fred8033

2 hours ago, fred8033 said:

... EBORs do not exist...

Late at night.  Forgot this channel is not just about EBORs.  It just came up because of comment about Eagle scouts not having skills.  But the point is the same.  BORs are not the point to fix advancement failures.  BORs are the time to find out the troop is having trouble.  

I do 100% agree the advancement program needs drastic redesign.  I'd be up for something significantly different.  ...  The most fundamental part I'd like to see is the scout-facing advancement requirements be at least half the number of words.  

9 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

... This is the very reason there are Eagle Scouts who can't light a lantern, or heaven forbid they had to change a mantle.  ...

Fully disagree.  EBORs do not exist to change advancement expectations at the end after years of failure by troops and many, many adults.  I agree that every Eagle scout should be able to light a lantern and do basic 1st class scouting skills.  I disagree that it's okay to try to enforce it right at the end.  ... 

EBORs are more of a friendly conversation similar to the SMC, but done by other adults.  

Now ... if you want to assert all BORs should be youth or non-troop.  We can talk.  If you want to say the advancement program, shoudl be drastically different, fine.  I just disagree that the EBOR as now positioned can do anything meaningful to fix the advancement.  

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

And sometimes it is not. 

Agreed.  I'm writing from the point that I am comfortable now with units that shut down.  We should not feel bad or guilty or a failure.  It's just that the magic mix is gone.  Primary concern is giving our scouts (and our sons) the best scouting experience possible.  That might mean letting small troops close.  Not the right answer for everyone.  

On 10/26/2022 at 7:27 PM, wearrepair said:

Program is what drive troop size. Scout run but you can push a bit. Something going on as scouts arrive, crisply executed meeting, parents around to help if asked, lots of outdoor fun events, patrol activities, pride. (Sorry getting carried away but if your troop has a good program, you will have a good troop.)

We (adults) can get so caught up on if we are doing it right that we get distracted from whether the scouts find the troop fun and meaningful place to be.  That means program.  ... Yes we want scout-led, effective PLCs, teaching leadership, etc, but program drives the health of the unit.

8 hours ago, Owls_are_cool said:

... It comes down to relationships with packs or other youth groups. Since there is really no replacements for me as SM and for most of the committee, I began the process of moving all my scouts to other troops in my city and my troop will fold at the end of the year....

I think this is well stated, well thought-out and responsible.  Don't force a fight with a bad situation.  If another troop is doing well, you can be serving your scouts well by getting them into a larger, healthier troop.  It's not an easy or automatic transition, but it's often the best choice.

5 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

My council is down 60% in cubs and 35% in scouts. Pretty alarming.

Yeah.  The 60% down in cubs will follow and track to 60% down in troops.  The peaks and valleys can be tracked as they age.  The 911 attack happened during recruiting.  We could see that in numbers for years. 

7 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

I wish that the youth were involved in the Boards of review in Troops as well.  IMHO

After years of my arguing, I'm flipping sides.   I'd like to see youth run/staffed BORs too.  Troop adults get much value out of the BORs.  It's often uncomfortable and clumsy.  But, there could be lots of value having scouts listen to one of their own give them feedback.  Perhaps one or two adults sitting at a distance, but within hearing range.  It opens conversations between the scouts.  It creates connections.  It also would help an 11 year old feel comfortable talking to a 16/17 year old.  etc, etc, etc.  

I will respect, salute and fulfil the GTA rules, but I'd like to see it changed. 

Never encountered the issue, but then again we never used the lamp at the same time as the stove, etc.  

Our challenge was always too many things close to each other and too many hoses coming off near each other.  The really bad was when multiple patrols tried to tap off the same large propane tank.  If you use a large tank, still have one per patrol so they can camp and cook separately.

Because of that, I prefer the small propane tanks for unit camping.  

But then again, I prefer white gas because of energy density and cold weather use.

17 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Agreed, but I do see it as my job as a Unit Leader to ask the Scout some questions to determine if they actually completed the badge.

Not a retest, but a confirmation of completing the requirements as written.

This is the dirty underbelly of Scouting, IMHO...  If you peel the onion back, I'd bet you find many, many badges are not completed according to the requirements... especially those acquired at Summer Camps.

I have gotten to the point that I do not really peel the onion back, but just ask the questions to provoke thought in the Scout about his personal integrity.

Agreed.  The MB program is not highly consistent.  I'm not sure it  needs to be.  I have less trouble with summer camp than others as I'm more concerned about giving the scout new, unique, growing experiences.  Others treat jumping the MB requirements as the key point of the game.  ... It's probably somewhere in between.  

Then again, I don't think the leadership or troop program or camping expectations are very consistent either.  Scouting has a huge variance away from average.   

It's one reason I'd almost rather have rank reflect number of nights camping / hiking, etc.  IMHO, there is little reason an Eagle scout doesn't have 100 nights of camping.  I'd be happy with an Eagle scout at 75 nights.  IMHO, an Eagle scout should never have less than 30 nights of camping.  Heck, I'd expect a first class scout to have 20+ nights of camping ... or (20 - 2*(number of overnight storms)) ... LOL.

6 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Not quite...   GTA  7.0.4.7 Limited Recourse for Unearned Merit Badges ...

That does not 100% map.  Even if the unit leader signs, the unit can still apply the above GTA 7.0.4.7.  GTA 7.0.4.7 exists to give the unit flexibility to correct a bad situation.  Very similar to the BOR discussion in this thread. 

My point is it is absolutely wrong to think / treat the unit leader signatures as approving the badge.  That is absolutely not the point of the unit leader signing the badge.   

The point is:  The MBC approves the badge; not the unit leader.

48 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

... mistakes made by two adults (counselor, and leader who signed off the badge at the end of the process.)

Minor clarification.  It's just the MBC signature that defines the badge as done.  The unit leader signature is just evidence that the badge was handed over to the unit.  Proof that "hey, I gave you the merit badge card.  I have proof."  ... it's not confirming the badge was earned.  That's fully in the hands of the merit badge counselor.

15 minutes ago, jcousino said:

back to my original point what does the BOR have the power to do.

Think of it not as "power" and more as "flexibility".   There are too many possible situations to write clean, concise rules that handle everything.  So, BSA documents the recommended approach and mindset.  ... From there, the BOR can address scout misbehavior, parents abusing the advancement system, etc, etc, etc.

If the BOR uses good judgement, the appeal levels will backup and support the BOR. 

If not, then the BOR can easily be overridden to support the scout.  

15 minutes ago, jcousino said:

can a scout be a member in two troops?

Recently answered here.  Short answer yes.
https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2022/08/26/ask-us-anything-we-answer-some-of-your-most-frequently-asked-questions-3/#:~:text=From the BSA's registration guidebook,far away from each other.

If this is related to this situation, I'd really question the scout and the adults involved.  I'd really, really, really hate seeing the troops pitted against one another.  Scout active in one troop, but trouble with getting advanced.  So, they work advancement in the other troop.  IMHO, this is when adults need to start talking and working together.  ...  Perhaps BSA should emphasize rank advancement happens within your primary registration.  I know I'd be really upset with a secondary registration troop that promoted the rank of a scout primarily registered in my troop ... especially if our troop was having issues with the scout.

31 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

From the Guide to Advancement page 52: ... and decide whether the requirements for the rank have been fulfilled. ...

Yes.  BOR has that option.  IMHO, a scout not participating in a BOR can and probably does trigger suspending the BOR.  ... The key is it's to be extremely rare that a BOR faces saying NO the requirements have not been fulfilled.  Missing badge?  Short on POR time ?  All badge signed by the dad?  ... The BOR triggering this condition is to be very rare.

I'm on withdrawal.  Any news / update?  

8 hours ago, qwazse said:

I'm gonna tweak 'schiff's observation a little because folks these days equate adventure with "big ticket" scouting.

Yep.  100%.  Adventures does not mean expensive.  Perhaps it's a rarely used local/regional spot (museum, park, etc) that has a related open area where you can also grill hot dogs for lunch.  I view adventure as getting away from "meetings" to do something.  Be active.  Often, the adventure is waiting to be discovered.  

3 hours ago, yknot said:

4-H teaches, according to them, about 500,000 youth per year. My local experience with it is that it is generally run out of local recreation and gun clubs that run programs all year long and have competitive shooting teams. From what I've seen, it is on a higher level and more closely managed than what I've seen at scout camps. It's a 4-H club with volunteer leaders, but it is generally overseen or run in consultation with professionals. 

Thank you.  I had to find the reference.  I was surprised.

https://4-hshootingsports.org/#:~:text=Each year%2C 4-H teaches,boys and girls each year.

7 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

There are others. These come to mind, I don't know about the YMCA.

National 4-H Shooting Program

Civilian Marksmanship Youth Program

Scholastic Shooting Sports

American Legion Junior Shooting Sports

U.S. Army JROTC

Royal Rangers National Shooting Sports Program (NSSP)

USA Shooting (Olympics team)

 

I'd like to see numerical comparison (seriously).  Almost every scout that goes to summer camp experiences the shooting sports programs.   I'm not aware of 4-H having shooting ranges or a broadly offered program.  

I appreciate your post.  Thank you.

9 hours ago, yknot said:

... it is still one of the preferred firearms that have been involved in high profile cases. ...  Even among shooting families, you can go all the way to the Olympics in  youth marksmanship and never encounter one. They are not used. I've had any number of parents emphatically clarifying that their youth use different weapons for their competitions and practices. 

Preferred?  It's actually not.  Handguns first.  Second is an AR-15 styled riffle.  The AK47 riffle is an outlier ... from what I've read.   Depending on "mass shooting" definition, you will see it's one use every several years to less used.  As of May 2022, this noted a previous use from 2019.  Rest were handguns or AR-15 styled.   https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2022-05-27/mass-shooters-exploited-gun-laws-loopholes-before-carnage ...

Perhaps, it's better said that "assault styled" weapons are the preferred firearm.   But that is not useful either as it's way, way overly broad as it can include many handguns today too.    

Not used in competitions and practices?  ... From what I've read ... it's because the AK-47 is not known for accuracy.  Marksmanship and competitions would not use an AK-47 gun.

If the teaching moment is awareness of styles of guns, teh AK-47 seems appropriate.  World-wide the AK-47 is more common than AR-15 ... from what I've read.  

10 hours ago, yknot said:

Interesting opinion piece. I'm not anti firearms for youth but I no longer think BSA has the organizational competence, consistently delivered across the board, to oversee a youth shooting sports program -- along with a few other things. 

My experience is BSA does a solid job. Perhaps, the Guide to Safe Shooting and it's implementation needs to be revisited yet again to remove remaining quality control variances that can allow incidents to happen.  ... Perhaps  should 1st graders be allowed to use any type of bow and arrow or bb-gun?   I'm not sure.  

Sadly, BSA is the only national level organization that broadly offers a youth shooting sports activity.  I doubt the YMCA will expand to pick up the responsibility.  

Kids benefit from physical exposure to guns and how to safely handle them.  It removes the mystic and teaches knowledge and responsibilities. 

22 hours ago, jscouter1 said:

Hello forum! It’s been a while since I have posted on here but a lot has happened since then and I am again faced with a dilemma that I can not figure out myself. As a preface for this you should know my troop does things a little differently and (among other things) runs their own high adventure programs, this means we will never use a BSA high adventure like Philmont or Northern Tier. It has come to my realization that I would like to visit Philmont in the short amount of time I have left as a scout ( 4-6 years depending on how you look at it). Now the reason I am posting on here is that when November rolls around enrollment for NAYLE at Philmont starts, while NAYLE sounds amazing a Rayado trek does as well. Any input helps!

Any SM worth their salt would support a scout that comes motivated with information and a plan.  Research.  Plan.  Promote.  Make it happen.  That's huge and is what scouting is about.  ... If you are excited about it, then find a way to make it happen.  I'm betting you can find one or more adults (parents??) that would be willing to support your efforts.  

10 hours ago, BearsBeetsBSG said:

Admittedly, she didn’t want or campaign for the position. She inherited it because the other eligible Scout aged out. 

IMHO, this is the telling statement.  SM should have a SMC and ask about the role.  If the SPL is not interested, then look for another.  Or you don't even need an SPL with a small troop.  IMHO, SPL does not have to go to NYLT or another training course or even be a XXX year or XXX rank scout.  SM can coach the new SPL.  They key is to find the scout that wants to be SPL.  

My advice feels like a broken record.  Find a solution that works for your unit, but get the troop active and doing interesting things.  That is what drives excited scouts. 

On 10/15/2022 at 10:29 AM, yknot said:

It's not too late for wreaths if you have a local supplier. If you can find a local garden center or nursery to work with you, you could still do it. One of our local farm stands sold us wreaths at wholesale one year. We got various donations of bows and did pretty well. I seem to remember it all got organized last minute in October with sales in early to mid November. 

Strictly speaking, no it's not too late.  ... depending on vendor ... To do it well, it needs planning in August/September.  Pack hands out sales materials before October 1st.  Scouts selling in October.  Order placed with vendor around Oct 31st to Nov 5th; delivery just after thanksgiving.  

BUT ... maybe you can find a vendor with a great on-line sales site.  THEN, your pack can advertise via Facebook, twitter, emails, etc and people order directly from the site and your pack gets a cut.  I've seen that happen recently too.  

So, it might not be too late, but it's a razors edge close to too late.

Wishing you the best.  

Welcome

• A charter org willing to financially support a cub pack is a very rare thing.  For any and every check you get, be very, very thankful.  
• Budgeting is a great idea.  I always used my own spreadsheet.  Find an existing template to start.
  • https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/510-278_wb.pdf
  • https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/xls/13-273.xls ... excel spreadsheet version
  • https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2017/04/05/create-budget-pack-troop-crew/ ... good article
  • Google.  You will find lots of great examples
  • Plan to have some carry over money to keep the pack going.  For example, never drop checking below XXXX ($500??)
  • Per-scout or per-family charge for some items (camps, special activities, special awards).
  • It's okay to not buy or do everything.  Example - Pack doesn't have to buy the cub books or scarfs or belt loops.  Maybe pack pays for key awards, but not the extras.  
  • Ten years ago, our pack would spend somewhere between $180 and $250 per scout per year (spreading all costs including adult registration costs) ... BUT that was before registration prices increased.  Our spend changed depending on how much we raised.   Idea was we spent funds raised on the current scouts with enough preserved to keep the pack an on-going concern.  We charged $60 or more and raised the rest.  
  • BE THRIFTY.  Look for free events.  Look for cost savings.  Pot-luck events.  Cheap spaces to use.  
  • I wanted to ask about $300 behind ... but $300 is a small amount these days.  
• Questions
  • Is your COR offering a one-time additional funding?  Or on-going support?
  • Have your families donated to help the pack?   (my opinion) It's important to have the families have some amount of financial skin in the game.
  • Do your leaders help support their own registration?  ...  Some units have the unit pay for the key, key roles.  But additional registrations are paid by the adults.  ... This concept may have changed as BSA registration expectations have changed. 
  • Have you considered fundraising other than popcorn?  Wreaths are probably too late.  Christmas candy?  Other?  

I'm often wondering about costs these days.  In the past, we could easily spread the cost of 10 registered leaders across 50 or 60 cubs; especially as adult registration cost was cheap; $7 to $10 to $14 to $24 per adult.   But adult registration cost was cheap and few adults were needed.  Now, it feels like 50% of the adults would have to be registered and cost is $66 or more per adult.  BSA membership now feels financially prohibitive.  

Interesting breakdown ... https://scoutsmarts.com/scouting-costs-registration-gear-uniforms-fees/

5 hours ago, FireStone said:

If I make any kind of deal with him about it, I think I'd like it to be that he completes a full year before making any decisions. Even if he decides to take a break or leave it completely, I'd like him to make that decision based on having experienced more of what it's all about.

Lots of great advice above.  Your response sounds reasonable.  

I'd also recommend to keep watching.  Kids at his age feel lots of pressure.  

Don't push too much formalism onto the scouts.  Celebrate their planning.

Your job is a loose one.  Is committee / COR comfortable with their plans?  ...  i.e. no sky diving with paint ball guns?  camping on Dec 25th?  ... conflicts.  safety.  budget.  ... Beyond that, your job is to help the troop infrastructure support the scout's plans.  CC & SM should partner to decide how and how much to support the scouts.   Sometimes committee reserves and pays for camping sites; buys more tents; coordinates cars; publishes schedules; processes advancement.  Other troops, scouts do a lot of that. 

SM & CC should work to find the right balance to make the scout's program shine.