fgoodwin

I just found a reference to the Cub Scouts in an old "Calvin & Hobbes" comic strip from Dec, 1987: http://www.transmogrifier.org/ch/comics/list.cgi/87/12 Check the 12-2, 12-3 and 12-4 strips! I found some more at: http://www.transmogrifier.org/ch/comics/list.cgi/86/05?page=2 Check out 5-19 to 5-22. Does anyone know of other mentions of Cub Scouting in "Calvin & Hobbes" or any other comics?(This message has been edited by fgoodwin)

uz2bnowl, allow me to quote the description of the "Issues & Politics" forum:In answer to many requests, we established a separate forum for these topics. Those not interested can skip this forum instead of spending time reading unwanted messages to identify content.Now, given that description, it would appear the message was properly posted here. As the description suggests, those who are not interested can skip the forum (or the post). Fred Goodwin

Boy Scout Gets Knife Lodged In Brain http://kutv.com/topstories/local_story_356200328.html An incredible and un-suspecting accident leaves a Utah Boy Scout just inches from death when he was stabbed right between his eyes. Jeff Jaeger spoke to Kevin Coulter and tells 2News how this was a truly freak accident. While raking leaves for a Boy Scout event, one of the leaders flung a knife from his hand while trying to catch another scout who had tripped. It was dark, it was like 8:30 and there was a light and I saw it flash before it hit me, said Kevin. The blade landed in between his frontal lobes. It was 2 millimeters away from hitting a major blood vessel in his brain. Kevin's doctors told him it was sheer luck where the knife hit. That's the sinuses that it went through and that I guess is where the brain lobe is right there, said Kevin pointing to an X-Ray. It was a freak accident in every way. Few people can admit they've seen anything like it, a 1 inch blade through someone's skull. That's the best spot you know, if you're going to have a knife in your head, said Kevin. It amazingly wasnt as painful as it looks; he says he just felt pressure. In all, Kevin's kept a light heart about the whole situation. He got to miss out on a few weeks of school and yes, he walked away with the knife as a souvenir.

For those of you who wear a tie with the BSA shirt, how do you deal with the roll-collar? I've tried starching and ironing a crease in it, but that helps only slightly. Then the collar looks weird when I'm *not* wearing a tie.

Homeless boys find opportunities in Scouts http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051215/NEWS/512150371 http://tinyurl.com/ct4am Teen earns place in Hall of Fame of Caring Americans for founding Wilmington pack By JENNIFER BROOKS News Journal Washington Bureau 12/15/2005 WILMINGTON -- Anyone who has ever wondered whether one person really can make a difference in the world should drop by the Ministry of Caring on Tuesday nights, when Cub Scout Pack 506 meets. "I promise," the Scouts chanted in unison, "to do my duty to God and my country, to help other people and obey the law of the pack. ... " They trailed off, exchanging mystified looks as they tried to remember what came next. "With liberty and justice for all," one boy burst out. It wasn't the traditional Cub Scout pledge. But this isn't a traditional Cub Scout pack. The Cubs scattered, giggling, to work tables piled high with planks of wood, power sanders, hammers, nails and safety goggles. They were making Christmas mangers to take home -- to whatever space they call home this week. Cub Scout Pack 506 may be the only troop in the nation for homeless children. Its members, who range in age from 7 to 11 and numbered 15 this week, live in Wilmington-area shelters, temporary apartments, condemned buildings and even cars. They move from shelter to shelter and school to school, unable to hold on to friends or join ordinary after-school groups. Until a Scout named Greg Sweeney came up with an idea that changed everything. "I wanted to give these kids the stuff they don't normally have," said Sweeney, who was 12 years old, barely out of Cub Scouts himself, when he had his big idea. Already a volunteer at Ministry of Caring, a Wilmington nonprofit that serves the city's homeless, Sweeney suggested that somebody ought to start a Cub Scout pack for the boys who had nothing to do and nowhere to go in the evenings. Good idea, he was told. Why don't you do it? "Why? Because I'm 12, that's why!" Sweeney remembers responding. But with the help of his parents, his friends and a committed group of adult volunteers, he founded Pack 506 and kept it running for the next five years. All that hard work earned Sweeney, now an 18-year-old college student and Eagle Scout, a place in the Hall of Fame for Caring Americans in Washington, D.C. The Caring Institute, a nonprofit chaired by former Sen. Bob Dole, annually chooses adults and teens who promote the values of caring, integrity and public service. "I don't know if I should get this award," he told the crowd at his induction ceremony earlier this month. "I think I've gotten more out of this experience than the Scouts have." But the Scouts seem to be getting a lot, too. "I like the atmosphere here," said 14-year-old Rasaan Gouldbourne, smiling around the noisy, sawdust-filled meeting room. "I like the projects we do. I like participating. It's genuine here. A lot of the people here, they're nice." At the next table, 7-year-old Tyriq Bernard carefully signed his name in orange marker on his wooden creation. It was the first thing, he said, that he'd ever made with his own hands. Beside him, Billy Jervey sat meticulously sanding the wooden planks the Cubs were turning into mangers. He designed the winning car in the pack's annual mini-Soap Box Derby for the past two years, and his mother said he's now dreaming of a career as an engineer or a designer. "It's been a great opportunity for him," said Stephanie Jervey. "It gives these kids an opportunity to do the sorts of things inner-city kids don't usually get to do. It gets them out of the inner-city mentality that there are things they can't do." Neither the Boy Scouts of America nor the Delmarva Boy Scout Council could say for certain that Pack 506 is the only troop of homeless Scouts in the nation. Always there for them Sweeney spent hours every week planning Cub Scout meetings; arranging hikes, field trips and guest speakers; recruiting volunteers; tracking his Cubs and making sure they had a ride to each week's meeting. He lined up donors who provided uniforms and scout handbooks and made sure all the trips would be free. "I like Greg because when I first came here, he showed me around, helped me," said 11-year-old Khayree Johnson, who has been scouting since he was 7. When families had to move from one temporary home to the next, Sweeney helped carry boxes. When it was time for the boys to graduate to Boy Scouts, he lined up sponsors to defray the cost of new uniforms. "If it wasn't for [Greg] and the Scouts, I don't know what we would have done," said Mary Malandruccolo of Claymont, who fell ill, fell behind in her rent payments and found herself living out of a car with her grandson, Anthony, then 10 years old. "It was so rough. I cried a lot." Inspiring others Two years later, Anthony is still scouting, and making plans to be an Eagle Scout, just like Greg. "He heard you even get a hand-written letter from the president when you make Eagle Scout," his mother said. "He likes that idea." Sweeney started college this year and handed off leadership of the troop to two younger Scouts and the rest of the volunteers. "A lot of people ask themselves, 'Is there anything I can do about the great problems of the world like hunger, poverty?' " Sweeney said. "Well, the answer is yes."

Muslim Scouting is part of a national trend http://www.sltrib.com/faith/ci_3296182 Utah's first Muslim Girl Scout troop gives members a place to gain confidence, make friends with similar values and rack up the badges By Jessica Ravitz The Salt Lake Tribune Salt Lake Tribune Other adolescent girls might have cowered when they noticed the stares in their school hallways. Aisha Hassan decided to embrace them. "That's right, look at me," she remembers thinking, throwing her arms out and flashing a big, bright smile - befitting the movie star she pretended she was. But even Aisha, a now-17-year-old Somalian who immigrated to Utah by way of Pakistan five years ago, has had her insecure moments. No way around it, she's different. Her culture, religion, skin color and - not least of all - the way she dresses set her apart. Being Murray High School's only Muslim girl who wears "hijab," the traditional head covering, can take a toll. "Sometimes you need others to help you," she says. "Others to tell you they feel the same way." That support has now cropped up in, of all places, an American tradition: the Girl Scouts of the USA. Troop No. 496, about 30 members strong, is Utah's first Muslim Girl Scout troop. Officially launched this past fall, the group accommodates Seniors, like Aisha, all the way down to Brownies. Some are immigrants, others American-born. And though their roots reach out to places as far-flung as Bangladesh, Iraq, Laos and Egypt, their common faith brings them together. "We are living out our little adventure," says troop leader Shazia Faizi, who hopes the experience will empower the girls. "I want them to have confidence in their religion, confidence in themselves as women." It's their first official meeting since before the holy month of Ramadan, and the girls gather in a circle to recite the Girl Scout pledge. But before they do this, they must first recognize something higher. "All praise is for Allah alone, Lord of this world, Master of the day of judgment," Ayesha Khan, 8, begins in Arabic, reciting from memory the first chapter of the Quran. Then together, with the three middle fingers of their right hands raised, they recite: "On my honor, I will try to serve Allah and my country, to help people at all times, and to live by the Girl Scout Law." Some know each other from Sunday school or from the Iqra Academy of Utah, a private, parochial school in West Valley City. But for members scattered throughout the Salt Lake Valley's public schools, Girl Scout meetings act as a grounding mechanism. The troop, endorsed by the Greater Salt Lake Islamic Society, offers a venue where they can learn from and fortify each other, maintain their values and enjoy the opportunities and activities offered by an American institution. "We incorporate Islam into our troop meetings, and we get to meet new Muslim people," Hanna Omar, 13, explains. "And you get to do everything others get to do, so it's just as much fun for us as it is for anyone else." Although the national organization does not keep track of troops based on religion, a quick search online shows that Troop No. 496 is part of a trend. Groups like it are taking hold across the nation, in states as various as Michigan, Virginia, California and Oklahoma. In fact, a second troop, reserved for Seniors, also has formed locally. And Muslim Scouting isn't just for girls. The Boy Scouts of America report 112 troops, including one in Utah, that are chartered to Muslim schools or mosques. Hanna, whose parents are Palestinian and Greek, just started "to cover," or wear "hijab," this year. She sits with the older troop members, as they meet in the Girl Scouts of Utah offices, and talks about the transition. People who didn't know her were, at first, "freaked out to talk to me," she laughs. The others, who understand too well, laugh with her. "But my friends are, like, kickin'. They're awesome. They get it," adds Hanna, who sports Converse high tops bearing American stars and stripes. Across the room, Brownies giggle, write or draw in their journals about the Eid Festival, and dutifully recite a "dua," or prayer, before eating their Little Debbie snack cakes. Some of them tug on their Brownie sashes, making sure their new badges - one for the day camp they attended, another for a presentation to the Girl Scout board - are visible to visitors. As a recent service project, the troop gathered donated items for Katrina evacuees and Somalian refugees. Today they'll select fabrics for the fashion show they plan to put on, which will highlight tunics, skirts and head coverings made by troop members. Faizi, the group's leader, hopes by forming this new community, the girls will grow up with a network of friends they can talk to and with models to follow. "I was lucky because I had cousins my age to talk to," she says. As the Juniors scrapbook, the older girls flip through a book called Express It, a Girl Scout workbook meant to prompt discussion. They make up typical "soap operas" played out in school, rank the "top 10" challenges facing teens today, and - of course - turn to talk about boys. "Do you feel left out?" Faizi asks them. "Yeah, I do. A lot of my friends have boyfriends," says Amna Sial, 17. "Islam doesn't stop you from liking someone." Instead of fussing over appearances and worrying about crushes, however, these girls want and say they earn respect. By guarding their faith, Faizi says they are freed up to focus on more important matters - their studies, their aspirations, the types of women they hope to be. "Hijab," she explains, is the tangible reminder. "I want them to feel that it's part of their skin," Faizi says. But sometimes girls just need to act like girls, to let down their hair and bounce around in fuzzy slippers. On a recent Saturday afternoon, the troop had a pajama party - replete with makeup, curling irons and a table spilling over with junk food. Aisha, her "hijab" off, strokes and admires her long hair in a hand-held mirror, even as she says what she holds to be true: "Beauty is not everything. . . . What matters is how you are from the inside." Along with her plaid flannel pajama bottoms, she wears a bright T-shirt. Across the front, it reads: "Heart Breaker." A boom-box blares music from a favorite Bollywood film. Khadija Nawaz, 8, doesn't miss a beat as she re-enacts the dance steps from the movie. Older girls, many wearing body glitter on their arms and cheeks, whirl around her. Not everyone in the troop, it turns out, is Muslim. Among those wearing gobs of lip gloss are Sadie Fell, 6, and her older sister Mariah, 11, members of the LDS Church. Their aunt, Evangelynn Al-Daraji - who converted to Islam and has two daughters involved with the Girl Scout troop - says her nieces take part because the values taught are good ones and the experience exposes them to new cultures and traditions. And if they pick up a few Arabic words, no harm there. For three hours, the large room they've reserved at Sugar House's Sprague Library is a flurry of girlish activity: pink pajamas, purple pillows and freshly painted fingernails. But as the evening wanes and the girls begin to clean up, they remember who they are. They put on "hijab," step onto blankets - laid out to face Mecca - and bow down for evening prayers. Even Sadie, the 6-year-old Mormon, dons a blue "hijab" that's far too big for her little face. Peering up at her 11-year-old cousin, Talitha, Sadie moves her lips with a mischievous grin, pretending she, too, knows verses from the Quran. The room empties, and Aisha waits in the hallway for her siblings. She has stepped into a long skirt, which covers her pajama bottoms. Her "hijab" now hides the "Heart Breaker" T-shirt and her newly coifed, luxurious hair. Stepping back into the outside world, this is the young woman she is and everything she wants to be. [photo 1 caption] Anusha Imran, 10, above, presents the U.S. flag during the Eid Festival ceremony in November at the Salt Lake City Main Library marking the end of Ramadan. (Danny Chan La/The Salt Lake Tribune) [photo 2 caption] Nuura Al-Daraji, 4, top, joins in for the Girl Scout Promise during the Eid Festival ceremony in November at the Salt Lake City Main Library marking the end of Ramadan. (Danny Chan La/The Salt Lake Tribune) [photo 3 caption] Brownie girl scouts join a circle of friendship to open their meeting. The Brownies are, from left, Afrah Mohasin, Khadija Nawaz, Ayesha Khan, and Shahnur Said. (Trent Nelson/The Salt Lake Tribune) --- Contact Jessica Ravitz at jravitz@ sltrib.com or 801-257-8776. Send comments to religioneditor@sltrib.com

P_S, I agree with your overall assessment that video games, in and of themselves, are not a universal evil. I think the bigger issue is one of physical activity vs. inactivity. Schools are increasingly crowding out PE and recess in order to add "fluff", to the detriment of our childrens' health. One reason I have my son in Scouting is so he doesn't lose touch with the outdoors. He's loved camping ever since he was a Tiger -- I want him to keep feeling that way. But he can and will spend all weekend indoors playing video games or watching cartoons on TV if we as parents let him. Instead, I make sure he's outside with me, mowing the lawn, or picking up after the dogs, or just being on his bike, riding up and down in the neighborhood with his buddies. We didn't have video games when we were kids, but we had different time sinks that kept us from being outdoors all the same: pin ball comes to mind, although I wasn't a big pin-ball fan; same for foos-ball (remember that?). So, while I can't be too hard on today's younger generation, lest I sound a hypocrite, I certainly will do my part to make sure my son stays physically active in the outdoors and not tied to a CRT screen.

I went camping last weekend with my son's troop; we got a polar bear patch because the temp got down to 24F on Saturday nite / Sunday morning. When I asked my son and the other boys if they enjoyed the campout, they all said yes, despite the cold weather. But on the 2-hour drive back home from Enchanted Rock, all they could talk about were video games, the new Xbox, which games they wanted for Christmas, etc. I don't think my son is as addicted as the girl in the story, but I certainly plan to share this story with him.

Girl Scouts will peddle less trans fat in cookies http://www.azstarnet.com/allheadlines/105736 By Lisa Gutierrez KNIGHT RIDDER NEWSPAPERS But do they still taste good? Customers will want to know as Girl Scouts around the nation start their annual cookie drive between now and early next year with new, healthier treats: cookies with zero trans fat. East of the Mississippi, Scouts have taken the villainous substance out of three of their most popular cookies: Thin Mints, Caramel deLites and Peanut Butter Patties. Two new cookies, the fudge-covered Thanks-A-Lot and reduced-fat Cartwheels, don't have trans fat, either. In the West, Tag-A-Longs and Lemon Coolers now have zero trans fat. Dominick San Angelo, development manager for the Saguaro Girl Scout Council, which spans Southern Arizona, expects more cookies to follow suit in coming years. In Tucson, Girl Scouts start taking orders in early January, and the cookies (still $4 a box) start arriving by mid-February. "The fact that five of them are trans-fat-free is big news to them," says Martha Singleton, spokeswoman for the Girl Scouts of Mid-Continent Council. By next year's drive, all of that council's Girl Scout cookies will be free of the fat that scientists now tell us is more harmful to our hearts than saturated fat. "I think our sales will go up because of it," said Dianne Brungardt, leader of two troops in Independence, Mo. "I hear every year that everyone's on a diet, and they love cookies, and they love Girl Scout cookies and want to help out with our programs, but they want something with reduced fat or something healthier." Girl Scout cookies join a parade of other foods, from Doritos to Goldfish crackers, that have been de-trans-fatted in anticipation of new FDA labeling requirements that go into effect Jan. 1. That's when foods containing trans fat must state amounts on the nutrition label. The rule is expected to affect 40 percent of the stuff on supermarket shelves, from breakfast cereal and snack crackers to candy and microwave popcorn. Trans fats - used to increase shelf life, stabilize flavor and make foods creamy - usually come from partially hydrogenated oils found in most cookies, cakes and processed foods. The food industry used them for decades because they were cheap and thought to be healthier than saturated fats. But scientists have found that's not the case, with studies finding a relationship between diets high in trans fat and high LDL, or "bad" cholesterol, levels. Trans fatty acids 101 Here's what the Food and Drug Administration wants you to know about trans fats: The government recommends that Americans limit trans-fat consumption to no more than 2 grams a day. It's everywhere. It's in foods such as vegetable shortening, margarine, crackers, candies, baked goods, snack foods, fried foods, salad dressings and many processed foods. Read the label. If it includes shortening, partially hydrogenated vegetable oil or hydrogenated vegetable oil, it contains trans fat. Zero isn't always zero. The FDA allows a food product containing less than 0.5 grams of trans fat per serving to be listed as 0 grams on the Nutrition Facts panel. That's why consumers might see a few products that list 0 grams of trans fat, while the ingredients list will have "shortening" or "partially hydrogenated vegetable oil.

I just watched "Room for One More" on DVD (also called "The Easy Way"). I loved this film. It is the story of a family (Cary Grant and Betsy Drake starring as Poppy and Anna Rose) who take in a couple of orphaned children, and the various mi-adventures and calamities that result. I enjoyed the way the film dealt with some real-life issues, like how the financially-strapped couple would deal with the added costs of taking in another child, how natural children deal with adopted children, and how normal children deal with disabled children. Some of the scenes arent pretty; in the current era of political-correctness, we sometimes forget how mean children could be to one another back in those days. There are several scenes in the movie that involve the Boy Scouts. As a Scouter myself, these were my favorite parts. I especially liked the Eagle ceremony, and I really noticed how the Pledge of Allegiance, as said in 1952, omits under God, which wasnt added until 1954! Another thing I noticed: George Winslow, who played Teenie in this movie, later played a Cub Scout in Mister Scoutmaster (1953) starring Clifton Webb and Frances Dee. Scouting played a prominent role in both films, which evidenced the place of Scouting in American society of the 1950s. For those of us currently involved in Scouting, we can only look with nostalgia at how Scouting was viewed at that time: as a wholesome activity for boys, unburdened with all the baggage of the political-correctness of our times. Whether youre a Scouter or not, I think (unless youre totally jaded) that you and your children will really enjoy this heartwarming story of Scouting in an extended family. If you want to get the film on DVD, contact cheryl@elvis.com

Goodness -- LNT says clothing and gear should blend with the environment. But The Oct 2005 Scouting Magazine interprets BSA policy in answering a letter with "no camoflage uniforms". So what's a Scouter to do??

If there's a failure here (based on your description), I think it is the SM who has failed his boys, not the opther way around. As others have said, it is the SM's job to train the SPL, and if the SPL and his PLC aren't doing their jobs, the first place I'd look to is whoever trained them, and is (or should be) counseling them on an on-going basis. Second, part of being "boy-led" is the opportunity to fail. If the patrols elected ineffective PLs, they need to live with the consequences of that decision until its time for new elections. Sometimes failure is a good way to learn a lesson. Unless the rest of the boys were in immediate danger, I'd say the SM overreacted big-time by yanking the PLC en-masse. I'd have a talk with your CC, COR and UC immediately to get this straightened out. And your SM needs to make very clear what his expectations are of the SPL and PLC. Yanking them, even after dropping a few hints, sounds like a formula for disaster. If you don't get satisfaction, then I'd say its time to look for a new troop, and be sure you ask how they handle boy leadership failures. Good luck. Fred Goodwin ASM, T515 Alamo Area Council

Mark, that's a great list! May I steal, er, um, uh . . . "borrow" it??

In addition to the references mentioned, might I suggest Baloo's Bugle: http://usscouts.org/usscouts/bbugle.asp It has ceremonies, songs, skits, etc. A great resource.

Are other boys in the den crossing to the same troop in Feb? If so, holding one boy back will mean he'll be behind his peers when he finally crosses over. I don't mean to sound insensitive, but why exactly does grandma have any say at all about when the boy crosses over? As long as it can be worked into the schedule of pack meetings, that ought to be the extent of the CM's responsibilities. With all due respect to grandma, when the boy crosses over should be decided by his family, his WDL and the SM of the receiving troop, not the CM. I say this as a former WDL and CC, and currently an ASM and UC. I think having the Webelos IIs attend a final PWD and B&G then getting their AOL and crossing over makes for a very busy and meaningful winter-spring. By the time get a troop campout (or two) under their belts before summer camp, the new boys should be fairly well integrated into the troop. Just my 2

The blue diamond-shaped Webelos patch is NOT being discontinued. Remember that LDS Packs don't use the Tiger program -- so LDS Scouts may continue to use the full-diamond of rank patches as was the case before the Tiger diamond replaced the Tiger strip in 2001. Thanx, Fred G.

To the Girl Scout leaders on the Forum: Does the Girl Scout program have anything to say to the girls about this issue? My wife was a GS leader when my daughter was little (from K to about 8th grade), but sadly I must admit that I didn't follow the details of her program nearly as much as I do the Boy Scout program of my son (a 6th grader currently working on his 2C). And knowing that BSA has next to nothing to say about how a boy dresses, I was wonderng if the situation was the same with GSUSA and its girls?

ScoutNut, what you say about IOLS and WLOT being two completely different courses used to be true -- that is no longer the case with the rewrite of Webelos Leader Oudoor Training (WLOT) into Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders (OLSWL). The "old" WLOT *was* designed to be run completely separately from the old SMF or the (relatively) new IOLS. However, the "new" WLOT (now called OLSWL) is *designed* to be run parallel to and for some sessions, in conjunction with, IOLS. Our Council ran its first OLSWL a month ago and did it according to the syllabus, i.e., in conjunction with IOLS. I'm told it was a disaster. I believe our next course will follow the syllabus but it will be conducted independently of IOLS. In any event, the real point is: whether IOLS, WLOT, or OLSWL, in all the courses, you get only an overview. I taught IOLS two weeks ago and we didn't even get to show attendees how to light a Coleman lantern, because it isn't in the syllabus. I'm afraid if attendees are looking for actual hands-on, they will most likely have to get it in their own units when they go camping. There simply isn't time in the syllabus, given the number of topics that must be covered in such a limited time, to do any one topic justice, much less time to include things that arent't even in the syllabus (e.g., pitching a tent isn't demonstrated).

I heard something very similar to this a couple of nites ago on NPR. That is really unfortunate that so many Americans go hungry -- makes this year's Scouting for Food drive even more important. We (Scouting) can't solve world hunger -- but we can certainly help our neighbors.

I guess the lesson in your troop's case is: don't assume anything. Just because you don't see any hiking limits doesn't mean there aren't any. When you say "ask", it all depends on what and how you ask. I'd say to be absolutely sure, inform the park rangers that you have a group of xxx Scouts and zz adults -- then ask them if there *anyplace* along the trail, beside the trail, sidetrails, detours, etc. where the group will be over the size limit? Also, if you file a hiking plan with the rangers, you really should stick to it -- if your group gets lost on a trail that's not on the hiking plan, you make it that much harder for SAR to find you. Justa suggestion . . .

nldscout: so how do you suggest that troops deal with the issue of local regulations?

I wonder if "attendance" isn't being affected by the Thanksgiving holiday?

School sponsorship should no longer be an issue. BSA has directed all councils to transfer any remaining charters from public schools to private entities. I just thought it was intersting that even public school principals see the value of private clubs instilling character and discipline in its members, the public school students, not unlike what BSA tries to do.

ronvo: I appreciate your comments. I don't believe I said anything about pushing Christianity either in schools or in Scouting. In fact, the article I used to start this thread talks about a Jewish afterschool club. As I said, what grabbed my attention were comments by two school principals who said they noticed that students in such clubs seem to be more courteous, cooperative, respectful, disciplined, less problematic and of better character. One of the two principals even said his school would be willing to do anything that reduced discipline problems and helped developed character. I simply note that those are the very things we try to promote in Scouting. So it seems to me, Scouting would be a good fit for that principal's school. If a Jewish club can work and be accepted, seems like Scouting could, and should, also. Where does Christianity enter into anything I've said so far?

Eagle: Did you know the local size limitation in advance? Had you known, you could have asked another adult to come along, then broken the boys up into two groups. I guess I don't see why that's so hard to do -- but it requires advance planning. I pity those groups that show up at a trail or campsite, only to find out they're over the limit -- but whose fault is that?