eisely

A one man show is not the way to go. Is there anyone at the district level such as your unit commissioner, district commissioner, district chair, or even district executive, who can talk to this person?

We have not made a big deal of LNT camping in our troop. It is just part of the way that we do business. Many of the designated wilderness areas available to us in California have tough requirements regarding sanitation. It will be interesting to see how our scouts take to that. I agree with Bob White about the tent colors and clothing colors. Frankly I want bright colors to make it easier for others to find us if there ever should be a need.

I don't want to give the impression that I was trying to be offensive. When the expression "single elimination" was used, I took that to mean a single heat per car. It has been four years since I was involved in a Pinewood Derby. As I recall, we usually had a three lane track. We would run three heats for the same three cars, ensuring that each car ran in each lane. This was an attempt to allow for differences in the lanes themselves.

Depending on how many tracks, space, and boys you have, I think some kind of double elimination is fairer and more appropriate. When we did Pinewood Derby, that was all we did for that Pack meeting. No awards or anything else. You also need to award prizes for creativity of design, paint jobs, and anything else you can think of.

In most circumstances, ten feet should be the minimum, and further is better. In my mind, there is one exception to this general rule. Occasionally it may be necessary to stay put in a camp site because of adverse weather. I once built a very small fire under cover of a tarp in a downpour to provide some heat for drying clothes. As long as it is raining, there is little risk of a spark starting an unwanted fire. Obviously, real judgment has to be used as to the feasibility, desirability, and necessity of a fire under these conditions.

How's that for a rhyme? As many scouters and parents are aware, local United Way organizations are coming down hard on local BSA councils for excluding out of the closet homosexuals from the organization. While one can still specify one's payroll deduction be paid to a BSA council, BSA in many areas no longer has access to the general pool of funds that is allocated to all United Way beneficiaries. Apparently the national United Way does not want to kick the scouts out of United Way in general since the national BSA was one of the founding charities of United Way as we know it after World War II. So it is a dilemma for scouts, local United Way board members subject to pressure, and individual doners who may think that scouts are getting something out of United Way. I know of at least one BSA council in the midwest that actually got more out of United Way after the July Supreme Court ruling, even though there were excluded from the general pool of funds by the local United Way organization. That United Way then had the audacity to approach the local council to ask for a piece of the scouts' pie. The council politely declined. Of course scouts now has FOS. Persons like myself are subject to some pressures to support United Way at work (San Francisco bay area) and I do so, specifying that my contribution goes to my BSA council. I am more generous with FOS. It would be interesting to hear about the experiences of scouters in other parts of the country.

Since you are buying a stove for your son, you need to consider the quality of the supervision in the troop he will be participating in. Liquid fuels are not prohibited and are more versatile. I have used both liquid and butane stoves. Without a high level of training and supervision, non liquid fuel stoves are in my mind safer for most scouts. If you are going to be doing a lot of winter camping, then liquid fuel is probably the way to go.

After I posted this originally on January 11, I discussed it briefly with our unit committee chair at our committee evening that evening. He is an active member of reform jewish synagogue and was very well aware of the controversy. He told me that he was very upset with his local rabbi, who took it upon himself to write letters to all the youth in the synagogue whom he knew to be eagle scouts, telling the youth that they should renounce their eagle awards. Needless to say, our chair, whose son received one of these letters, is not a happy camper. Now I ask you: Who is being intolerant and hostile to whom?

I found the following on the internet today: Jewish Group Splits With Scouts Over Gay Ban Thursday, January 11, 2001 By Adrienne Mand Jewish groups across the country find themselves torn over new guidelines in the Reform movement calling on synagogues and parents to break their ties with the Boy Scouts of the America because of the group's ban on gay leaders. AP/Wide World Reform Jewish leaders are speaking out against a Boy Scout ban on gay leaders. In a letter to Reform movement congregations, the Joint Commission on Social Action says the Scouts' policy is "incompatible with our consistent belief that every individual regardless of his or her sexual orientation is created in the image of God and is deserving of equal treatment." Soon after the recommendation, Temple Judea in Coral Gables, Fla., severed its ties with the Scouts after 49 years of sponsoring a troop. Members voted unanimously for the action. The Reform movement, which includes about 1,000 congregations and 40 percent of America's 6 million Jews, ordains openly gay men and women as rabbis, and its Joint Commission on Social Action fought against the Scouts during the legal process that culminated with the Scouts' Supreme Court victory in June. Jewish Scout leaders are obviously not pleased with the move, and other sectors of the faith have stood behind the Scouts throughout the debate. Even some Reform Jews are questioning the Joint Commission's decision. "I think the call to sever ties with the Boy Scouts was an exaggerated response and overbroad, unnecessary and strangely reactionary," said Rabbi Clifford Librach of Temple Sinai in Sharon, Mass. Rabbi Daniel Polish, director of the Joint Commission, said the recommendations were prompted by questions from congregations trying to reconcile the Scouts' policies with their own inclusion of gays and lesbians. "We recognize the value of scouting. We know that it can be a very significant formative experience for a young man," Polish said. "(But) part of what they're transmitting to young men is stereotypical and prejudiced points of view." Jerrold Lockshin, chairman of the National Jewish Committee on Scouting, said the committee has not officially reacted to the Joint Commission's edict, but expressed dismay. The group represents all branches of the religion, including Orthodox Judaism, whose national organizations have fought in court on behalf of the Scouts. "I think there are many more important things in Judaism for the Reform movement to be active about," said Lockshin. Richard Schwadron, scoutmaster of Troop 11 at St. Louis' Congregation Temple Israel, said the synagogue's membership is currently debating the issue. "You have to be aware of people's feelings, and you have to be considerate," he said, "but at the same time, you're trying to provide leadership and role models in front of youth." His troop has been actively involved in holiday celebrations and other programs at the temple, he said, but "by the same token, I understand they're reacting to the proper political-correctness of the moment." Many secular groups, from school districts to corporations and charities, have turned on the Scouts since the June decision. New York City and San Diego schools have stopped sponsoring troops, and several Florida schools have forbidden the Scouts from using their facilities, stating that doing so violates the districts' non-discrimination policies. "The issue should be on developing the boys' character and all the things scouting has stood for for 90 years." Paul Kramer And the Scouts and their supporters have fought back. In Florida, the Scouts sued some of the school districts that kicked them out, claiming that school officials denied them their right to free expression and equal access to public facilities. Elsewhere, parents have vowed boycotts of companies and organizations that withhold funding. Lockshin said that while the Reform movement's protest will affect Jewish Scouts, it will not impact the organization as a whole because "one quarter of 1 percent of kids in scouting are Jews." While there are about 35,000 Jewish scouts affiliated with non-Jewish troops, about 8,000 kids belong to troops affiliated with synagogues or Jewish organizations. The fear is that boys will miss out if those congregations end their relationships. "They'll go to a troop somewhere else, and it might not be a Jewish-affiliated troop. I think that is a loss," said Paul Kramer, a Baltimore attorney who serves on the local, regional and national Jewish Committee on Scouting. "The issue should be on developing the boys' character and all the things scouting has stood for for 90 years." But enforcement of the recommendations remains to be seen, as Polish noted that they are just guidelines. "Every congregation is free in the end to weigh these issues as it chooses and come to the decision it wants, as is every parent," he said. "If a parent feels very strongly that they want their child to be in scouting, that is their decision." The Associated Press contributed to this report

Canoe float trips are one of the neater things that scouts do. Normally there is not a great deal of risk attached and it is less demanding than backpacking, so younger scouts and less fit or older adults can easily participate. In April of 1999 I had an interesting experience that is worth sharing. We made a 25 mile trip on the Colorado River, going in below Hoover Dam. From Hoover Dam to the Gulf of California the Colorado is now a series of lakes. There is no whitewater in April, but there can be high winds. Three out of the four days we were paddling into headwinds of up to thiry knots. This was hard work with a lot of wave action with some swells as high as three feet from peak to trough. When we got to our take out point we encountered another scout unit that had put in at another point further downstream from our start at about the same time and had originally planned to go much further. They were calling it quits after about 12 miles. They told us that all of their canoes had swamped at one time or another, they had lost equipment, and really had a tough, even dangerous time. All their boys were older, stronger and more experienced than our guys. They were also heavier. While we had worked hard, we never come close to swamping a single canoe. The difference was in the canoes themselves. There are publications on canoe camping. The general recommendation is that a loaded canoe should have at least 8 inches of freeboard. Freeboard is the distance from the surface of the water to the lowest point on the gunwhale of the canoe in the middle of the canoe. The canoes provided by our outfitter were OldTown touring canoes which were themselves lighter than water. While our canoes were made of synthetic material, they would float without separate flotation tanks in the bow and stern to provide bouyancy when swamped. Our canoes had a rated carrying capacity of 1060 lbs. That is two people and a lot of stuff with freeboard to spare. The troop that was calling it quits was using heavy fiberglass canoes made by Coleman. These canoes were themselves more dense than water and had flotation tanks. Their carrying capacity was only 600 lbs. I think this unit owned their own canoes. With two good size humans, and gear and food for several days per canoe, they did not have the amount of freeboard necessary for safe canoeing in those conditions and they ran into trouble. Fortunately nobody was hurt. It sure opened my eyes up. Although I am an experienced canoeist, I would not have thought that the manufacture of the canoe itself could make so much difference. The lesson is: if you are buying or renting canoes, make sure that you understand the carrying capacity of the canoes in question and that they are satisfactory for your purpose. As for me, Coleman should stick to stoves and lanterns that they do very well, and get out of the canoe business. Often the extra dollars do make a difference in the quality and suitability of the equipment.

As the one who posed the question, I would like to make a positive suggestion. Among those participating in this dialogue there is a clear consensus that agnostics should not, and are not as a matter of policy, excluded from belonging to BSA. In posing the question I forgot about the Eagle requirement for a letter from the scout's "religious leader." My original concern in posing the question was what I perceived to be a steady drumbeat of negative media coverage about scouts concerning the policy on homosexuality that so often would throw in a statement about scouts' alledged exclusion of agnostics. Such throw away assertions were never supported with any evidence, but just added in to the story on the other scout policy that has become so controversial. I suggest that those who care about the accurate portrayal of scouts in the media should take it upon themselves to write corrective emails or letters to news media whenever they see this false assertion popping up. If the assertion that scouts exclude agnostics is false, then those of us who care should assume the responsibility of responding with correct information. Also, for what it is worth, I think that the most effective way of making youth aware of God is to get them out from in front of the TV or computer monitor and into the outdoors. When youth see the beauty and complexity of God's creation, they are capable of drawing their own conclusions. Two other simple, unobjectionable vehicles are to incorporate "scout's own" into outings, and to say a non denominational grace before meals. At a recent OA ordeal for which I was responsible, I think I shocked the assembled masses by not allowing the very hungry people into the mess hall until hats had been removed and we had recited the Philmont grace. One minute is all it takes.

It must really rain a LOT where Mike Long is backpacking. His suggestions are very sound for canoeing and/or whitewater rafting trips. We also advise scouts to pack individual items of clothing in Ziplocks inside their packs. However, living and packpacking West of the Rockies, where it is more arid, I have found a commercially produced pack cover to be quite sufficient. The rainfall we get during backpacking season is less frequent, less drenching, and shorter in duration.

The amount of time consumed just handing out awards in a large pack meeting can be a drag from the perspective of young boys. Even adults can get bored with it. One thing we did when our sons were in a large pack to expedite this process somewhat was to hand out individual awards only for major rank advancements such as the Wolf, Bear, Webelos, and Arrow of Light badges. Arrow points and individual Webelos activity badges were placed in an envelope. The boys were called forward, their accomplishments read off, and the envelope handed to the den leader. This provided the public recognition that we all wanted to see happen, but greatly shortened the time involved in handing awards to individual boys. We found it more effective to leave that to the den leader, leaving more time at the pack meeting for games or other programs.

Having been to Philmont only once, in 1995, I may not be the best person to answer this question. The "bull" patch has been around for as long as I can remember, even as a scout. It probably has been around longer than the Philmont arrowhead patch. The troop I was with in Southern California propagated a similar piece of folklore about the bull, and as folklore it is not bad. As far as I know, there is no special significance atttached to the bull patch officially. The bulls were freely availble for purchase in the Philmont trading post. The arrowheads were handed out only at the closing campfire after we had returned to the base camp. I bought enough bulls for our crew out of my own funds, just so everyone would have one. Anyone know anything different?

Many districts put on a camporee type event for Webelos under various names. The boys camp and participate in competitive events that are age and skill appropriate.

I agree with you Old Greyeagle. An atheist denies the existence of god. An agnostic accepts the existence of god, but believes that god is unknowable, and therefore would logically reject organized religion generally. Does this automatically mean that an agnostic is incapable of performing a "duty to god?" Hopefully others will share some of their experiences and insights to this subject.

Now that the subject of BSA policy towards homosexuals has been thoroughly aired, I thought I would bring up the "Duty to God" question. Most stories in the general news media never fail to mention the BSA also excludes agnostics whenever they do a story on the BSA policy on out-of-the-closet homosexuals. The context in which this information is presented in those news stories is uniformaly negative, in order to present a picture of BSA as a horribly prejudiced organization. So what is the BSA policy on agnostics? I personally am aware of only one instance several years ago in Orange County California where duty to god became an issue. If I recall the incident correctly there were two twin boys in cub scouts who were being raised as atheists by their father who was publicly atheist in his views. That is fine, since it is that father's right to raise his sons in any belief, or non belief, system he thinks is appropriate. The den leader involved was apparently a pretty devout believer, and was represented in the media as a strong right wing Christian conservative, although his affiliation was never published. According to the news stories of the time, when this den leader became aware that these two boys would not repeat the part of the Cub Scout promise dealing with duty to god, he, and presumably the rest of the adult leadership of the pack, tried to expel the boys from scouts. I don't really recall the outcome at that time. Apparently the boys stayed in, because more recently they were up for Eagle and the same issue arose, although the youth were now reported in the media as agnostics not atheists. Some would view that as progress. The boys are suing, or at least were suing again, the last I knew. There is a difference between atheism and agnosticism. There is also a huge difference, in my mind, between BSA policy in this area and BSA policy on homosexuality. Personally, if I as a scout leader, was seriously interested in helping non believer youth do their duty to god, seeking to expel them from the movement would be the last thing I would want to do. So, does anybody know if there is really a policy against agnostics as the media represent? Does anybody have any experiences to share in this area?

The Scouter Web Site also has a rather complete listing of all scout camps everywhere in the US, by state. Look under "places to go"

One further suggestion. We found that den leadership at the Webelos level is something that can be effectively shared. When no parent was able or willing to assume full responsibility for den leadership, we met as a group of parents and planned a year program around the activity badges. Each set of parents assumed responsibility for a month's program. With a nine month school year this worked out quite effectively. We still had to have a designated leader and that person agreed to attend Pack committee meetings and Roundtables. But that person did not assume the full obligation for all meetings for the entire cub year. This requires a cohesive group of parents who are willing and able to work with one another, but I think our Webelos program was stronger for it.

Our unit is being charged $225.00 per participant for a 10 day trek at Philmont the summer of 2001. This of course excludes the cost of getting there. We are anticipating a total cost per participant of up to $1,000.

One of the most difficult words for dedicated volunteers to get out of their mouths is "no." Funny that we have no problem saying no to our own kids, but when it comes to our own lives we have difficulty with it. By staying on until all the positions are filled you are inadverdently enabling the other parents to get a free ride. There comes a time when one has to move on. I suggest that you notify your unit commissioner, chartered organization representative, committee chair, and possibly the district executive of your intention to resign from all positions in the pack on a date certain, and stick to that commitment. Either the parents in the pack value the program or they do not. It would be unfortunate if the program floundered, or worst case, the pack dissolved because you stepped out, but that is not your problem. You want to move on and you have a right to do that. For your own sake and the health of the program do what you want to do. It is always hard to find replacements for key leaders, but every time I have been involved in this kind of transition, someone did step forward.

Running competitions among patrols is an effective way to build patrol spirit. I am not aware of any written materials on the subject. I would suggest keeping the competitions simple, frequent, and short term with immediate payoffs. There should be enough opportunity for every patrol to come out on top and get some immediate gratification to keep everybody in the game. Let me tell you about something I did once that yielded surprising results. The troops I have worked with, like many units, stage "pre camporee" events to practice the skills needed for the camporee competitions. One year, I bought some ribbon and made cheesy little awards at the pre camporee event. I handed some of these out at lunch time half way through the event. Nobody knew this was going to happen and all the scouts were caught by surprise. I was amazed at the effect hanging a piece of ribbon on a patrol flag had. The afternoon session got really intense. Even the more jaded sopohisticated older scouts pitched in during the afternoon to get their little piece of glory. Another scoutmaster I knew would occasionally bring a gallon of ice cream, paper bowls, and plastic spoons to troop meetings. This would go to the patrol that did best that evening on uniform inspections, or some other structured competitive activity. Needless to say the scouts loved it. You are limited only by your imagination.

I too noted that scouts in uniform were often strategically placed to be visible in Bush rallies during the campaign, and I too am somewhat troubled by this. While one can expect Bush as a president to be friendlier to the scouting movement, I still question the appropriateness of scouts appearing in uniform at political rallies. National should render some advice on this.

I am always amused at pictures in Scouter magazine showing members hiking through the woods or doing other things in full Class A uniforms. Clearly posed. I think the uniform question may be unsolvable. Having a single uniform suitable for all occasions is clearly impossible. The scouts may find it feasible to come out with satsifactory outdoor products, but there are so many options in the marketplace for outdoor wear, I doubt that the scouts could compete on price. Be all that as it may, there are two less expensive uniform items I still don't think the scouts have right: socks and hats. The scouts appear to have resisted for years coming out with a fabric broad brimmed hat for outdoor wear. The current boonie hat type product may be OK, but I would advise my scouts to buy something with a broader brim and a chin strap. The uniform socks are clearly not usable for serious purposes such as hiking. The fabric is wrong for that purpose and the weave is too coarse. The socks are often poorly made. I wear them only for dress occasions. The inability of the scouts to provide simple head and foot wear does not instill confidence.

One should also add that this man is now irrelevant.