fgoodwin

"What It Means to be an American" $2000 savings bond to the winner; open to kids in 10-11-12th grades For more info, see: http://www.gopusa.com/youngpatriots/flyer.pdf Discosure: yes, this is a partisan website, but if you know of similar contests, please feel free to post them. But let's not get into a partisan debate over ideologies. Let's stay focused on the youth, and finding opportunities for them.(This message has been edited by fgoodwin)

acco writes:Merlyn's point, my point, and the point of the ACLU is simply that public funds should not be spent on private organizations, regardless of how we feel about those private organizations.So, even if BSA allowed girls, gays and atheists, you and the ACLU would still oppose federal support because it is a private organization? (This message has been edited by fgoodwin)

Interesting discussion about Cub Scouts and ham radio at eHam.net: http://www.eham.net/articles/11709 But no mention of JOTA!

SP: when you post a reply, the entire thread is listed below the box into which you type your reply. You can cut and paste any of those comments. You can also use HTML to set off the quote; see below:What do you need to do in order to cut portions of a post out and paste them in a reply? Occasionally this works, but most of the time the pasted portion is deleted, even when it is displayed when a post is previewed.You sometimes have to play with the editing to get it to look they way you want it.

History Matters: Early Scout illustrates organization's rich history in Utah http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2960208 Ardis E. Parshall Salt Lake Tribune Utah's Boy Scouts have had a rough couple of years with forest fires, massive searches for lost Scouts and the untimely deaths of beloved sons. Although recent tolls have been heavy, the rewards, over time, have been priceless. Tessie Dalebout turned 6 in the spring of 1912. On May Day of that year, as the curly-haired child skipped along the banks of Parley's Creek in Salt Lake City, she lost her footing and slipped into the turbulent waters. The stream, swollen by melting snow, caught the tiny girl and tumbled her end over end. She was carried for nearly a block, passing under two bridges before some men who had seen her fall were able to catch her. They pulled her out and laid her on the bank. A crowd gathered around her still body. Noticing the commotion, 15-year-old Louis Rosenlund ran to see what was happening. He saw that rescuers were using the old-fashioned technique of pumping Tessie's arms and legs in a vain attempt to restore breathing. Young Louis immediately took over from the adults. He turned Tessie on her stomach and positioned her arms under her forehead to raise her nose and mouth off the ground. Then he knelt astride the child's hips, placing both hands on the small of her back. With a gently increasing pressure, he leaned into Tessie, pushing slowly, steadily upward to compress her abdomen and lower chest. Water gushed from her mouth. Then Louis suddenly relaxed his pressure, and the natural elasticity of Tessie's body caused her chest to expand and air to fill her lungs. Again and again and again, Louis applied firm pressure, forcing the breath out of Tessie's lungs, then relaxing his arms to allow fresh air to rush in. It took nearly 15 minutes, but finally Tessie began to breathe on her own. She was carried home to her grateful parents before any doctor arrived. It turns out that Louis was a patrol leader in the Waterloo Ward MIA Scouts. On a recent Tuesday evening, Louis and his friends had learned the relatively new Schaefer method of artificial respiration. While not as sophisticated as today's mouth-to-mouth breathing, it was light-years ahead of the old sailors' trick of stimulating the lungs by raising and lowering a victim's arms. The Boy Scout movement originated with Lord Robert Baden-Powell in Great Britain in 1909. It was brought to the United States in 1910, and an Episcopal minister organized Utah's first troop in Logan the same year. Louis' Waterloo Ward boys formed the first LDS-sponsored troop; organized during the winter of 1911-1912, it competes with the independent group raised by an 18-year-old Scout for honors as the earliest Salt Lake City troop. It's hard to be absolutely certain, but Louis' rescue of little Tessie is possibly the first case of a Utah life saved by Scout training. Tessie soon recovered from her near-drowning. She grew up and married. When Tessie Dalebout Harrop passed away in 1971, having lived all her life in Salt Lake City, she was survived by her husband, a son, five grandchildren and a great-grandchild. They, and all of Tessie's descendants born since then, have good reason to thank the preparation that Scouting teaches. Cool-headed Louis Rosenlund continued to support civic and fraternal organizations as he grew up. He worked as the Salt Lake City sales rep for a Minnesota paper company. The former Scout was never robust, however, and heart disease took him from his wife and two small children in 1931, at age 34. Our Boy Scouts will cope with the lawsuits and relearn lessons of wilderness safety. We will remember Garrett Bardsley and Paul Ostler. And we will think of countless good turns, communities and lives bettered by Eagle Scout projects, and a noble line of boy heroes reaching back to the earliest days of Scouting in Utah. Ardis E. Parshall is a Salt Lake City historian and writer.

Duty, Honor and Allah http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1096510,00.html Yes, there are Muslim Boy Scouts--and bound by an oath to serve God and country, they want to change views about their faith and loyalties By JEFF CHU/FORT A.P. HILL What's up, Jihad?" Shamez Hemani was waiting in line to try out the shotguns at the National Scout Jamboree earlier this month when, he says, a white kid behind him asked that question. Shamez, 14, and four fellow scouts--all sons of Pakistani immigrants and members of all-Muslim Troop 797 in Houston--stood frozen for a couple of seconds. "Then we asked him what he said," Shamez says. "We were like, 'Do you know what it means?' And he was like, 'No.' He apologized. After you talk to them, you realize that it's not intentional--just ignorance." Not that it makes such jibes easier to take. "But the pressure is something you have to live with," Shamez says, "if you want to change the way people think about you." Most people probably think of the Boy Scouts of America as a Christian group--and not a particularly inclusive one, a reputation earned in part through its efforts to keep out gays, atheists and agnostics. But the Scouts insists it is open and diverse, especially in matters of faith. The Boy Scout oath includes a pledge to "do my best to do my duty to God and my country" but doesn't specify which god. There are Jewish, Hindu, Mormon and Baha'i scouts. There are Muslim scouts too, and for at least 20 years there have been all-Muslim troops in the U.S. Like boys in most other troops, Muslim scouts camp and plan badge-earning activities together, but over the past four years, those boys have also had to negotiate a different kind of obstacle course, one for which there is no official award. "We're just average American boys doing average American activities," says Troop 797 scout Rehman Muhammad, 13. "But after Sept. 11, we also have to be ambassadors of our faith." Both Muslim scouts in non-Muslim troops and those in the growing number of troops sponsored by Islamic schools and mosques say negative comments from other kids about Islam are routine. "Someone called me Saddam yesterday," says Omar Abbasi, 13, of Totowa, N.J., the only Muslim in his troop. Salman Mukhi, 13, of Troop 797 says that on the bus to the jamboree, some non-Muslims "copied us when we prayed and were sort of jeering at us. It wasn't serious. We explained to them that they shouldn't do that. But sometimes it's just easier to hang out with each other." There are now all-Muslim scout packs and troops in at least 22 states, involving more than 2,000 scouts and leaders. They can be found in big cities like Chicago and Atlanta, centers of the Arab-American community such as Dearborn, Mich., and smaller towns like Pottsville, Pa., and Rochester, Minn. Khadija Fuad started a troop last fall at the Islamic School of Louisville, Ky., even though her son Hussein also belongs to what she describes as a "very inclusive" troop at a Baptist church. "I wanted to get more people involved," she says of the new all-Muslim troop. "I thought we could concentrate on Islamic issues and do things our own way." In addition to the merit badges that all scouts can earn in such areas as cooking and plumbing, Muslim scouts can pursue special emblems by studying Islamic history and theology and performing faith-related community service. When the National Islamic Committee on Scouting began awarding emblems about 15 years ago, it gave out two or three a year; now it averages 75 to 80. Siraj Narsi, whose son Shahmeer is in Troop 797, believes that their faith and scouting are mutually reinforcing. "The values of scouting are so similar to what we learn in Islam," says Narsi, who was a scout in Pakistan. He recites the 12 virtues in Scout law, which defines a scout as trustworthy, clean, obedient and helpful, as principles particularly prized by Muslims. There are times, though, when differences between the worlds are jarringly apparent. Boy Scout officials proudly proclaim the group's commitment to pluralism--"We have a duty to God in our oath," says spokesman Robert Bork, "but not a Christian God." Yet that ideal is not always put into practice. Rehman, a jamboree chaplain's aide, recalls how, as he and the other chaplain's aides left a meeting, "everyone was handed a Bible. For a second, I thought it was a one-religion organization." Similarly, although halal meals were requested for Muslim scouts attending the jamboree, no one seems to have ascertained whether the salami in the sandwiches contained pork; bacon was a staple on the breakfast menu. Omar ended up eating meal after meal of peanut-butter-and-jelly sandwiches, shared by a Jewish patrol leader who, suspecting it might be tough to keep kosher, had brought enough for others. And no Muslim chaplain was on site to lead Friday services, so Asad Shahid, 15, of Naugatuck, Conn., nervously guided his fellow scouts to a spot in the shade of a big oak tree, turned to face Mecca and led the prayers for the first time in his life. Still, the more the Muslim boys are set apart, the more they want to be thought of-- and treated--the same as other scouts. "We're the same. We're the same," insists Ali Raza Jiwani, 14. "We're the same as everyone else: humans made by God." Ali Raza and his buddies talk basketball. They tease one another about girls. They swear. And they are fervently patriotic. "We're proud to be Asian American," says Amin Ali, 15, who has thought about becoming a military pilot. "I love my country," says Salman. "My religion doesn't interfere with that." Some even became scouts in the belief that it would make them seem more American. Auri Moaven, 15, of Short Hills, N.J., says his Iranian-born parents encouraged him to be a scout in part because it would distinguish him from other Muslim kids: "When someone sees me, they will say I've done something extraordinary that most Muslims in America don't do." At the jamboree, the 13 scouts from Troop 797 camped with troops from the Houston area, and the Muslims' very presence provided a learning experience for the others. "I always thought most Boy Scouts were white, Christian boys," said Jim Scofield, 13, a lanky scout with a quick giggle whose troop is sponsored by a Catholic church. Matthew Griffin, 13, a Mormon scout, says he didn't know that "there are lots of different kinds of Muslims." The Troop 797 scouts are Ismailis, whose practices differ from those of other Muslims; for instance, they pray three times a day instead of five as Sunnis or Shi'ites do. "I've only met two other Muslims in my life, and they both smelled like incense," says Alan Albrecht, 12. "But these guys are just like us." Being a living lesson in tolerance--countering stereotypes, representing an entire religion--can be a heavy burden for such young shoulders to bear. "I guess I might respond that it's Allah's will what happens," Shamez reflected a few days after the jamboree ended. "It's Allah's will." And it's a scout's duty to do his best.

And before anyone complains that my data are pre-"Dale", I can only say I used what I could find. The Canadian study was over the 1995-2000 timeframe, and I wanted to use the same timeframe for BSA to make the results comparable. If anyone has more recent data, by all means post it.

I know there have been various threads discussing the reasons behind BSA's membership decline. Some have suggested that BSA's policies regarding gays and God (and to a lesser extent, girls) have contributed to the membership decline. I'm not sure I agree with that, but if anyone has a link to an online study that has examined this issue, I'd love to read it. I have not been able to find one, but I did find a study that looked at the decline in membership in Scouts Canada: http://scoutdocs.ca/Membership_Retention/MRST.html I've heard (but I don't have a reference) that Scouts Canada does not exclude gays. It is also open to girls. But I think it still excludes atheists. So, Scouts Canada is more open than BSA with respect to two of the "3Gs", yet is seeing a steeper decline in membership than BSA: Scouts Canada: 18% decline from 1995 to 2000 (see above URL) BSA: 3% decline from 1995 to 2000 (see URL below): http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/bsa-membership.html So those who attribute BSA's decline to its policy on girls, gays and atheists will need to explain the even greater decline in Scouts Canada, even though they are open to girls & gays.

Glad you liked it -- I thought it was pretty funny and not in a mean way.

Ed, I don't believe this article says anything bad about the Boy Scouts. But it does give an interesting theory as to why the President may have cancelled his initial Jamboree appearance.

Nick, I've already explained why I cut and paste the entire article. Many web articles are archived after a week (or a month, or whatever the local editorial policy is). At the time the link goes dead, future readers will have no way to read the actual text and decide for themselves if quotes were lifted out of contaxt (for example, as I've been accused of doing -- one of the things that prompted me to adopt this policy). Its possible you missed my explanation -- so don't take my first statement as chastising. And to answer NJCS's question: it seems to me that the author's thesis is that President Bush cancelled his appearance just so he could see that CAFTA was passed. And it doesn't appear to be satire -- I think the author is quite serious, but of course I could be wrong.

America's Most Precious Resource http://www.theconservativevoice.com/articles/article.html?id=7574 by Eddie Hightower August 18, 2005 08:47 AM EST In today's America, we are living in what has been called by many "a throw-away society." And this seems to be verified by the immensity of the waste industry. But without going to the trouble of doing a massive study of the problem, just take notice of how much trash we have to pile out on the curb each week for the sanitation workers to discard for us. And all of these individual piles contribute to the mountainous land fills of America. The great tragedy is that America has another problem when it comes to this "throw-away" mentality -- the trashing of the nation's greatest and most precious resource. The utter wasting of America's youth. It is no wonder that many rational newly weds even hesitate to bring into this world offspring who will have to face the terrible challenges of life which were unthinkable in earlier years of America. America's youth is being attacked from almost every direction. The most obvious and the most disturbing is the criminal element of our morally corrupt society. Daily the headlines scream of the kidnappings, rapes, torturing, and murders of our nation's youth. Many of the recent victims' images have been seered into our mind's eye and their names have become as familiar as those of our neighbors children. And in a very real sense, all of these unfortunate victims are the children of our neighbors; just maybe not our nextdoor neighbors. And then there is the added tragedy that many of the youth themselves have become criminal in their activities and lives. The children and young men and women have more and more begun to victimize their fellow citizens of youthful ages. So goes the old saying, "Like father, like son," or "like mother, like daughter." So what is the answer? Where is the salvation of American society? Who will offer a way out of this jungle which threatens the very survival of the young people of America? It surely seems that those politicians who have run on political platforms which were filled with promises of reform have failed. It is well established that the courts of justice in America have turned a blind eye of justice upon our youth. And even in what used to be the very last place that the youth should have been afraid of, the so-called preachers, ministers, and bishops of the nation's churches are now to be viewed with suspicion in order to safeguard our precious children. All of this started, like most everything starts, in a very small fashion. The homes of America began to change for all of the many reasons which came along with moderniztion. With the many distractions of parents from their duties as role models and disciplinarians of the youth. The social drifts away from individual responsibilities and accountibility for one's actions. The moral drift has reached proportions of a nationwide landslide. And America's youth is being buried under our immorality. One great source of answers to these problems is the written word which many of us call The Bible. In the 22nd chapter of Proverbs and the 6th verse we read, "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Too many parents have failed their children, for whatever reasons and excuses, in their training. Too many parents have left the training to the baby sitters, the child care centers, the public schools, and others who cannot provide the necessary moral and principled training which is necessary. One very troubling reason that many parents cannot train a child in the way that they should go, is that they themselves became lost a long time ago. It is like the blind leading the blind down a long road of moral and spiritual destruction. And because of this tragic failure of parental guidance, too many of the children upon growing old have departed from the proverbial straight and narrow paths of righteousness; in fact, many never even make it to adulthood because of lives shortened by the pitfalls of unrighteous living. The dangers of addictions of all sorts, of running with the wrong crowds which includes criminal gangs, and the rebellion against all that is good, wholesome, and righteous have led many of America's youth to an early grave. In addition to the Holy Scriptures, there is another book which is under greater attack every day from those who detest the very thought of moral principles and the rule of authority of a righteous nature. And that is the Handbook of the Boy Scouts of America, which presents the pledge which each member of the Boy Scouts is expected to live up to. Boy Scout Oath (or Promise): "On my honor I will do my best: To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law "To help other people at all times "To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight." The Scout Law is a summary of character issues that scouts pledge to follow. A Scout is: Trustworthy Loyal Helpful Friendly Courteous Kind Obedient Cheerful Thrifty Brave Clean Reverent If only every young man who was ever an American citizen had been a Boy Scout and every young woman had been a Girl Scout, then our nation today would resemble the Norman Rockwell covers of the Saturday Evening Post Magazine and our nation's most precious resorce -- the youth of Ameirca would have been preserved. But it is not too late. And our youth is still too precious to irresponsibly ignore.

Assuming is a dangerous thing. I didn't say anything. Do you have any reaction to the author's thesis?

President Bush Went AWOL from Boy Scouts, Democrats Charge http://www.pugbus.net/artman/publish/08012005_bushscout.shtml By Biff Scuzzy Aug 1, 2005, 07:49 WASHINGTON, D.C. - Democrats in Congress have called for an investigation into President George W. Bush's Boy Scout service. Even as the president offered words of comfort Sunday to more than fifty thousand scouts at their national jamboree in Virginia, Senate minority leader Harry M. Reed of Nevada announced the formation of Swift Scouts for Truth, an ad hoc committee dedicated to determining whether the president received favorable treatment after he had failed to attend regularly scheduled meetings while he was a scout in Andover, Massachusetts. "As president, Mr. Bush is this country's scoutmaster-in-chief," said Reed. "If by his actions as a scout he dishonored the organization in any way, he should resign that post at once." President Bush joined the Boy Scouts as a youth of eleven in the summer of 1957. He progressed through the ranks in a steady if unspectacular fashion, eventually achieving Eagle Scout status six years later in the summer following his second year at Phillips Academy in Andover, Massachusetts. According to scouting records released by the White House, George W. Bush was a model, albeit slow learning, scout in Texas. "He isn't the sharpest tool in the shed," wrote Colonel Quentin Mustard, a now retired scoutmaster who was acquainted with Tenderfoot Bush at the time, "but he's a gung-ho help-old-ladies-to-cross-the-street young man." Few would dispute Mustard's description of Bush, who gave every impression of being a model scout. Then in the summer of 1961, Bush requested a transfer to a scout troop in Andover, Massachusetts, where he planned to attend school. Such transfers were unusual, said Reed, "and there is some suspicion that Bush's father had to pull some strings to get him into a Massachusetts scouting unit. Despite this unusual transfer privilegeor perhaps because of itBush treated the Andover scouting unit with disdain. Although he told the Boy Scouts at the jamboree yesterday that he was "proud to be one of them," records indicate that he not only missed months of meetings between 1961 and 1963 but also may have been improperly awarded credit for service leading to the attainment of merit badges required for elevation to Eagle Scout status. Swift Scouts for Truth claim the White House is purposely withholding records pertaining to the president's two years of "nominal service" in the Andover, Massachusetts, scouting unit. "The White House knows those records will show that President Bush received merit badges in Citizenship in the World, Family Life, Emergency Preparedness, and Gay Baiting, even though there is no evidence he completed the work necessary to earn them," said Swift Scouts for Truth board member Michael Moore. Both Moore and Reed suggest that "the missing records" will also show the future president had first attempted to transfer to a "standby scouting unit" in Massachusetts. Unlike the Texas unit to which the president had belonged, the Massachusetts standby unit reqjuired no monthly meetings, and its members could earn merit badges simply by writing a paper aboutrather than actually performingthe requirements for each merit badge. In late September 1961, Bush finally joined a "ready reserve scouting unit" in Massachusetts, but shortly afterward he failed to take the annual physical exam required of all Eagle Scout candidates. Although Bush has explained that he had missed his physical because he was waiting to get examined by his personal physician, Reed maintains that Bush "should have known" scouts had to be examined by approved scouting doctors. As a consequence of failing to report for his scouting physical, Bush was notified that he was suspended from all scouting promotion programs. Nevertheless, he was able to obtain merit badges between 1961 and 1963, and his suspension was eventually lifted so he could graduate "with honor" from the scouting program with the rank of Eagle Scout when he turned eighteen. Bush has described his years in Andover as his "nomadic" years, when he "kind of floated and saw a lot of life." No one who knew him at the time remembers him seeing a lot of Boy Scout service, nor did he exhibit much interest in anything else apart from cheerleading practice and drinking. In related news, if Bush is found guilty of deserting his scouting unit, former Eagle Scout and current vice president, Dick Cheney could possibly assume command of the Boy Scouts. This prospect is cause for concern in some quarters because Cheney is widely suspected of favoring the nationalizing some scouting units in times of emergency.

Boy Scouts vs. CAFTA http://www.etalkinghead.com/archives/boy-scouts-vs-cafta-2005-07-28.html Thursday, July 28, 2005 By Vivian Greentree Picture this: A group of over 600 Boy Scouts marches onto a field singing and then sits down in the grass to wait for President Bush. But hours later, the news that Bush couldn't make it is drowned out by sirens and shouts as hundreds fell ill because of the high temperature. While Boy Scouts waited at their annual Jamboree for Pres. Bush to come and tell them about what it means to be a good citizen, he was busy twisting arms, old school style, on Capitol Hill. The Pres., who was scheduled to give a speech yesterday to the Scouts, had a more important issue on the table....passing his pet project CAFTA. You have to read various news stories to put this scenario together, but damned if it isn't true... Ironic isn't it? Playing by politics as usual, the Pres. knew he had to pass CAFTA or be seen as a whipping boy for the rest of his (thankfully short) administration. During debates yesterday, when the pressure was really on to get CAFTA passed (it passed by 2 votes) GOPers fell back to the old play book by calling anyone and anything that opposed them pinko-commies. "We must not neglect the anti-democracy, anti-American forces that are at work in Latin America," said Republican representative from California David Dreier in support of CAFTA-DR during the two-hour debate before the vote. Whatever Dave, we all know your interests are much more oriented toward your own wallet. The CAFTA legislation is more about institutionalizing cheap labor than about...no, I take that back...it is about institutionalizing the free trade of cheap labor... But the Pres., as usual, completely turns common sense on its head (while skillfully incorporating his 2 favs, morality and national security): "CAFTA helps ensure that free trade is fair trade by lowering trade barriers to American goods in Central American markets to a level now enjoyed by their goods in the US," he said. We have a moral obligation and a vital national security interest in helping democracies of Central America and the Dominican Republic succeed, and CAFTA furthers that goal," he added. What he didn't mention, though, is that CAFTA actually allows businesses here (i.e. his friends) to sue the Federal Govt. for damages that they feel are caused by having to follow Fed. regulations?!?! Figure that one out. Oh, and don't think I am not going to track down those 15 Democrats who crossed over to vote for it either...all of Lefty Blogdom is going to be out for them! Anyway, just thought it was interesting that the Scouts got shafted so the U.S. could get CAFTED....

Banning the Boy Scouts http://www.anxietycenter.com/warning/v7n30.htm Would someone please tell me what is wrong with pledging to be trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent? And what is wrong with pledging, "On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and country and to obey the Scout Law; to help other people at all times; to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight"? According to the American Civil Liberties Union and others who have joined the attack on the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) these qualities that are intended to take a boy into a mature manhood are wrong because the BSA discriminates against homosexuals, atheists, and females. Well, imagine that? Girls cant join the Boy Scouts! Instead, they are forced to join the Girl Scouts. And atheists cant join either because the BSA believes that a reverence for a greater power, a universal God of mankind, is essential to being someone who accepts a code of moral behavior advocated by major faiths. And, finally, the BSA believes that homosexuality is not conducive to the well being of a group devoted to traditional male bonding and activities that put lots of males in close contact. The 2005 National Scout Jamboree will bring together 40,000 Boy Scouts, leaders, and volunteers, running from July 25 to August 3. Some 300 Boy Scouts from twenty other nations will be there as well. It is being held on an army base at Fort A.P. Hill, Bowling Green, Virginia. Hans Zeiger has written "Get Off My Honor: The Assault on the Boy Scouts of America" ($12.95, Broadman & Holman, Nashville, TN). He has made a good case for why this nation should be grateful to have had the BSA and why everyone who shares its values should come to its defense. "Around the country, the Boy Scouts are under increasing pressure to become politically correct, watered-down, feminized, and secularized." It doesnt seem to mean anything to a lot of people that the BSA has a civil right to be a voluntary association. If any comparable organization can be forced to accept people who do not share its values, then there is no point to come together to advance those values. This strikes at the very heart of a free and democratic nation. The most extraordinary aspect of the attack on the BSA is that the values it holds dear are the very ones that have contributed to the greatness of America. They are values that guide the conduct of men who have passed through its ranks and gone on to be our nations leaders in business, the military, and politics. Losing sight of those values, however, can lead to some very strange and dangerous ideas. Take, for example, a June 2003 editorial in the Philadelphia Daily News that asked, "Whats the difference between the Taliban and the Boy Scouts?" The writer could see no difference between Muslim fundamentalists and "the homophobic American shapers of youth." One difference is that Islamist law recommends the execution of homosexuals. The BSA merely says they cannot join. As someone who has friends in the Gay community, the one thing they have never been able to accept is that their sexual preference is seen by many as deviancy. It is not that Gays are bad people, theyre not. Their insistence, however, that they are "normal" is contrary to common sense and the laws of Nature. It may be "normal" to them, but it is not normal to a society, to all societies, based on the union of male and female, the bringing of children into the world, and the establishment of families. The BSA does not want them as members. Plainly said, scouting is about learning how to be a man and that does not include sexual relations with other men. Hardly a hotbed of bigots, the BSA does not, for example, exclude boys with disabilities. Being blind or deaf does not exclude one from participating in the Boy Scout experience. Being Black does not either. In the 1920s, a Black preacher organized the first BSA troop. Throughout the 20s and 30s, there were troops in the segregated South and segregation was not enough to stop the BSA spirit of fellowship from helping one another. The BSA has always respected American Indian traditions and a popular merit badge is devoted to Indian lore. The attack on the BSA is forcing local councils to consider the inclusion of Gays. One wonders if they will soon be required to accept atheists and then have to change the Boy Scout oath? If the BSA is forced to abandon its purpose of producing the men of the future, what kind of future would that be? And would we want to live in it? For good or ill, male traits have been the driving force of every successful civilization. The author of "The War on Boys", Christina Hoff Summers, has written that, "Traditional male traits such as aggression, competitiveness, risk-taking, and stoicism---constrained by virtues of valor, honor, and self-sacrifice---are essential to the well-being and safety of our society." One can hardly think what our society would be like without the men who become its soldiers, sailors, airmen, policemen, firemen, and others who stand ready to sacrifice themselves for others. Yes, there are women, too, serving in these occupations, but it is men who set the standards. This nation needs the Boy Scouts of America now more than ever. This nation celebrates and honors the military that is fighting to protect our way of life, our freedoms. We should celebrate the men who take on the responsibilities of marriage and family, and who are tough enough and tender enough to be a father. This nation needs men of faith and men of honor. Those seeking to change the Boy Scouts of America want to weaken this nation. America needs the BSA so that its boys can learn how to integrate themselves into the life of the nation where manhood, masculine values, a code of honor, and the opportunity to become men is essential.

I know there have been threads here and elsewhere discussing the reasons behind BSA's membership decline. Some have suggested that BSA's policies regarding gays and God (and to a lesser extent, girls) have contributed to the membership decline. I'm not sure I agree with that, but if anyone has a link to an online study that has examined this issue, I'd love to read it. I have not been able to find one, but I did find a study that looked at the decline in membership in Scouts Canada: http://scoutdocs.ca/Membership_Retention/MRST.html I've heard (but I don't have a reference) that Scouts Canada does not exclude gays. It is also open to girls. But I think it still excludes atheists. So, Scouts Canada is more open than BSA with respect to two of the "3Gs", yet is seeing a steeper decline in membership than BSA. So those who attribute BSA's decline to its policy on girls, gays and atheists will need to explain the even greater decline in Scouts Canada, even though they are open to girls & gays.

Why would you voluntarily choose to stay in an organization if you don't agree with its principles?

Such alternative organizations exist. And for those who simply cannot abide by BSA's policies, perhaps it is time for them to vote with their feet, leave, and join those other organizations.

All adult leaders agreed to abide by the BSA DRP when they signed their adult application. If any adult now feels like they disagree with the DRP, they should do the honorable thing and quit.

GB: where do you get the idea that I'm OK with falling memberships? And assuming that you have a problem with that, what can you do about it? All I can do is recruit for my local units -- there's nothing I can about the situation in Atlanta or any other Council, outside of my own. Even within my own Council, the only direct impact I can make is upon the numbers within the units I'm part of. Sticking my nose in somebody's else's business doesn't exactly comport with a Scout being friendly, courteous or kind.

Personally, I don't have an axe to grind either with my local Council or with National. There's not much I can do about what's going on in other Councils, but apparently, not everyone feels that way. More power to them . . .

A killer bolting out of the blue http://www.latimes.com/travel/outdoors/la-os-lightning16aug16,1,6290629.story When lightning strikes -- a random, capricious and far more likely occurrence than most people expect -- there's simply no good place to be outdoors. By Vernon Loeb, Times Staff Writer August 16, 2005 FOR the Boy Scouts this summer, lightning struck twice. In late July, Scouts from St. Helena, Calif., were huddled beneath a tarp in Sequoia National Park during a sudden hail storm when a bolt of lightning hit their hastily strung shelter. A Scout and a leader were killed, and six others were injured. Five days later, Scouts from Salt Lake City climbed into sleeping bags in a corner of a three-sided log shelter in the midst of a thunderstorm in Utah's Uinta Mountains when lightning struck a nearby tree and then either flashed through the air or streaked through the ground into the structure, killing an Eagle Scout and injuring three others. While both troops mistakenly followed the understandable, if not natural, tendency to seek shelter from rain and hail instead of protecting themselves against lightning lightning safety experts say the twin tragedies underscore a basic truth: There is no safe place to be outdoors in a lightning storm. Compounding the problem is the fact that most people vastly underestimate the danger of lightning. Lightning kills 75 people a year on average in the United States and injures 500 to 700 more, making it more deadly than hurricanes or tornadoes and far more common than people imagine. In most parts of the country, lightning likely strikes the ground 4,000 to 6,000 times a year within 10 miles of recreation facilities such as golf courses, neighborhood swimming pools and rec centers. Lightning is "so random and arbitrary and capricious and unpredictable," said Richard Kithil Jr., head of the nonprofit National Lightning Safety Institute, that "there is an element where 100% of safety is impossible." On the day that members of Troop 7001 moved along the John Muir Trail on the seventh day of a nine-day hike to Mt. Whitney, the tallest peak in the continental United States, 416 lightning strikes had struck the ground within 15 miles of the mountain, according to data from ground sensors recorded by the National Lightning Detection Network run by Vaisala Inc. in Tucson. Although lightning had been flashing throughout the afternoon, the Scouts had encountered hardly any rain until they suddenly found themselves in a storm of pea-sized hail minutes before the lightning struck, said Alexandra Picavet, a ranger and spokeswoman for Sequoia National Park. Afterward, Picavet told Times reporters that "the only thing that they could have done differently was simply disperse a little bit more, but actually they did as well as they could do in the situation that they were in." Similarly, authorities in Utah told the Associated Press that Scouts from Troop 56 lay in the safest place possible, referring to the log shelter, open on one side, at Camp Steiner, the nation's highest-altitude Boy Scout camp, 60 miles east of Salt Lake. Ron Holle, a government meteorologist for 33 years who now works for Vaisala and is considered a leading expert on lightning safety, said both assessments were inaccurate, based on what he'd read of the incidents. Neither the tarp strung between trees in Sequoia National Park nor the open log shelter at Camp Steiner, he said, provided any protection from lightning. Both were near trees that actually might have attracted the lightning bolts. A textbook response would have been far different. "Assume the lightning position when at risk," says the National Outdoor Leadership School's "Backcountry Lightning Safety Guidelines." "This position includes squatting (or sitting) and balling up so you are as low as possible without getting prone. If you are concerned enough to assume the lightning position, you should have your group dispersed at least 50 feet apart to reduce the chances of multiple injuries." The Scouts lying on the ground inside the log shelter were in a particularly bad position because lightning follows all paths down and spreads out across the ground. About half of all lightning deaths and injuries occur when voltage comes up through a victim's feet. If you're lying down with the full length of your body touching the ground, it's even worse, Holle said, and if you're close to a tree, "we're talking about serious voltage." But Holle said that critiquing what the Scouts did or didn't do is pointless because nothing they could have done out in the open would have necessarily kept them safe. The safest response under such circumstances, he said, would have been to head down the mountain. Or, better yet, not be in the mountains at all that day. "My recommendation is just as you don't go up on Mt. Whitney on the third of January in a raging snowstorm, you don't go up in raging thunderstorms at certain times of year," Holle said. "It really is a decision you have control over." He calculates the odds for an American being hit by lightning sometime in the course of an 80-year lifetime at about 1 in 3,000, with about 1 in 300 odds that a family member will be struck (assuming a family of 10), making lightning a far greater threat in the wild than a fatal shark attack, grizzly bear mauling or rattlesnake bite. Kurt Wedberg, who runs the guide service Sierra Mountaineering International, is aware of the odds. He teaches his clients to assume a lightning crouch on a foam sleeping pad in worst-case scenarios, and he agrees with Holle that the better course of action on some days is "adjusting your itinerary and sometimes that means getting off a peak a little earlier." Wedberg recently left before sunrise with a group climbing Mt. Russell and reached the summit by 8 a.m. "We were down 4,000 feet or more by the time any significant clouds developed," he said. According to Michael P. Utley, a survivor of a lightning strike who now runs a nonprofit educational organization called Struckbylightning.org, the Boy Scouts hiking in California and Utah made some mistakes when they got hit by lightning, but it's not clear whether anything could have protected them. Arguing they shouldn't have been there misses the point: When else but summer are Boy Scouts supposed to take their nine-day hike to Mt. Whitney? "Basically, it comes down to this: 95% of the time, we are in running distance to a house or a car," he said of the two safest places to be. "The 5% of the time we are out camping like the Boy Scouts, lightning is like a snake bite or a bear. It is a risk of nature." Better to teach CPR "because everybody who dies from a lightning strike dies from cardiac arrest" than second-guess Boy Scouts in a hailstorm huddled under a tarp, where human nature took them, Utley said. "If I was in the middle of a lightning and thunderstorm," he said, "I probably would have been there, too." LINKS: National Lightning Safety Institute: http://www.lightningsafety.com/ Backcountry Lightning Safety Guidelines: http://www.nols.edu/resources/research/pdfs/lightningsafetyguideline.pdf

Get Off My Honor: A Review http://www.sierratimes.com/05/08/15/66_82_9_27_59304.htm Rudy Takala I recently finished reading Hans Zeigers new book, Get Off My Honor: The Assault on the Boy Scouts of America. It attempted to demonstrate, as most political books have done as of late, that a certain institution is being victimized. The way we attempt to frame political debates in modern times is an amusing phenomenon to observe. People arent so interested in whats philosophically right or wrong as they are in what factions are being most oppressed by other factions in society. From David Limbaughs Persecution to Ann Coulters Slander to David Brocks The Republican Noise Machine, everyone wants to be a victim. While the thesis of Get Off My Honor isnt exactly an exception, the cases backing it are a bit more credible than those frequently used to prove the persecution alleged in other books. In the past decade, liberal assaults on the Boy Scouts have been more organized, more numerous, and strangely more viperous than their assaults on other conservative institutions. The Boy Scouts embody everything liberals hate, and liberals seem to believe that the mood of the American people is such that theyll be more agreeable to regulating the Boy Scouts than other Christian institutions. Thats probably because many Americans have an absurd predilection for equality, and they dont like anyone excluding anyone else from anything for any reason. As Zeiger observed, What [Alexis de] Tocqueville said about the desire of democratic peoples for equality is certainly a reality in America today. Instead of a movement toward equal rights of opportunity-the right to the pursuit of happiness and such-minority groups have made a loud cry for an inalienable right to absolute equality of condition. The book also takes a slight deviation from the norm of its peers by detailing why, exactly, the Boy Scouts are actually a good thing. Many books, in their authors zealous quest to incontrovertibly demonstrate the malicious victimization of their favorite group, fail to inform us why their organization is worth appreciating. Zeiger bothers to remind us that the basic virtues for which the Boy Scouts stand, such as honor, loyalty and honesty, are good things. At the same time, however, there are many flaws in his analysis. While the Boy Scouts are certainly not a malignant organization, they arent a sacred one, either. Is it true that their age and place in tradition alone makes them good? Young people desperately need permanent things to understand life and grow into responsible, respectful citizens, writes Zeiger, and he purports that this in contrast to modern America, where Americans [exist] on a perilous, unspiritual diet of change and instability. Why do we need the Boy Scouts to provide an icon of stability in our culture? Isnt the Bible stable enough? Biblical precepts that are thousands of years old shouldnt need recreational organizations to help reinforce their constancy. Another curiosity posed by the book is the manner in which almost all liberals are accused of being extreme individualists. At one point, Zeiger praises the words of Frank Hearn: One may have the right to self-esteem or feeling good but being good-being in a way that permits one to realize institutional goals-is an achievement. One earns self-respect only through the disciplined work of performing institutional duties or achieving institutional ideals. Such words were reminiscent of Julius Evola, a former Italian fascist, when, in Men Among the Ruins, he described the sort of people who supported fascist regimes. The inferior never lives a fuller life than when he feels his existence is subsumed in a greater order endowed with a center; then he feels like a man standing before leaders of men, and experiences the pride of serving as a free man in his proper station, wrote Evola. It seems almost absurd that a conservative today could come to a consensus with Hillary Clinton and Ted Kennedy in scorning the evils inherent to individualism. Throughout history, fascists and communists have been alone in spitting on individualism. Individuals dont destroy societies through war and genocide. It takes a collective, and that destruction is pretty much all collectives are good for. In another instance, Zeiger wrote, Honor is cultivated within communities and organizations that compose the culture. The culture-its ideas, customs, symbols, and heritage-causes individuals to find for themselves a higher calling, a purpose connected to the culture. Why does this sound like Hillary Clinton reminding us it takes a village? More often than not, villages are full of deranged cannibals. Virtue, of which honor is a component, proceeds from God. Communities, if anything, are usually little more than an obstruction to virtue. Get Off My Honor details the history of the Boy Scouts, the nature of its enemies, and the implications of allowing them to destroy the Scouts. Unfortunately, many of the objectives for which the book claims we should strive are questionable. Still, the Boy Scouts are in the midst of an unfinished war on American culture, and Hans Zeiger represents a strong element of conservatisms coming vanguard. Get Off My Honor is an illuminating hermeneutic with which we may understand the nature of the conflict within our culture; a conflict, I suspect, that has yet to reach its apogee.

jkhny: what exactly do you suggest we, as unit level Scouters, do about the issues you raise?