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How does one address this with your scouts? Tough question. I agree strongly with the approach that Mike Long has taken. It is less simple for us in the San Francisco bay area. We did discuss this in committee but have not taken any conrete steps. I don't know what if anything has come up between the boys and our scoutmaster. The parents have mixed attitudes on this subject. In this part of the country the youth interested and involved in scouting are getting seriously mixed messages. There are popular TV programs (e.g. Will and Grace) that depict open homosexuality as quite normal. Most public schools have active programs to promote diversity, which includes embracing homosexualtiy as an acceptable life style. I have three sons, the youngest of whom just turned 15. The two older sons believe that homosexual marriage should be legalized. I know they didn't get that at home. The youngest disagrees with the scout policy of excluding gays. My wife and I do not teach homophobia so this has not disrupted the household. Part of the problem that the movement has is that it allows the media to set the agenda in depicting non acceptance as hatred. I think all the regular visitors to this forum would see a major distinction, but a lot of people do not. The good news is that the issue has not disturbed our scouting program. We just go on doing our thing as best we can.

The resident summer camps that I have attended where BSA wall tents were used as housing for campers provided small buckets of water and sand for this purpose. These tents were on platforms, and wall tents are much easier to get out of quickly than any fully enclosed tent that I can think of. Since these sites were in arid country, the water buckets served mainly to drown mice that sought out drinking water at night. They would fall in and could not escape. Every morning there were fresh deceased to dispose of. Another lesson in life (of some sort) for young minds.

If I thought I knew where this was going I would be very prescient indeed. There is no question that the society as a whole is more tolerant of homosexuals. That is a good thing. Just to be clear, I think that homosexuals have the same rights to live in peace and earn a livelihood as any other ciitizen. This does not mean that non profit value and faith based organizatins cannot, in my mind, fairly discriminate in employment and membership matters. Further I see so called hate crime legislation as unnecessary and possibly unconstitutional. As far as BSA is concerned, I don't see the threat of loss of financial support as a big deal. In those areas where United Way has become an issue the scouts have often done better on their own. United Way probably needs BSA more than BSA needs United Way. The two larger issues are loss of access to public facilities and attitudes of charter partners. Two reform Jewish synagogues in Broward County have recently severed their charter relationships and scouts have been kicked out of one Jewish community center. In Oak Park Illinois, the local Parent Teacher Organizations were charter partners for seven cub scout packs. The PTO decided they could not accept the scouts' policy and only one charter was apparently saved. Some other churches stepped in, but the program has been hurt. There is turmoil within the United Methodist church nationwide on this issue. In the end I think few charter relationships will be lost, and where that happens alternatives will be found. Parents themselves can form their own 501c3 corporation and get a charter. The biggest threat is access to public facilities. Nevertheless it is troubling when significant religous organizations turn away from scouts on this narrow issue. Last November one of the suburban papers here, Contra Costa Times, ran a forum on this issue. The letters from scouters supporting BSA policy overwhelmed the few letters critical of scouts. As I wrote at that time, I don't know if homosexuals are born or made, perhaps both. Lacking clear and convincing evidence that all homosexuals are born that way I continue to support the BSA policy. It is a cultural issue, like many, that has divided and will continue to divide this country. We are fortunate to live in a country where we can disagree and speak our opinion. Nevertheless I see the attitude of the so called Human Rights Campaign to discredit scouts and bring pressure everywhere they can, as highly divisive and intolerant, where there is ample room for disagreement. This has been a random rambling, but maybe readers will find it interesting.

Scouting has enjoyed strong relations over the years with a variety of societies dedicated to various sports, commerical activities, etc., in developing its merit badge program. If you look in the credits in the merit badge pamphlets you will often find some other organization identified as assisting scouting in developing the requirements for the badge, and contributing to the pamphlet. A close relative who is a ham radio operator was recently elected to the National Board of Directors of the American Radio Relay League, one of these cooperating organizations. He was immediately contacted by several gay ham radio operators insisting that the League should sever its relationship with the scouts and soliciting my relative's support for this view. He turned them down. This issue is not going to go away.

As long as we are going off on tangents, I thought I might respond to the point about violence in the media and youth violence today. I am neither an advocate of gun control nor a hunter. I think that introducing youth to firearms in the controlled context of scouting at organized camps is a healthy thing to do. Having said that, it would not bother me personally one bit to see all guns disappear forever. However, that would take divine intervention which I personally am not expecting. But it is interesting and informative to note that one European country, namely Switzerland, has a different gun culture and little gun violence. Gun ownership is very high, and even small villages have their target ranges and competitions. But you don't see the level of gun violence there that you see in the good ol USA. The conclusion is obvious: gun control per se will not solve the problem of gun violence. Gun violence is a cultural problem best addressed through programs like scouts.

I agree with Mike that it would be a mistake to expect powder to prevent blisters, and powder may make things worse. Foot powder is designed to prevent and/or treat certain types of fungus problems, not blisters.

I agree with both responses, and those practices reflect what we do in our troop. There are two additional points to be made. The boys need to also touch base with the advancement chair. We now have our records computerized using the "troopmaster" software package. When things are going well the advancement chair, who retains these electronic records, updates his files every meeting to capture those things that have been signed off. This provides the best possible backup for those boys who inevitably lose their books. There are also situations where a boy is not advancing. There is nothing wrong with the scoutmaster initiating a scoutmaster conference with a boy to find out what is going on. The purpose of such a conference is not to sign off requirements but to detect problems and provide encouragement. I concur that it is not the responsibility of the adult leaders to chase boys down just to sign books.

It is heartening to hear that some people are able to get good deals on tents. In the markets where I have shopped, I have never seen a good two person tent for under $100.00. Our local REI still extends a 10% discount to scout units. Of course that is 10% off of a fairly high price. I also concur that there is a quality difference associated with price.

In the units that I have been involved with, we always made tents a responsibility of the individual members. Tents are easily damaged, and people tend to take better care of their own stuff. Tents are a maintenance problem, and this needs to be considered in any decision about buying tents for the unit. Where will the tents be stored, and who will take care of them to see they are properly dried out and maintained after an outing? Be that as it may, there are at least three arguments for smaller tents rather than bigger tents. With bigger tents you are hampered in backpacking, as you point out. Another consideration is that, with a large group, finding campsites that can accommodate large tents can sometimes be a problem. With smaller two man tents, it is much easier to spot tents among trees and rocks where space may be limited. Further, larger tents tend to have higher profiles and consequently are also more difficult to manage under windy conditions. In my mind it is a bit of a luxury to have uniform tents within a unit. It is always interesting at camporees to see the variety of tents used within a single unit. The one tent related expenditure that units should consider is dining flies. These have a multitude of uses, and can even be used as backup tents for sleeping purposes in some situations. I am trying to persuade our committee to spring for these.

Question: Once a patrol attains this status, do they get to keep the star forever? Does the patrol have to "requalify" every year to retain the star?

The following story comes from Oak Park, Illinois. Apparently the chartered organizations last fall did not want to go along with BSA policy. Several renewals were rejected by the local council. Some of these cub scout packs will doubtless go out of business as a result. Originally published in local weekly paper called Oak Leaves. PTO stands for "parent teacher organization." Irving parents look at taking next step BY JONATHAN MESSINGER STAFF WRITER The Boy Scouts rejection of the Oak Park PTO Councils Cub Scout charter has parents struggling to determine their childrens futures in scouting. Jerry Ostergaard, a den leader for a second-graders at Irving, was an Eagle Scout just like his father. He'd like his son to have the same opportunity. My biggest concern in all of this is the boys, he said. The problem is that they end up losing out, so I'm going to do my darnedest to keep scouting here. Thats why he is meeting tonight with a group of parents to talk about self-chartering, at least for the next year. I havent discriminated against anyone and I dont plan on discriminating against anyone, he said. I'm just frustrated that the boys lose out. The Irving parents were the first of the seven Cub Scout packs in Oak Park to meet formally after receiving word last week that the Des Plaines Valley Council rejected their charter. Mary Scherer-Edmunds, a den leader and Irving PTO co-president said she was surprised by the rejection, and would look for alternate programs for her boys. Its not like I thought they'd embrace us she said. But I thought they would accept it as a tacit agreement. We felt that as PTOs, serving public schools, we could not abide by a policy of discrimination. At the meeting Monday, parents discussed what would happen next with the current pack at Irving said Kathy Egan, pack committee chairperson. For the parents who want to go forward were looking at how to do that, she said. The PTO can release the charter to them or let it expire and have them start up a new pack entirely. The consensus was to do whats easiest logistically. Egan said she would try to start a Camp Fire Boys and Girls group. The rejection stems from the Oak Park PTO Councils November letter attached to their charter, aligning themselves with the Village Diversity Statement instead of with the Boy Scouts of Americas ban on gay scout leaders. Roughly 300 children are involved in Oak Park scouting. The Beye pack re-chartered with Cornerstone Church back in November. Whittier pack leaders will meet tonight to discuss the situation. Irene Clute, PTO co-chair, said leaders at other schools will probably follow suit and meet in the coming week. I'd imagine everyone will be getting together because there isnt a lot of time, she said. Parents have until Feb. 28 to renew the current charter. Both sides stress there is no divisive air among parents. Ostergaard said he does not begrudge the PTO Councils decision, though he disagreed with it. Commenting on the national attention the matter has drawn 60 Minutes was at Monday nights meeting he said he hopes the story is told fairly. Some parents never joined after this, they felt strongly and thats their right, he said. I'm going to talk with parents (about self-chartering) and if they are interested in it or not I respect their decision. Debra Quantock-McCarey took her children out of the Cub Scouts in November. She too said there was no animosity among parents. This whole issue is so personal, she said. Every person has the right to their own opinion ... . We respect those that go on, but for us the BSA is wrong.

On Saturday at our council service center I picked up a new publication that national has prepared on the controversy over BSA policy on membership of homosexuals. It is publication number 02-493-5. The publication is very brief and doesn't contain any information that is new to anybody who has been following this issue closely. Nevertheless, those who are interested ought to take a look at it. It is refreshing to see National BSA being a little bit proactive for a change.

I have never heard of or seen anybody wearing anything other than street clothes to an ordinary meeting with a merit badge counselor. If you know that a particular merit badge counselor expects something different, you should adhere to his or her preferences. I presume that you are not thinking about merit badges with specific apparel requirements.

One of the new products on the market in recent years for camping in bear country is a plastic bear canister. Use of this system for securing food is highly recommended for LNT camping since trees are not damaged by bear bags. The bears in some parts of the Sierras have figured out bear bags and bear bags can no longer be considered safe. The canisters seem to be effective, but some backpackers object to the extra weight. Anybody have any experience with these things with real bears?

I've been to Gettysburg once, but never with Boy Scouts. The suggestion to see the electric map is a good one. This is a private display put on for profit. When I first saw the advertisements for the electric map I thought, "Oh great - a further degradation of hallowed ground, etc. etc. ..." But the map show gives the best overall perspective, particularly for those who may know very little about this event. Gettysburg was the bloodiest single battle ever to take place in North America, and probably the Americas.

The idea of the ribbons with the pins is one of the nicest things that scouts can do for mothers of scouts. I have not seen this done any other way. There is no requirement to use any ribbon out of the catalogue. You can design your own if you wish.

I don't know about recordings, but all these songs are published in songbooks.

Dear OldGreyEagle, We do indeed live in interesting times. The results of the last general election do reflect the cultural divides within our country. Neither economic policy nor matters of war or preace were on the agenda. The entire subtext was morality and its place in the public square. In your earlier contribution to this dialogue you allude to the impact of the entertainment industry on morality today. The same people who argue that exposure to entertainment has no impact on human behavior are the same people who sell hundreds of millions of dollars of advertising time on the same media based on the proposition that exposing viewers to 30 second spots can modify human behavior. If such expenditures have no effect, then a lot of very shrewd business people need to be removed from their positions. Hmmm. Do I detect an inconsistency here? I am not in favor of censorship, and parents do have a responsibility for controlling what their children are exposed to. Ha! Does anybody out there really believe they can fully control what their kids are seeing and listening to? Not even the Amish are fully successful in doing that. At least scouting gives parents a somewhat sheltered environment where their children can be momentarily diverted to something better. I want to keep it that way.

We just went through a big excercise of selecting cook kits for the patrols in our troop. I have no experience with CampMor products. Most of the cook kits offered in retail stores such as REI, where I do most of my shopping, are designed for smaller groups. If your patrols have more than four scouts in them and you expect more than four to show up for outings, you need pots of greater capacity. We ended up with one of the products out of the scout catalogue, not the Trail Chef. The exact name escapes me at this moment. One problem with most cook kits available in the market is that they are made to withstand an adult level of use, not the kind of abuse more likely to dished out by boys.

Hmm. I just noticed that I mispelled vindictive. Dear Old Greyeagle. I would take the moral decline back to the sixties. It started with Lyndon Johnson and Robert McNamara lying to the american public about their intentions in Southeast Asia. That, coupled with the explosion of a drug culture and so called sexual revolution has set the tone for public discourse on morality. Nixon also acted despicably, but Clinton has set a whole new standard for debasing the presidency. This is why scouting is more important than ever. I hate to sound corny, but we all need to stand tall and set the example in doing so. The issue about exclusion of homosexuals is a vexing issue. I work alongside homosexuals every day and enjoy good working relationships with them. They are fine people. This does not mean that I have to endorse every aspect of their lifestyles anymore than I expect them to endorse all my choices. To me the issue of homosexuality and youth organizations is a factual question about why some people are homosexuals and others are heterosexuals. As a matter of idealogical belief the outspoken leaders of the homosexual community maintain that they are all born that way. I have yet to see convincing evidence of that. If homosexuality is a matter of choice, then we as parents and scout leaders have both a right and a duty to choose what we think is right for our own sons and the sons that others entrust to us. There are many complexities involved in human sexual development and behavior that I do not pretend to fully understand. But until somebody convinces me that all homosexuals are really born that way, I see no reason for BSA to change its policy, and good reasons to maintain that policy. The continuing attacks on scouting are not based on goodwill but on intolerance for others, that is us, who hold different beliefs.

This has been an interesting thread with a civil discussion, as Mike Long points out. There was never any doubt in my mind that agnostics should not be excluded. As I implied earlier, I would not expel, or be part of any attempt to expel, any boy who declared himself to be an atheist. I also agree with the interpretation of the eagle requirement that may prevent some declared atheists from receiving their eagle. At that point I think a personal choice has been made by any such scout. I am also somewhat bemused to learn that there is an organization of agnostics. I would think an agnostic organization is an oxymoron. Is this a great country or what?

Since I chose the headline, it is obvious that I have little use for the ACLU either. Many years ago I was a contributor to the ACLU. Be that as it may, I also prefer to focus on the more positive things we can do. It has become increasingly clear to me that there is not a unanimous view within scouts on the advisability or correctness of the scouts' policies on homosexuals. The scouts' policy is one that I happen to agree with rather strongly. My purpose in posting these news stories is to raise awareness of this particular threat to the scouting movement. BSA will continue to do OK in funding. For every corporation that cuts out its funding under pressure, others will step forward. The real threat is loss of access to public facilities for meetings and other activities. I think the approach that the local council is taking in Broward County Florida to litigate against the school district is the correct approach. There are times when one has to stand up to abuse and discrimination by the thought police. One can still be civil while one does so.

I have to correct my previous statement. The total fee for our crew's twelve days at Philmont, including ten days on the trail, will also be $395. The smaller amount I cited earlier is just what we have already paid. The balance will be due in April. We still anticipate a total cost for everything of about $1000 per participant.

The following article describes yet another attempt to destroy the boys scouts as an effective organization because some people disagree with its policies. This comes from the local paper in San Luis Obispo. Fortunately I stopped supporting ACLU years ago. You'd thing we were talking about the Hitler Youth here. ACLU wants Scouts out of public building, Lopez campground Richard Jackoway The Tribune The Boy Scouts should pay up or abandon its traditional campgrounds of Camp French near Lopez Lake, according to the American Civil Liberties Union. Calling the Scouts policy of discrimination against gays and atheists tragically misguided, ACLU officials raised the possibility of lawsuits this week if the Camp French lease with the county and a separate lease in Atascadero are not changed or terminated. The ACLU petitioned the city of Atascadero to cut off use by the Scouts of a room in the Atascadero Lake Pavilion building. Atascadero City Attorney Roy Hanley said he believes the Pavilion lease is legal because the Scout troops reimbursed the city through extensive improvements to the 1,600-square-foot meeting room. County administrator David Edge and Deputy County Counsel Jac Crawford were unavailable Thursday to discuss terms and legality of the Camp French lease. The ACLU of Southern California joined the SLO County chapter in sending the letters. Our letters ask the county and the city of Atascadero to stop subsidizing discrimination by giving rent-free leases to the Boy Scouts, said Martha Matthews, staff attorney for the ACLU of Southern California. Continuing this subsidy of the Boy Scouts would violate Californias constitutional guarantees of equal protection and of separation of church and state and would also be vulnerable to a taxpayer suit for waste of public resources, Matthews wrote. The ACLU recently filed suit against the city of San Diego for a similar situation, she noted. Scouts have used the county-owned Camp French facility as a camping and training area for more than a quarter century. The county lets the Scouts use it rent-free in exchange for improvements constructed by them and other civic organizations. Obviously, it would be a big blow if it was taken away, said Vic Enchelmayer, district director for the local Scouts council. We do a lot of outdoor activities, weekend camp outs, adult training and other activities there. While the Scouts use Camp French extensively, Enchelmayer noted that other groups can and do reserve it. Like Camp French, the Pavilion room is available for other groups to use, though the Scouts have first rights. According to the Pavilion lease, approved in 1996, the Scouts were required to purchase and install carpet, acoustic ceiling panels, fire sprinklers, a divider wall, lighting fixtures, heating and air conditioning units and closets. They also pay for utilities, Hanley said. The Pavilion was built in the 1980s during a recession, and the room was left unfinished. The scouts stepping forward to do the work was valuable for the city, Hanley said. At the time it was not in the cards that the city was going to do the work on its own nickel, he said. For the Boy Scouts of America, the ACLU letters are only the latest in many legal squabbles it has found itself involved in locally and around the country. Last year, the group won a U.S. Supreme Court case allowing the organization to ban gays and atheists from the organization. In the fall, the local Los Padres Council, which includes scouts in San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara counties, fired its executive director after he announced that he is gay. Len Lanzi is suing the Scouts, arguing that the Supreme Court case did not allow the organization to discriminate in employment. The ACLU said the Lanzi case is further proof that local government should not be helping the Scouts in any way. The Boy Scouts of America has abandoned the values it used to stand for honesty, fairness and respect for diversity in favor of bias and exclusion, Matthews said. The ACLU is asking local governments to pass nondiscrimination ordinances that cover sexual orientation. Both leases have clauses saying that the Boy Scouts must comply with all local laws or the leases can be immediately terminated, Matthews said. The lease for the Pavilion room expires in 2006. The Camp French lease is good through 2031. Two years ago, the local Boy Scouts moved its office from a San Luis Obispo city-owned building after the city removed lease subsidies. At the time, ACLU officials said they might take up the Camp French and Atascadero Pavilion leases at a later date.

At every crossover I have seen, more than one troop was represented. You should tell the affected troops your date and who else you expect to be there. You may not always get the scoutmaster, but you likely will get somebody from every unit.