fred8033

On 12/11/2022 at 9:39 AM, Eagle94-A1 said:

All of them said it would be a waste of a summer because they would not be able to earn any MBs.

When our troop did it, we'd often work in a few MBs during the week.  MBs that would align with the location / activities.  Heck, if a scout wants to earn a MB, there are ways to make it happen.

On 12/11/2022 at 9:39 AM, Eagle94-A1 said:

I really wish National would push adventure instead of advancement.

Love that statement.  

23 hours ago, malraux said:

Is this for Cit in the Nation, 2c? It's worth pointing out that Cit in the Nation requirement 2 has the structure of of pick two out of four requirements, so you can do the others. Also, a US embassy or consulate would qualify as would potentially US military bases (though that's tougher). I would also potentially consider a virtual visit to be acceptable within these constraints, but ask your merit badge counselor.

Well answered. 

Requirements are to enlighten the scout and lift his experience.  ... IMHO, requirements are not to be "unreasonable" show-stoppers.  If there would be a chance a year out to visit a federal facility and it fits the scouts journey, great.  But if the requirement will cost $1000 ... or the scout has been showing advancement progress and this one requirement causes an big stopping point, then I'd look for more creative solutions.

On 12/9/2022 at 9:32 AM, Scouterlockport said:

This is a great point, why would it be bad to have another badge about a topic we cover in rank advancement. We have first aid merit badges while also having many first aid advancements from tenderfoot to first class.

Scouts are supposed to be active.  21 merit badges and too many are redundant with school or just boring paperwork.  Now, we have yet another.  Four citizenship MBs is just too many.  ... Five actually ... family, society, nation, world, society?  What next?  Universe?  ... Citizen of the Ecology?  

That's the trouble with accusations.  They happen.  Sometimes real.  Sometimes someone squirming to get out of somewhere they don't want to be.  How do you defend against loose accusations but also protect the vulnerable.  This #### is hard.  Wishing you the best.  

19 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Character, citizenship, fitness, leadership...

Would helping this Scout with 3 out of 4 be acceptable?

Lone scout learning leadership? 

Citizenship by themselves?  Or do you mean the four merit badges?  

Character as a lone scout?  Is it any different from homeschooling by the parents? 

Fitness by themselves?  Fitness is achieved by being in an active, busy group; not just a merit badge.  

IMHO, a specific sport would be better than the lone scout program.  

Scouting is social.  I'm not against the lone scout for isolated families, but I question the match in this situation.

57 minutes ago, skeptic said:

... The unit will likely discuss seriously some more and hopefully find a workable option that protects others, but does not abandon the lad.  ...

The challenge is always that the unit leaders are volunteers.  They are not paid or trained to handle EBD kids and EBD some of the hardest cases.  Worse, those unit volunteers are usually parents too.  They will say one thing and do another.  My favorite:  "if any kid needs scouting, it's this kid" ... BUT ... at the same time, they will quickly pull back on their own kid's involvement because they are afraid of the impact.  OR, their own kid gets scared away.  ... It can kill membership and influence previous recruiting ties to go elsewhere.  

I'm not saying abandon the scout.  I'm saying this is a really hard situation and always is.  A pragmatic approach is important.

It's okay to work with troubled scouts, but boundaries exist.  Scouts that can't control themselves or are a risk to others do need to be separated from the troop.

As for lone scout, I always question the value of it.  Scout's value is in working with other scouts.  Scouting is about community and developing connections.  At some point, lone scout sounds more like getting rank than getting value.

2 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I am just a CC trying to walk a fine line ...

You can provide friendly views to the SM, but at some point, you have to salute that the SM is the SM.

1 hour ago, 5thGenTexan said:

thats great, but I can't make there be more weekends in a month.

Monthly camping is the ideal; not a hard rule.  12 months a year is rare.  10 out of 12 months is outstanding.  7 to 9 months a year is good.  2 to 3 would be a warning sign.  

Also, it's how you count the outings.  Camp in at the charter org?  One night?  Some months with two campouts in one month (some scouts go to one, some to another).  ... I'd worry less about the number and more about holes in the calendar where the scouts could be active.

There is no meaningful scouting without camping and the associated adventures.  Scouting is building character by being outside. 

You can't require camping, but why be in scouting if you don't learn to love the core activities.  It would be like being on a football team, but not wanting to be on the field.

Schedule separation between your high adventure and the routine summer camp.   Many scouts will want to do both.  Many will want to brag about their pending or completed adventure.  Our troop often did something like ...   June = High Adventure.  July = BSA Summer Camp.   August = Troop summer camp.

10 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

Seems that the word "consecutive" would disqualify counting the canoe trip as non-long term camping.  Unless they spent a night in a hard structure then you might be able to count three days on either side.

On 11/24/2022 at 9:08 AM, InquisitiveScouter said:

* A "long-term camp" is one consisting of at least six consecutive days and five nights of resident camping. A "short-term camp" is anything less than that.

BSA rules set the tone without addressing all twists and turns.  A wise scouter once said you can't write concisely and still handle every possible nuanced twist.  Leaders do need to interpret.  It would be automatic if it was less than six nights, explicitly in the published rule.  What about "resident"?  Setup / tear down each night is not a resident camp.  So not long term?  Further, your own camping site is usually not considered a "resident camp".  Resident camps are BSA run fixed location with fixed infrastructure sites.  State parks, river edge camps, etc are have never generally been called "resident camps".

Situations like this require a good leader to use wise, compassionate judgement.   And yes, we might reach different conclusions for different reasons.  It's up to the leader and the scout to work together to make a positive result.

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Love it; will do!

I fear that scouts sometimes are harder on themselves than others would be.  I fear that many of us would pass him if he's a good scout, but the scout might block himself.  

IMHO, you have a legitimate argument that the canoe trek was not a long-term as each night was a completely different camp site with setup and tear down.

12 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

... I am honestly dreading this. ...

Your outside.  With scouters.  It's not perfect, but celebrate being together and honoring new members.

3 hours ago, Armymutt said:

I think the post implies that he keeps "a" hand in his pocket - probably the left one.  Sets a bad example, but not quite as bad as I believe you are envisioning.  I had to reread it the first time.

Yeah.  I'm probably reading more into that others.   One hand in pocket while other is up is common.  I eas reading it as two hands not up.  

Probably best I start stepping away.  I just don't spend enough time in scouting anymore.

18 hours ago, Calion said:

... SPL responsibilities ... keeping a hand in his pocket while leading the Pledge, Oath, and Law, ...

I meant to mention in my previous post.  I'm pretty lenient most of the time.  I'm more concerned with active and program than formalities.  BUT, this is a hard show stopper for me and is something that is immediately fixed.  If the SPL won't put his hand up for oath and law ... and especially the Pledge ... I'd remove the scout as SPL.  He's setting a bad example.  That's one of the most important roles of the SPL:  to set an example.  I'd immediately talk to the SPL at the next appropriate moment and talk about offending others by not showing respect to the Pledge.  Setting an example.  etc, etc.  ... IMHO, it's one of the few places that I do take a hard line.  We can argue about holding elbow at 90 degrees.  BUT, you don't keep your hands in your pocket during the pledge. Period.

On 11/8/2022 at 8:42 AM, curious_scouter said:

They picked the cheapie LED ones, so we got them for $5 each at Walmart this week and a pack of batteries that will likely last us the rest of this year for less than two propane splitters.  They fit easily in the patrol boxes and ... they really do a fine job of lighting the work space.

Problem solved?  Time will tell

Wow.  Times change !!!!   LED lanterns are a game changer.  I never would have guessed LED lanterns would be a patrol box choice.  BUT, it makes sense.   Times change.

15 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

@fred8033Very sound, well reasoned, and nuanced advice. 

Thanks.  I really question my advice these days as I don't spend all my life in scouting anymore.     I'll be moving onto my next journey soon.  I think that journey will be the health nut phase.

On 11/9/2022 at 3:15 PM, yknot said:

The problem with everyone getting credit for everything is a program problem that needs to be addressed by the committee with the SM and the program leadership team right down to any SPLs or senior scouts who may also be doing signoffs. 

Absolutely agree !  

On 11/11/2022 at 9:35 PM, Jameson76 said:

Focus is program, outings, etc.  I enjoy mentoring the youth, seeing them succeed.  Helping them deliver program to their peers.  Way way back in the day did some district stuff.  Really unfulfilling and felt most meetings were checking a box for some meaningless District set of goals.

I've begun to believe those that volunteer at district level tend to hurt their own scout units.  Not all, but a good number.  Distractions.  Confused priorities.  Mixed signals.  A person only has so much time.  Time to work a full time professional job to earn money.  Marriage and their own kids.  Unit volunteering.  District volunteering.  As we've seen scouting affect marriages, I've begun to accept that there is a feedback loop going on also at the district to unit level.  There are some advantages having a district volunteer in your scouting unit, but there are also big risks going the other way.

6 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Application clearly has Requirement 7.  Look at the end of the form...

LOL ... You're right.  I'm so used to stopping at the lines above the final signatures.  I did not see the word was moved below.  

I sit corrected.    ... I still stay with my original assertion.  Eagle rank application is not required, but you can't earn Eagle without it.

6 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

It is...

2. "...List on your Eagle Scout Rank Application..."

Between 6 & 7...

"In preparation for your board of review, prepare and attach to your Eagle Scout Rank Application a statement of your ambitions and life purpose ..."

Although, I'd be the first to support articulating more clearly as a requirement.

 

A well thought out answer.  I need to find when #2 had the words "on your Eagle Scout Rank Application" added.  It would be within the last 12 years.  The handbook I just grabbed does not say that.  As you point out, it is in BSA's eagle rank requirements statement though.  Hmmm...

This is about BSA documentation biting us again.  Someone added words without thinking about the circular requirement and how all the piece parts work together.  It's circular because most scouts don't complete the Eagle rank application until they think they are done completing the requirements, but they can't complete the application without filling out the Eagle rank application.  ...  Worse.  By putting it in requirement #2, now many scouts for years have not been in explicit compliance with completing the first six eagle rank requirements before they turn 18.  A large number of Eagle applications are completed after the scout turns 18. 

BSA has long had the position that the Eagle rank application is not required to be filled out before the scout turns 18.   That's always been clear.  Page 12 on Eagle rank app timing.   https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/advancement_news/2014_april-may.pdf?_ga=2.50163238.1600529180.1668055739-2140547674.1658366459&_gl=1*18mfjm7*_ga*MjE0MDU0NzY3NC4xNjU4MzY2NDU5*_ga_20G0JHESG4*MTY2ODA1NTczOS41LjEuMTY2ODA1NzA2Mi42MC4wLjA.

I will be sticking with my original assertion though.  Eagle rank application is not required, but you can't earn Eagle without it.   This is a BSA's documentation issue.

• Nuanced argument ... A massive amount of Eagle scouts don't fill out the Eagle rank application before they turn 18.  So if Eagle rank app is a requirement, then those scouts have aged out and it's too late.
• Inconsistent requirements / documentation
  • The Eagle rank application now only has six requirements.  EBOR is not listed as a requirement.
    • Surprising as like I was caught that #2 now includes Eagle rank app, the rank application itself doesn't list the EBOR as a requirement.  
  • BSA rank says #7 EBOR  as "requirement" https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Eagle_Rank_Requirements_2018.pdf
  • BSA Eagle application only has 6 requirements.    https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/512-728_WB_fillable.pdf
• "Between 6 & 7" is a callout; not a requirement.  It's listed before #7 (EBOR) and it's definitely not part of #6 (SMC)  
• Intention ... BSA rank application is more consistent with intention as EBOR is not in the control of the scout and often can't get it done before they turn 18.
  • Eagle rank requirements don't include the Eagle app, but you can't earn Eagle without it.  I say this as all Eagle rank requirements need to be completed before the scout turns 18.  

... now this is a fun discussion ... 

It says "unit leader".  If the SM has delegated blue cards and other ranks stuff, talk on phone with the existing SM or CC.  If okay, sign and submit.  If you want to help the council registrar (or person who processes the paperwork), insert a note about that this is temporary or that a transition is happening.  That would be nice, but not necessarily required. 

Keep the paperwork moving ... for many reasons.

Also ... requirements are in the BS handbook.  Eagle app is not a requirement, but you can't achieve Eagle without it.