emb021

Some good quotes: "Democracy is nothing more then mob rule, where 51% of the people may take away the rights of the other 49%" -- Thomas Jefferson "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" -- Ben Franklin. "Government withou a Constitution is power without a right" -- Thomas Paine. "There was never a democracy yet that did not commit suicide." -- John Quincy Adams "When the government fears the people, there is liberty; when the people fear the government, there is tyranny" -- Thomas Jefferson "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything you want is also big enought to take awy everything you have." -- Davy Crockett

I went to PTC in 08. I decided to fly to Albuquerque. I found someone else going to PTC, and he rented a car there and we carpooled (I kicked in money to help pay for the rental & gas). Wednesday, we took advantage of the bus tour they offer in the afternoon. (ride down to Kit Carson Museum, a few other points, and then to Raton). I checked out the Seton Museum that morning and did a tour of the Villa.

"I have been quoting the handbook verbatum. Your disagreement is with the BSA, not me. I am referring to the Commissioner Fieldbook for Unit Service, Chapter 9 - How to Remove a Volunteer. Please explain to me why this chapter exists, if not to instruct a Unit Commissioner on how to AFFECT the removal of a volunteer. " taking a little different tack from Eagle92, my impression of this section was more about the removal of a district/council volunteer, NOT a unit-level volunteer. But its been awhile since I've read that section, so could be wrong.

">>Barry, I think the real reason Campfire and GSA are failing is poor program organization.

"I am from the "older crowd" when there were no women in scouting." Oh? You must be extremely old. Women have been in scouting almost from the begining. When I was a kid, we had den mothers and other cub scout leaders. Later on, it was common to see women as commissioners, district/council leaders, committee members, etc.

"First emb021 just because one small section of the BSA is coed DOES NOT make it a coed organization." Well, considering that WOSM puts together all associations that are either fully or party co-ed, it DOES. Take it up with them. I would be curious if there are any other associations which are only partially co-ed.

"I think it would be misleading to say scouts were racist, The official sanctioning body may have been at one time, but scouts as a whole probably were not." Sorry, but I have no idea what you mean by "official sanctioning body". If you meant the National BSA org, it was NEVER officially racist. Racism, when it occurred, happened at the local levels in units, camps, and councils.

The points made by BDPT00 are important. Sadly, a lot of people refuse to accept those points, or say you are being sexists for saying it. IF (I said IF) the BSA goes co-ed, I certainly hope they allow for single-gender units (as we do with Venturing). The problem I see is that some people push for co-ed scouting for the wrong reasons. The biggest do so for PC reasons ("you are discriminating against girls by not letting them in..."). There are some who do so for convenience (too inconvenient to have their sons and daughters in different programs/orgs, want a program the whole family is involved in)

"As it says, only 20 national scouting organizations are male only. Sorry, but the USA *is* in the minority and if we went coed at all levels it would not be the end of the world." Except that the BSA is NOT part of that group of 20 all-male orgs. : We are part of the 100 who are open to both girls & boy in some sections. This is due to the fact that Venturing is co-ed. The main point is the false claim that the BSA is the sole 'all-male' scout association. 1) we are not an all-male scout association, and 2) there are several all-male scout associations.

I first learned the terms "Class A/Class B" when I went to the 81 Jamboree as a youth. Since then, atleast in my state, most people understand as use the same meaning for these terms: Class A was the "full uniform": scout shirt, scout pants/shorts, scout belt, scout socks (atleast with the shorts), necker & scout hat were optional. Class B was the "activity uniform": scout shorts (NEVER pants), t-shirt (scout related prefered OR plain, non-scouting NOT allowed), scout belt, scout shorts. hat optional. When traveling, one could switch from class A to B by just adding/removing your scout uniform shirt (you worn a scout t-shirt underneath this to make this work). Class C was the "grubby uniform": scout t-shirt OR plain t-shirt (non-scouting t-shirts not allowed) with whatever pants. This was what you worn when you'd probably get dirty: OA work projects, dirty service projects, etc.

"Oh, and the USA is one of the last countries (I think Isreal may be one of the only others) where all sections of scouting isn't coed." BZZZT. Sorry, not true. Last stats I saw from WOSM was there are about 100 Scout Associations that are male-only. I get really sick of hearing people claim the BSA is the last non-co-ed Associations. Just not so. As to a merger between the BSA & GSUSA. There were serious talks between the BSA, GSUSA, and Camp Fire Girls in the late 60s/early 70s about a merge. From 69-71, the BSA allowed Girl Scouts & Camp Fire Girls to be Participants in Explorer Posts. AFAIK, the talks broke down and the BSA took Explorers co-ed in 71. Camp Fire went co-ed in 76. Not sure when the BSA started to use the "Scouts, BSA" strips, but the Scouting/USA brand didn't come out until the mid 70s, after the merge talk apparently was over.

Have you asked people in your council? Wood Badge, basically, is the BSA's advanced training course for all scouting leaders. They expect/hope that all leaders try to go thru WB within their first couple of years of becoming a leader. You should have your basic training under your belt and some experience as a leader before taking it. You go thru a course which will teach you more about leadership and scouting. An important asked of this is that to fully complete the course, you need to set goals for yourself (put into practice what you learned). Once you do so, you receive your beads. WB was, in fact, created by B-P as an advanced training course and is used in different forms around the world.

"But regarding BSA policy, and BSA "ancient history". It was policy, till about 20 years ago. It was a printed change to the handbooks and adult leader application for the Scoutmaster qualifications about 1990'ish. I believe BSA added "or female" to the Scoutmaster description." Quite true. There is a website out there which records the BSA changing policies regarding female leadership. Finally some time in the 90s, there were 6 positions that women couldn't hold, and those were finally opened up. I remember all the moaning and groaning from the 'old guard' that this was the end, that we'd have 'little old lady' scoutmasters, etc etc. Sorry, didn't happen. I know of many female scouters. They are as much 'outdoorsmen' as any guy. they have not 'sissyfied' scouting by being here.

"Does US Girl Scouting have a Sea Scout element?" they used to. It was called "Mariner Girl Scouts". for all practical purposes the program is dead. They don't have manuals or insignia.

"You may need to be care/get your council's approval for that. BSA nationally and some local councils, are really getting anal retentive about BSA 'branding" and ARE going after individuals and units." It's not just the BSA. It seems to be a trend. I'm involved in 2 other national membership orgs, and both have really jumped on the 'brand identity' wagon of late, coming out with new brand identity guidelines that they are enforcing.

"Yep there is a lot of complaining when things change. Part of it is human nature, we don't like change, and part of it is the passion of it's members and leaders. We don't want to see a great program destroyed." What Eagle92 said is good, but let me add to this. Yes, things change. Sometimes we like it, sometimes we don't. (heck, there is a reason that dealing with change is something that many organizations have to deal with. We have the 'who moved my cheese' and such books that look at that whole matter). I think a big part of this, and Eagle92's message shows this, is HOW that change is communicated by the BSA. Too often, the information isn't communicated well or its spotty or inconsistant. What isn't helped is that many times this information needs to be updated in a variety of sources, BUT these sources are seldom updated, so people argue and disagree with the new info, because source X says one thing, but source Y says something else. And you can't blame some people from being doubtful when documents don't agree, because how can you judge that one is more accurate then another, or some email from 'someone at National' is more accurate? Its said, as the BSA has a national magazine AND a website, and these could be sources of delivering correct information, but too often isn't used for that, usually only after the fact. Plus, they need to do a better job of updating their documents (and you know, using us volunteers would really help...)

Actually the most recent issue of Boys' Life had an article on the Quest Award.

"but believed that Venturers actually wore a green and white VLSC strip, and not a trained strip. Have they done away with the VLSC strip." The Venturers wear the VLSC strip IF they've gone thru the course. The literature has ALWAYS stated that Venturers who go thru the Crew Officer Briefing (or whatever the session is) are entitled to wear the trained strip. No different then Boy Scouts. I can tell you that from day one of Venturing, I have NEVER seen a youth wear the trained strip. And there is certainly no guidance as to if/how one is to wear a trained strip and a VLSC strip together (obviously one on top of the other, but which is one top? There was talk 2-3 years ago about further courses like "Mentoring Others" and "Teaching Others" which would ALSO have strips, and the idea is the youth would wear them all, one on top of the other). The VLSC strip has NOT been done away with. However, considering some of the radical changes they have planned for some of the youth training courses like VLSC, Kodiak, etc, I won't hold my breath. "I actually liked the color combo of the VLSC strip, and was hoping national would come outwith a trained strip in those colors. Saw an unoffical one, and it loooks spiff." Would agree. I have a few of those. While I am pretty much a uniform purist, I have no issues with those strips, tho I don't wear one (or any trained strip), in part because there is no official training for my position...

"Actually the literature I'm looking at does NOT show or state that trained patch is even worn with the venturing uniform, let alone which trained patch." Uh, using National Supply as a resource doesn't work. In fact, the World Crest is too far down in those pictures. Its supposed to be centered between the pocket and the shoulder seam. If you check out the Venturing literature or even the Insignia Guide, you will see that both youth and adults in Venturing may wear the Trained strip. We always had. Adults who have completed basic training and youth who have completed Crew Officer Orientation may wear the trained strip.

Actually, the red & white numbers are for BOTH Cub Scouts and their leaders AND Venturers and their leaders. We do not wear the green/tan numbers on the forest green Venturing uniforms. Also, there are 2 trained strips: a green/tan one and a gold/red one. The gold/red one are for Cub Scout leaders and Venturers & Venturing leaders, while the green/tan one are for Boy Scouts and their leaders. Again, there is a lot of confusion about that one, as I have some insist that Venturing wear the new green/tan trained strip and claim the gold/red is ONLY for Cub Scout leaders...

"This is a grey area that is subject to interpretation in our quarters." This is NOT a gray area. Unit numbers have ALWAYS been worn touching the CSP. The office patch should touch the numbers, and the trained strip should touch it. There should be NO gaps between the patches on your left sleeve. The only exception is for non-unit leaders who do NOT wear unit numbers, and must leave a gap where they would be between the CSP and office patch. HOWEVER, on the right sleeve, most patches do NOT touch one another.

"The Lone Scout program published a magazine for awhile and across the masthead it read, "The Real Boys' Magazine". After awhile, it was changed to "The White Boys' Magazine" (circa 1930's)." First off, you are not speaking about the "Lone Scout program" of the BSA, but the separate organization, the Lone Scouts of America. The LSA was established by William Boyce in 1920 and lasted as a separate and independent organization from the BSA until some time in the late 30s or so. The magazine you are refering to was published by the LSA, NOT the BSA. This matter was addressed in Mitch Reis' history of the Lone Scouts of America. Apparently the 'issue' of the LSA allowing non-whites was 'brought up' within the organization (by who, no idea; brought up to who, no idea) and it was decided (no idea by who) that it was 'in the best interests of the organization not to admit blacks' (or something to that affect, tho how they could control this as each lone scout was 'on their own' and turned in their info). I find it strange that Boyce allowed this in light of the claim that when he incorporated the BSA, he wanted the BSA to be open to all youth (hear this claim, no idea if true).

That's what it is. But, to me, it doesn't LOOK like a Boy Scout Anniversary stamp...

My comments. I prefer a two-toned uniform (different color pants/shirt). If you drop the loops, drop the epaulets. The World Crest needs to stay, as its the universal sign we are all part of world scouting. The scouts in other countries wear it, why not us? Training strip should stay, but it doesn't have to be big. The ones they had before the previous red & gold one were much smaller. I'd prefer smaller patches, and maybe more woven ones (not as bulky). I really don't know about the necker. I hated it as a kid. It looked dorky, and dealing with the slide was a pain (I probably lost a few slides). Knoting it really didn't work. If you wear a necker, it should either go on top of the collar or have no collar. When I was able to get a collared shirt as a youth, that's all I wore, with a bolo tie (most scouting related. then I got a SE Region one at Jambo and that became my main bolo tie until I got beads). I've been going thru my collection of Scouting magazines. The ones from the 70s have several color photos of kids in uniform at the time (the old 'green-khaki- pre-ODL uniform). This is what I wore as a scout. Very rarely, and then its usually an adult, does someone look half-way decent in that uniform. Most, especially the kids, it looked horrible. The only thing worse then neckers was that damn red beret. Yeah, I wore that too (that was our troop hat). I hated it because we were never able to get it to look like the berets worn by soldiers in the movies. I wish they'd bring back the campaign hat (in correct colors to match the current boy scout shirt, and maybe one for Venturing in gray). Those were sharp, tho not practical. I think some kids would jump at that hat, IF made right.

"Rather than looking for the history showing that the Scouts were a mirror of their times, I would be interested in any stories of Troops that broke the barrier in advance of the general public." Actually, in general, scouting DID. Which is what the people attaching scouting don't realize. Scouting was open to youth of all religions, at a time that this wasn't so in our general society. The Founder of APO was impressed by this and noted it in our founding information. As a National organization, there were NO National policies barring blacks, or any other minorities. Any such policies were local policies. Same for various religious groups. H. Roe Bartle, a long-time Scout Executive in Kansas City had to deal with an angry mob upset that he appointed a Catholic to the position of Commissioner (can you believe that). He faced them down and that ended it. Early people within the BSA worked to help place Native American youth as "Indian Lore" counselors at scout camps. This included Charles Eastman, himself a Sioux Indian. the BSA established a bureau to help bring scouting to negro and other minority youth early on (forerunner to the recent 'Scoutreach' group?). Was there discrimination within scouting? Yes. We know of segregated camps, districts, troops. But was this due to National BSA policy, written or unwritten? No. It was due to local councils/units bowing to local 'behavior' (for lack of a better term).