see it as a nice activity, but family, sports and school rank much higher than scouts. ... Mike Rowe brings up a lot of good points and perhaps that is a good starting point.  

Hmmm ... I read the Mike Rowe article.   Yep.  Fully agree.   ...  Standing up to aversity instead of providing a safe space.  ... Speaking as a parent (not a leader), I would have supported my son's troop having a boxing ring to resolve arguments.  It's a very important memory from my son's boot camp experience.  He was able to call out someone who did him wrong and they addressed it then and there.  ...  I would not have the skill to run it, but I could see that being valuable.  My goal for my son's scouting experience was to get them out of their comfort zone and do new, harder things.  I often describe it as experiencing canoe camping or bad weather or other outdoor challenges.  Well, there is also the need for standing up for yourself and facing adversity.  And yes also adversity in the face of another person.  

Marketing?  I agree.  Parents are aware of scouting.  Marketing could always improve and scouting misses standing in front of 2nd grade class rooms and show pinewood derby cars to recruit scouts.  But the real issue is the product.  Even scouters are confused on it's value.  Baseball, football, etc have clean statements of why they exist.  I'm not sure scouters always know why scouting exists.  

8 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

... To me, the complex part is if they had a policy that did settle.  Well, the Elks still owe the $500K per the jury finding.  So, perhaps the Elks could try and sue the settlement trust to get whatever they are owed.  I'm not sure what else the Elks could do.

Thank you for the nice write-up.  This is the part that will eternally confuse me.  The insurance settlement is with the victim; not the theoretical CO.  Unless the insurance company is bankrupt, why would the CO go after the settlement trust.  The CO should work with the existing insurance company that insured the CO.

This smells like a 100% match of the 1990s California BCBS class action.  BCBS insured patients and BCBS was negotiating discounts (aka settling) on medical bills and leaving the patient out of discount (settlement).  The medical providers then went after the patients for the remaining part of the original bill.  The CA courts ruled (my crude summary) that BCBS breached the insurance contract by not including the patient in the negotiated discounted bills.  

BSA insurance settling liability claims without covering the insured CO smells like a violation of the basic insurance agreements.