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Mike Long has far more experience in this area than I do. I too personally prefer external frame packs, but I do not have Mike's depth of experience. I have a question for Mike. The biggest problem I have observed with youth and backpacks, regardless of manufacturer or style, is that most new scouts are too skinny for the waistbands. Consequently it is very difficult to get the packs to ride properly on their hips. It would be great if manufacturers would come out with skinny waistbands one could purchase separately and substitute when necessary. Any thoughts on this subject?

I functioned as an OA chapter advisor for two years, so I think my knowledge is pretty accurate. I presume that you are talking about youth eligibility. There is no minimum requirement for membership in a unit. A scout must be first class and meet the nights camping requirement. Six of those nights must be in a "long term" camp operated under the auspices of BSA. This usually means summer camp. However, for any 24 month period, only one session at summer camp can be counted. In other words, if a scout goes to a regular summer camp two years in a row, only one of those sessions is counted. The balance of the nights camping must be met in "short term" events, which are undefined. In our troop we have always counted any non-summer camp nights to meet the total. The practical effect of the way nights camping are accumulated is that it becomes very difficult for any youth to qualify in less than two years, unless he belongs to a very active unit and participates in every camping event. I have never seen any criteria spelled out for scoutmaster approval. I have heard that some troops arbitrarily impose a requirement of two years membership. There is nothing in the OA requirements that prohibits this, but as an OA advisor I discouraged it when I was asked. If the troop wants to raise the bar for eligibility, there is little the OA or anybody else can do about it, because the information about eligibility is compiled at the unit level. When a scoutmaster has sent me a list of eligibles prior to an election, I accepted it as accurate and approved by the scoutmaster. I trust scoutmasters and all scouters until somebody demonstrates they are unworthy of trust. If a scoutmaster believes that a particular scout may be too young to appreciate and understand what the OA is all about, and therefore leaves such a scout off the list, I would have no problem with that judgment.

chanoneescouter: Where do you get those bumper stickers?

The following comes from the Ft. Lauderdale newspaper online. Boy Scout groups moving from schools, disbanding after School Board threat By BILL HIRSCHMAN Sun-Sentinel Web-posted: 9:35 p.m. Mar. 12, 2001 More than half of Broward County's Boy Scout troops and Cub Scout packs have moved their meetings out of school buildings or disbanded rather than be evicted by the School Board over the Scouts' policy banning gays. The South Florida Boy Scouts Council and the School Board will clash in a Miami courtroom today in what they believe is a precedent-setting case about the rights of governments and private organizations to control their own destinies. The Scouts have asked the U.S. District Court for a preliminary injunction to block the board from refusing to let the Scouts meet on school property as of March 31. Nearly 2,000 Scouts were meeting regularly in schools, and the council has representatives in most elementary and middle schools one night each fall to recruit. But 22 of the 57 Boy Scout troops and Cub Scout packs using schools already have moved their meeting places, primarily to churches, said Jeffrie Herrmann, Scout executive. Nine others, primarily in "high-risk neighborhoods," have disbanded in part because "tenuous leadership" was unable to deal with "the absolute chaos" caused by the controversy, he said Monday. That figure is not typical of the number of troops that collapse during a normal year, Herrmann said. School district officials have contended since September the Scouts' ban on gay members and leaders violated a nondiscrimination clause in their agreement to use school facilities. The council's lead counsel has been Miami attorney Sharon Kegerreis. But she said Monday the national organization also was bringing in George Davidson to argue at the 4:30 p.m. hearing in Miami before Judge Donald Middlebrooks. Davidson was the Scouts' attorney who won the Dale case before the U.S. Supreme Court last year. The high court held that the Scouts' rights as a private organization to hold any belief superseded a New Jersey law that forbids discrimination by a group seemingly open to the public. But that does not address whether the Scouts can be banned from public facilities. The Scouts say the school district is unfairly choosing which groups to ban; the district agues that the Scouts breached a binding contract not to discriminate. The Broward School Board voted Nov. 14 to evict the Scouts in 30 days, then agreed to an extension so that both sides would have time to develop legal arguments. The Scouts' lawsuit filed Dec. 4 claimed the district is violating the First and Fourteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution by denying Scouts the right of free expression and the right of equal access to public facilities. The Scouts claim the district's policy is so broad it outlaws any group that targets a particular age or sex or belief system, including Brownies, boys' choirs and church groups, none of which are being evicted. But School Board Attorney Ed Marko has argued that while those groups may target certain people as members, they don't refuse to serve them. Superintendent Frank Till has repeatedly said he also would recommend evicting other groups that discriminate. But Kegerreis has said the School Board members were aware that other groups discriminated when they voted to evict the Scouts, but took no action against them.

I have never had to deal with this kind of situation. I agree with Mike Long. Whatever happened to the idea of redemption? If the boy is willing and able to learn from his experience, and help others to learn, there is some good to be gained. I certainly would not act hastily to simply run the kid out out of Dodge. I would put the boy, and his parents, on notice that his eagle is in jeopardy, but I would make it a committee decision.

After I posted my original reply, I realized there was much more to say. Since these kinds of activities normally fall under the responsibility of governmental agencies and are done on public lands, you need to think of all the federal, state, and local agencies in your area that you can contact. I would start locally with your park district or flood control district if there is one. Larger corporations that have significant real estate holdings would probably love cub scout involvement, and provide all the other resources to boot. What about reclamation projects on strip mined land? These often involve reforestation at some stage of reclamation, and the mining companies would love the favorable publicity of a bunch of cub scouts in uniform planting seedlings provided by the company. Think of the major coal mining companies in your area. Hope this helps.

Please tell us a little more about where you live. Conservation projects obviously vary by climate and terrain and are very local. In Southern California, our cub scout pack got involved in reforestation after some particularly bad fires. Where we live now, stream restoration and cleanup is more common and always needed.

This will be my last response to LeRoy's continued insulting attitude. I neither disagree nor disagree that public schools can be chartered organizations. You have raised an issue that indicates that such charter relationships are in jeopardy. That is potentially useful information and we thank you for that.

As I was saying, get a life. You seem to think that everbody with a different viewpoint is stupid or supportive of discrimination. You are the one pushing intolerance in this thread. Suggest you read another thread under "issues and politics" about discrimination against agnostics. Your points about what the military does and does not require are well taken. From my understanding of the situation of the Randall twins, I think the local cub scout leader behaved very foolishly. I think the boys' father was every bit as foolish. If some youth, parent, or adult volunteer, objects to the scout oath, and the twelfth point of scout law, they are welcome not to join. I personally would not have handled the Randall twins the way they were handled initially as cub scouts. Even if the scouts have no policy on religious belief comparable to the policy on avowed homosexuals, there is still the requirement for eagle rank that applicants provide a letter from a "religious leader." I heard about a more recent case where two boys were suing about their right to an eagle rank. I don't know, but I infer that this is the same Randall twins. I also don't know the status of this more recent case. It could be that these youth ran afoul of the specific eagle requirement. So what? If such youth want to be as adamant in their views as to not meet the rank requirements, they have made a personal choice. The statement of "religious principle" as I understand it would not preclude an atheist from being a volunteer. The statement does not require that the adult be a believer, but that the adult support the scouts' view that a duty to god matters. It would be entirely possible for an atheist adult to be supportive of believer youth in a manner consistent with the statement of religious principle. This would be no different than an adult follower of a particular religious belief system supporting youth with different beliefs. Contrary to the unfortunate treatment in the media, scouting is a large tent. The only line drawn in the sand is on open homosexualtiy. It is unfortunate that the ACLU persists in its war on religion. It does that organization little credit.

Dear Mr. Leroy, Get a life. While your contribution to this thread has been informative, your logic in your last shot at jmquillan is flawed to say the least, and totally uncalled for. I visited the ACLU sites you referred to. Very helpful. Needless to say, my previously negative view of the ACLU has been reinforced. This of course leaves open the question of how these charters will be handled. Interesting question concerning Scott AFB. If the allegation is that the government is improperly supporting religious belief in accepting charters from BSA, how does that square with the military providing chaplains, whose salaries are paid by taxpayers, and chapels on bases? While the ACLU may be able to beat up on local governments, it seems to me that a different set of hurdles crop up where the feds are concerned. I suspect that there are scout units chartered on most military bases, both in the US and in foreign lands, where there are large numbers of dependents present. What policy prescription would prevent the military from cooperating with youth programs like scouts in isolated areas where there are no alternative sponsors, when the military more actively promotes religion with chaplains and facilities dedicated to worship?

The ACLU sues so many groups and governmental bodies at all levels all the time, you will forgive us if we are not aware of the Illinois cases. It would be more productive if Merlyn_Leroy would be less sarcastic and more informative. Concerning "duty to god," I am aware of the Randall twins, although I don't know the current status. I don't think I have heard of the Sherman case. Why don't you POLITELY bring us up to date. My view is that the "duty to god" is so vague as to likely fit under any umbrella if a governmental body such as a school board chose to address the issue. I don't think that scouts is asking anybody to "enforce" all the scouts policies simply by granting a charter. "Enforcement" is more up to the unit committee. Be that as it may, local councils and concerned parents and leaders would be wise to consider these issues if the charter partner is in fact a governmental body.

Mt. Diablo Silverado Council Sponsors are mostly church affiliated groups for troops. Don't know about cub units. I am now aware of any loss of sponsorship or meeting facilities in our council. There have been losses of access to public facilities in other communities in other councils in the San Francisco Bay area. By the by - One of the predecessor councils, the Mt. Diablo Council, was a defendant in one of the earlier gay rights cases, Curran vs Mt. Diablo etc. As in New Jersey, the Curran case was brought under California laws governing conduct of a business. The California Supreme Court, unlike the New Jersey court, did not conclude that the scouts were a business subject to these laws.

To reinforce Mike Long's point, personal insults have no place in these forums. To the issue: It is not obvious that any given public school could not charter a unit if it chose to do so, regardless of scouts' policies on homosexuals. There is developing case law where schools have attempted to exclude youth prayer groups from the school grounds and the youth groups have prevailed. However, chartering is different from mere recognition or providing facilities. Hopefully local councils will be on their toes and start identifying alternative charter partners, or encouraging parents to create their own non profit corporations for that purpose. I was not aware that public schools held charters or that the numbers were as great as stated here.

Gee gang, compared to other organizations I thought scouting was doing pretty good. I can't honestly say if scout spirit has declined from some golden past. To the extent that scout spirit has declined and this is reflected in the general conduct of the members, this is largely a reflection of declines in behavior and standards in the larger society. (Think Bill Clinton, Latrell Sprewel, and Grammies for Eminem) I can think of one incident several years ago where the winning car in a Pinewood Derby cheated. But on the whole, tacky behavior is less prevalent in scouting than what I have observed in schools and youth sports in particular. Scouting is a human institution run by humans. While we set high standards for ourselves, we are all still in some ways weak. My closing thought is to avoid counsels of despair and each in our own way try to do "our best" to set the best example.

Thank you. One has to print onto legal paper, depending on the printer margins.

My local council office cannot provide me with a current version of a national tour permit application. I believe that there is a 1999 version of this form. Does anybody know where I might find this on line?

Well this is a new wrinkle. There are different companies that are cutting off their direct cash contributions, but this is a new one. I am not aware of any national policy by Sears on this subject. Chances are it was a decision taken by a local manager.

The following paragraphs were written recently by Peggy Noonan, a journalist and commentator in a larger piece in which she wrote about taking her young son to meet Ronald Reagan. Whatever you may think about the Gipper, the words shed some light on what motivates scouters, and are worthy of reflection, particularly in light of the controversies about appropriate role models. "The young are moved by greatness. They are inspired by it. Children need heroes. They need them to lift life, to suggest a future you can be hungry for. They need them because heroes, just by being, communicate the romantic and yet realistic idea that you can turn your life into something great. The key, of course, is to have the right heroes--to be lifted by greatness and not just by glamour, to be lit by the desire to do good, as opposed to the desire to do well. The lesson, compliments of three presidents: Be brave, have guts, do what you think right no matter the cost, and mean it, be sincere, it's not a game. Do these things and you will be remembered, whoever you are, whatever you are, with love and gratitude. Fail to do them and you'll wind up an object of embarrassment and derision."

It will be interesting to learn about what the COR is really suppposed to do. As committee chair in another unit in Southern California I assumed responsibility for the re chartering process and that is as close as our sponsor ever got. We had a dad who was a member of the church who took on that title, but he never did anything out of the ordinary in that capacity. There is no prohibition against volunteers wearing multiple hats, but the practice is to be discouraged. Only recently has a sponsoring organization for a unit I have been involved with offered to do anything other than sign the charter application. Our units have been totally responsible for their own funds and own budgets. Our new COR is not a parent, but a member of the sponsoring organization and is actually coming to committee meetings. This is great! When you mention "annual meeting," whose annual meeting are you talking about? The sponsor's or the unit's?

It surprises me to hear of camos being banned at scout events in some areas. It strikes me that there are more important things to worry about. Having said that, I would be concerned if an entire unit showed up at Camporee or some similar event entirely in camos. While Scouting enjoys an outstanding relationship with the military across the board, and I for one am proud of my own military service, I would not want to see scouting identified in peoples' minds as a youth paramilitary organization.

I haven't been involved in Cubs for several years now, but it does seem easier to generate excitement and momentum at that level. Maybe that's because the boys themselves aren't trying to act too sophisticated. One of the most enjoyable years I had as an adult leader was when our new cubmaster when berserk in recruiting and doubled the size of the pack in one month at the start of a school year. We all had to scramble, but it was a great year. There is a wealth of material available. As P_Swigs says, get your people to training as soon as possible. This will make them far more effective and comfortable in their understanding of the program. Have fun.

My first real introduction to snow camping and real heavy woolen clothing was in Sam's army in Germany many years ago. While I am partial to wool personally, I would be more inclined to use newer synthetics just for ease of maintenance. It also comes back to what you are really doing. In the army, even on winter maneuvers, physical activity was pretty minimal and sporadic. If one was working hard serving a crew weapon, one shed layers. But a lot of time there was no activity, such as standing guard. That clothing was heavy and not conducive to a lot of activity. Since you sometimes were not generating your own heat you needed the extra insulation. If you are doing something active like skiing or snowshoeing, I would think that sheer weight would be a factor. Thoughts?

Mike I would not have attempted such a conversation in front of other people, but might have tried a phone call. One never knows for sure how someone else will react to such a conversation. Keeping it more private at least limits the potential damage. To all Healthy competition among units can be a good thing if competition leads to better programs all around. There is not much one can do about someone who is defensive and conniving in their approach to these things, other than continue to put one's own best foot forward.

There is a natural rivalry among troops that can lead to this kind of badmouthing. Sometimes the boys do it on their own, and sometimes adults may encourage it by example. This is one place where I part company with Mike Long. A polite scoutmaster to scoutmaster conversation might be appropriate, depending on how well the two get along otherwise. It could be that some inadvertent behavior by the adults in the other units is encouraging this sort of thing. Scheduling events to which you invite Webelos participation is an extremely effective recruiting vehicle. We also try to pay attention to the parents who show up for the troop visitations. They always have a lot of questions and genuinely appreciate the opportunity for such discussions. Right now, with a shift in our area towards a more youthful population with children, we are experiencing a surge in interest. I worry that the council will pressure us to split our troop if it gets too large.

Another reason that tents have never come up as an item of troop equipment fo us is that so many families in our area have camped and even backpacked before the boys were old enough to join scouts. Thus most of our new scouts come into the troop with a leagacy of gear including backpackable tents. I agree that a patrol or troop with uniform tentage is am impressive site, but one we do without.