Eamonn

The other 3 districts in our council have a member of the district advancement committee sit in on Eagle Scout BOR's. We have a committee member sit in with the advancement committee. I have been led to believe that both ways are correct. So as we don't scare the living day lights out of the poor kid, who is nervous enough to start with we limit the size of the board to no more than five. After the Lad has been reviewed, he is asked to leave for a couple of minutes while the board members discuss and reach a decision. This decision has to be unanimous. Once the board have reached this decision the Lad and whoever else came with him: Scoutmaster, parent - You name it are invited to hear what it was. If the outcome is favorable, the board chairman explains what happens next. If the board has found reason to reach an unfavorable decision, the chair, will explain why and will cover what could be done to change the decision and how to go about appealing the decision of the board. The Troop has no say in how an Eagle Board Of Review is managed. This is up to the District Advancement Chairman, who works with the District Committee, following the guide lines set by National. Eamonn.

Unc is on the money if you see something that isn't working in your area let the local people know. A lot of what happens will depend on how you present your idea. If you (Of course I don't mean you personally!!) Go moaning and groaning, chances are that both the idea and you will put classified as: Moaning. That as a rule falls on deaf ears. The guys and girls who deliver whatever it is really do want it to work. They if they are any good (Sad to say not all are - But that belongs in another thread.) will take heed of what the people they are trying to serve are saying. I have served on a few different committees and the idea of being of service to the important people is the driving force. The important people being the people who work for and with the kids and the kids themselves. Everything we do is aimed at improving the end product for the end user. Training has been "My Bag" I love working with new leaders and trying to get the old timers to at least give what is being said a kind ear. There are people out there who can "Out-Scout" me, Lord only knows are far more intelligent and cleverer than I am. They have chosen to work in the areas that feel are important to them and where they think they will do the most good. I see and work with these guys and girls and I have nothing but respect for them. Some changes are easy. For example we found that the Scoutmaster Specific training, when presented over three nights was just too long each night. To get done at a respectable time we needed to start early, which didn't work because people were working, or we went on till late, which hurt the people who had to drive home and get up early the next day. So we changed it from three nights to four. In the District we had people complain that we were not covering all the things that a new Den leader needed to lead a Den. We tried an extra supplemental training to cover the things that people said they needed. Sad to say the Den Leaders didn't seem to be interested and very few turned up. We looked again and seen that most of the things that they said they wanted were covered in Fast Start Training. We had as a District made sure that every pack had the tape along with the other material. We thought that just by doing this that our work was done. Clearly it wasn't. We now offer to go over this material at a Round-Table meeting. We found that not only is the material being presented better but the interaction between the new Den Leaders along with the Q&A is helping them feel more prepared. None of this is earth shaking stuff, but we are trying. All the training's except the Webelos Scout Den Leader Outdoor are fairly new. Changing them is a slow painful very expensive process. We got the new Wood Badge course about four or five years ago. We were asked not to tweak it. They were asking for really good evaluations from the Course Directors. I sent in 12 pages. I had stuck to the syllabus almost word for word and followed the schedule to the minute. Sure there were times when I felt what was being presented was not as good as it could have been and that maybe things could have been done at different times. But I stuck to the syllabus as if my life depended on it. My feelings are that if we all go ahead and tweak the thing, when it comes time for National to make changes there might not be anything left of the course to change and they wouldn't know where to start. I admit that I'm not a great lover of the new Cub Scout training's. The material is good, but people are not coming back. We can of course all stand around and blame the Cub Scouter's for not doing what they should be doing. But the fact is that our little fellows are not having the program delivered to them by Leaders who have received the training that they should. The Pack Trainer position is a super idea and could be a lifesaver, but in the real world it is seen as a luxury that most packs can't afford. They need or see that they need all hands on deck to work with the Cub Scouts. I would much sooner see a pack with a Pack Trainer than a pack with an Assistant Cubmaster. Something that I'm trying to sell to the packs in our District. Of course along with that we have to train them and give them a better job description than what is out there now. As is true in most volunteer organizations we are starting to see a change in the people who are available to work with. The parents of the Cub Scouts who joining today belong to a different generation. Hard as it might be to believe when I attend Council and Area meetings I am still looked upon as the youngster, most of those present have a good 15 years on me!! And I have a good 20+ years on the Cub Scout parents. These new people look at things in a different way than I do. I really do try and am really trying to see things through their eyes. However getting these "New" people to volunteer to do things that they do not see as having a direct influence on their child is becoming a very hard sell. I think that I belonged to the last of a generation that asked "Why?" These new people are asking "What is in it for me?" Please don't think that I'm putting young people down, I'm not. I do think that people like me do need to be aware that there has been a change and we need to find new and different ways of brining these new people on board and making them feel welcome and what they are doing is important. All too often we are guilty of closing ranks and using the "We don't do it that way" or we have never done it that way. Talking to people at the District, Council, Regional and National level. I do feel that everyone is aware that this is happening. Sad to say doing something is really hard. Here in our Council we have just last year elected a VP Program. He is a super nice chap, I really like him. But his ideas are very much rooted in the way we went about things 30 years ago, when he was a young Scoutmaster. He is in his late 60's. His expectations are based on his values which are a little different than the values of the young Scoutmasters who are doing the job today. Trying to bring us old folks into the 21st Century is hard. Sad to say I think that we are still needed. Many of those people "At the top" have a hard time with the idea of sharing ideas. They and at times me!! See this as a take it or leave it game. We are slow to change. We are happy with what we have because we think that it has worked and is working. Maybe we are guilty of not keeping up. Maybe we want Scouts and Scouting to be like some Norman Rockwell painting with a value base that belongs in sometime long lost. Sure we talk the talk, but we know that if we don't do more to get the people with the innovative ideas to be part of what we are doing and where we are going, we know that it is going to bite us in the tail. We are aware that we have to reach out, but we are just not very good at it. Patience is something that young people from all generations have never been good at. When the 25 year old Den Leader comes and shares an idea, he or she wants immediate results. We don't think that way. He or she sees this as being ignored and gets upset. We see the upset and forget the idea. We will in time have to pass the reins, I believe that Scouts and Scouting will be around for a long time to come. The ideals of Scouting are good and I think are timeless. The wording of the mission and the wording of the methods might in time change, but the meaning will stay about the same. Fights that are tearing us apart will be resolved and new ones will arrive. Innovative ideas will win the day. After all the camp at Brownsea Island and the work that others did about 100 years ago were then innovative. We are tweaking what we do and how we do it all the time. Tiger Cubs, Women Leaders, are changes that OJ's Grandparents never thought would happen. The World Scout Association is full of ideas that might in time filter down and change some of what we do. But the idea of caring adults serving the needs of young people and working with them is not going to change. Please don't give up trying to get your ideas across. Please be patient. Be prepared that when you present an idea, the answer will involve you becoming more involved. This isn't a way of "Getting Back" at you it's just a sure way of allowing you to see that you get what you want done!! I have never ever said "No" to people who have offered to help at the District level. There is room on each and every committee for people who want to work with others. But be warned, there are nasty District Chairmen, who do hold people accountable. If you say it will be done. They expect it to be done. Ideas are fine but action will always speak louder than words. Eamonn

I love American politics. Armed with a pot of coffee and the remote I settled in for the night. OJ, had Scouts so I did leave the telly for a few minutes to go and pick him up. Her Who Must Be Obeyed, had gone out very early and voted, in fact she was the 8th person. The polling station (What is the American?) is in the house that was the birth place of Henry Clay Frick. Depending on who you talk to he was a sinner or a saint. Our backyard I have been informed is where he kept his pit-ponies. It's next door, only a field away. I sat and clicked from station to station. When Kerry took Pennsylvania I thought things were looking good. I watched the maps on TV become redder and redder. Most of the time I had CNN on the telly and NBC on the computer. At around 2:00 AM, CNN still were saying Ohio was too close too call and NBC had given it too Bush. Still I waited. Edwards came on and gave a "Every vote counts and we will count every vote" speech. I started to think that it would be a replay of Florida, four years ago. Then the Chief of staff for Bush came out and said that they thought they had won. I moved to the set in the bedroom and fell asleep. I still vote by mail for the elections back home. The coverage on the TV is not the same as it is here. No Dan Rather and a team of guys who looked like they were around the night of the very first election. No Peter Jennings to keep messing the map up or Tom Brokof (sp)to smile as he gives each snip-bit of information. The CNN team is different, we need a guy with a name like Wolf Blitzer. Back home when the count is done, the candidates stand on a platform and some local guy reads the results of all the races and how many votes each person got. While the two big parties, the Labour Party and the Conservative party are as I say the big ones. Labour, the party of the unions and the left and the Conservatives, the party of the right. We might have all sorts of other people running in a particular area. The Communists, do run every now and then as might anyone who has an agenda. We of course do not vote for the Prime Minister. Each party selects its own leader. The party with the most seats in the house of commons selects the Prime Minister, he then presents his credentials to the Queen, who gives him or her (Don't forget Maggie Thatcher.)permission to form a government. It used to be all very civilized, but that was in a time almost forgot. Still we don't know how lucky we are. Both here and back home in England, the people vote,we count the votes and win or lose we know that we don't need to send in the army or surround 10 Downing Street or the White House with tanks. When the time comes the winner will take on the job of government until we do it all again. There is a lot to be said for the way it works. Eamonn

While I have never really looked at the knot before. I think it is an Overhand Knot tied in a rope that has been looped. If it was a Larks Head both ends would be hanging down and it would look more even. Eamonn

While I can't really speak for our SE. I feel sure that he is not going to get involved in unit activities, that are "OK Scout type" activities. If you ask me he has no business doing so. The program comes from the pack or unit and is funded by the pack or unit. If there are people who can't afford to participate, the unit has to look at what they are doing and see if it is in the best interest of the unit. They or the chartering organization might decide that they will help out if they want to or if they can. Our council does offer financial assistance with events that it organizes. These being camp,the National Jamboree and Council high adventure activities and training. It is a shame that some units end up doing activities that come from the interests of a few. But even that can be a good thing. I don't fishing, leave it to me and fishing will never be an activity that I would do. When I was CM the Assistant CM, loved to fish. When we did the annual plan he pushed fish through. We had a month of Cubscout fishing ideas which ended in a pack fishing derby. The kids really enjoyed it and the parents were behind it. His love of fishing added a lot to our program. Some of the guys liked ice hockey, again I am not a lover of the game. After I left a pack trip to a Penguin game was added. The cheapest seats were $22.00 and some parents came to me saying that it cost too much, that a family would spent over $100.00. I of course could do nothing and would not have done even if I could.As it turned out the night that they went was the night that Mario make his come back, the Cubscouts that went got to meet him and he signed everything that they pushed under his nose. They had a great time, they spent an evening which will become a memory that they will cherish for a very long time. Is it fair that these little fellows got to do this, while others didn't? I know that the pack didn't offer an opportunity to raise money for this outing. It did say that Cub Scouts with funds in their account could use them to attend. At the end of the day this trip came from the leaders was OKed by the pack committee, was within the guide that says sporting events are fine. They went ahead, it didn't cost the pack any money, the kids had a good time, they wore their Sunday best uniforms they were great little ambassador's for Cub Scouting. The Leaders had a great time, a few did mention that going to a dry hockey game was a new experience. One family enjoyed it so much that they went and bought season tickets for the entire family. During my term as SM, we camped all over England and a lot in other countries,we never ever held a pay for camp fund raising event. The thought never crossed our minds. At that time the British Scout Association had "Bob a job week." This was the one week a year when Scouts could ask for payment for doing a good turn. A Bob was a shilling now five new pence (about 8 cents) The money helped pay the registration fee and the left over was used to pay for camp. The boys would go door to door knocking and asking for "Bob a jobs." This was of course in kinder times, it would never pass muster today. Our Scouts paid so much a week into their camp bank. Parents could ask the troop committee to help. This was managed in such a way as the Troop Leaders were not involved. I think if the truth were ever to come out these apps never made it to the committee. The Committee Chair a local Council Member (City Council) who was a local business man took it upon himself to visit the family and do the business. If Scouting particularly Cubscouting is to be home and neighborhood based, we have to use the resources that are available in our local community. We plan programs that fit in with what the families in that neighborhood can afford. A unit may or may not have the funds to offer assistance to the family that can't afford to participate in certain activities. Sad to say this will happen from time to time. If it is happening all the time there is a problem with the program. At times our PLC members do have a problem with seeing the cost of events. Sure that week working on the Merit Badge programs offered at Disney seems like a great idea. There is nothing to stop us from doing it. How much is it going to cost? How many fund raising events will we need to get it to a level where most of your patrol members can afford it? Do you guys want to spent all that time raising funds for a week at Disney? Just as we adults can sell an idea we can help these Lads see that what seems like a good idea might not be in the best interest of the Scouts they are representing. The same must hold true with the adults. Eamonn.

When I was CM we would meet and do the annual plan. The Plan led to the budget. This was then worked on till we came to the cost of keeping a Lad in Pack 155 for a year. I don't know if you have ever seen the Trial's End Popcorn "Ideal year of Scouting" We were doing this long before they came up with it. Of course we weren't doing it in units of popcorn!! We were a pack chartered by the Catholic Church and a good many of our Cub Scouts went to the Catholic School. The School did have a lot of fund raising events. In fact the very first day I dropped OJ off I left the school with 5 cases of candy bars!! A lot of the boys played soccer, the soccer teams had fund raising events. So we had parents come and say "Please just tell me what it is going to cost and I'll write a check." Back then it was costing about $125.00 a year. I won't go into everything it covered. We still offered fund raising events and the first $125.00 went to the pack, after that the boy could use the money for resident cub camp or uniforms. When he moved into a troop the money went with him. If he didn't the money went into Pack funds. If I were your Sister, I think I would be looking for a pack with a better program. If the little fellow has his heart set on this one I would write to the CC asking for a better explanation of how the money was going to be spent and seeing if there was a payment plan. Better yet I would volunteer my services to become a member of the pack committee. While I don't like what they are doing. I don't think they are breaking any BSA rules. I can't talk for the Chartering Organization, in fact it could be the CO that has asked them to do things this way? I think it's a little crazy, but they must have parents who are happy with this. That other pack is sounding better and better

A couple of things. Training is not a district responsibility, it is in fact a Council responsibility. If your district is not offering training before you pound your fist on the desk or do any pounding the big question is why? I think you might find that they just might not have the people volunteering to take on the extra responsibility. While it can be argued that anyone who is good at presenting could take on training. Maybe a good salesperson? Most members of the training team do normally have some "Real World" experience not only about Scouting but of the program that they are doing the training from. In our Council Training comes under Program. The VP Program selects a Council Training Chairman. We do allow the Districts to select a District Training Chair, he or she then selects a District Cub Training Chair.District Boy Scout Training Chair and a District Venturing Training Chair. They in turn select a training team. Again this at the District level comes under Program and the District Program Chairman. There are times when this works very well. Sad to say there are times when this stinks. Having served as the Council Training Chairman,I have seen the wrong people be selected as the District Training chair and at times Districts fail to get people to fill the position. I did during my term try to change this, so that the Council Training Chair. would take responsibility for the selection of District Training Chairs. But it was a battle that I didn't win. You can't win them all. I do agree with Bob that most trainings are worth holding if the turn out is going to be as low as one. However finding Training Team members that will keep on doing the job, keep giving up their time for that small a turn out is a very tough sell. All too often the people involved in training also hold some other position in Scouting and they see time spent away from their family or the unit they serve as being of more value than one participant turning up. Being human they do ask "Was it worth it?" At this time in our District we do have a full complement of staff. We offer the NLE Six times a year Cub Scout Specific four times a year, Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Specific three times a year Venturing Specific twice a year Introduction to Outdoor skills twice a year, Baloo Training twice a year and Webelos Scout Den Leader outdoor training twice a year. We have four districts in the council and people are encouraged to cross district lines. Some training is on a Saturday and some is on a weekday night. We also will if requested do special training's for units who might be starting up or have had a bunch of new leaders. We have done one on one training if the person has a reason why nothing else will work. Troop Committee training is by request at the time and place of the troops committee meeting. All this calls for a lot of manpower and planning. There are times when things don't go to plan. Only the other week I ended up doing a NLE training myself (I had a great time!!) We do not seem to have a hard time getting new leaders to training. Cub Scouter's do come but are not returning as they should. Over the past few years there seems to be a renewed interest in Webelos Scout Den Leader outdoor training. No one seems to know why. Most of the people who take Baloo Training are not the people who should be taking it. Boy Scouter's who take the specific training as a day training seem to enjoy it more than those who take the course over 3 nights. The people who take the Outdoor Intro. Have a blast. As a District and a Council we have really good records about training. They are kept in a computer that is not linked to Scoutnet. The girl who keeps them is like a bulldog when it comes to turning in training reports. We do recognize all those who attend training at the round-table meeting and a card is sent to the unit COR. The Council offers free rank advancement to units that fulfill a list of things, one being top leader trained. We do push the Every Boy Deserves A Trained Leader, a lot. I think that we are doing a good job, two years ago we were recognized as the top council in the country for having the highest percentage of trained leaders. I gave a big long interview for the magazine that serves the professionals (Pam got all the credit) I have posted before that I'm not for mandatory training. While Fun is a very important part of Scouting, most of the participants attending want to know that the presenter; Knows what he is talking about and is not going to waste their time. I have tried when I was in training to bring new people on board and there have been times when this has turned around and bit me in the tail. Chartering Organizations can ask that their leaders get trained within a given time.If we have a new unit starting in the district we do everything we can to get the leaders trained before they recruit any boys or youth members. This is normally a training that is just for them NLE and sometimes specific. I have also used training to sort out units that are having problems. About 18 months ago a pack and a troop both chartered by a church were having all sorts of problems. The Pack and the Troop were saying that the church did nothing for them.Looking at the charter and talking to the preacher, I found out that no one in the unit other than the COR was a member of the church. The Scoutmaster had been there for a very long time and the Cubmaster was a pain. The preacher didn't really care if Scouts were there or not. The preacher called a meeting at my request and I went and presented the NLE. Everyone came away with a much better idea where they fitted in. Not long after they were all working together on a fund raising dinner at the church and the preacher was giving Scouting the hard sell at his services. The Cubmaster is still a pain but the SM and the Preacher have become good friends. I'm not sure if it was my presentation or divine intervention Eamonn.

Packsaddle, Thanks for the explanation and the sympathy. Some little time back, if my memory isn't that far gone Fuzzy Bear and myself did discuss at great length what role/part the Council or the District plays in the Troop program. I think we just about wore that topic out. You know what success looks like. From what you say you seen it in action when you were a Scout. Making it happen again? That is always a lot harder than we think it is going to be. Or no matter what we seem to do we never seem to get it just like it was. I know that there will never be another 17 Fulham (Pioneers) I for one would never now be able to commit the time and energy that I put in then. Young Packsaddle, did make it to become an Eagle Scout, so something must have worked. It is very frustrating when the people who are charged to do things either don't do them or do a very poor job. But having been on the Council and the District side of the fence, please believe me when I say we get as upset and as discouraged as anybody when we see the units screwing it all up. We do make mistakes. I remember asking a guy who does know a lot about Scouting to get involved with the training team. He got up to present a session at Scoutmaster Specific and went on for 20 minutes talking about his hat!! Needless to say I never asked him again. Sad to say there are 30 or more Scoutmasters and Assistant Scoutmasters who will forget all the good stuff that was presented but you bet they will remember this guy and his darn hat!! I never did like hats to start with. I have had Commissioners that were not the greatest, one guy was so bad I nicknamed him pockets because he was about as useful as pockets in your underwear!! Lucky enough he was with a unit that didn't need a lot of help and they took him under their wing and made a fuss of him. He sits at all of their functions has a good feed, they make a big deal of introducing him and he makes a big deal of presenting the charter every year. At the moment and for the last few years it has worked out well. What happens when there is a problem is yet to be seen. I was talking on the phone to a friend of mine over the weekend I said that there is a Council near us that has had the same old little club presenting the Wood Badge Course for ever. These guys are happy to wear their red jackets and campaign hats and dole out the course. Their 21st Century Course hasn't changed much since the mid 1960's. I would love to go and give them a good kick in the pants. Yes I do see and do share your frustrations. Eamonn.

I just want to thank Fred for posting this. I had never heard anything about it. Thank You Eamonn

While that dastardly Devil, may have yet again given you the slip, and old Sam may have cashed in that trip. I can't help wondering if there was and is a force of greatness that gathers around a group of young people, who are tired from the trip and share the very simple things that make life seem right. There is no doubt in my mind that these are the days that we carry with us for a very long time. Ralph Reader, comes close to describing it in some of the Gang Show songs. Thanks for sharing and there is aways next year and that old fellow with the tail and horns won't stand a chance. There are strange things done... Eamonn

I'm sorry Packsaddle old pal. I don't understand what you mean? I didn't know and still don't know of what you mean by the original thread? Yes I know I have a birthday this month and seem to spent more and More time looking for my glasses, my keys and other can't leave the house necessities. But I don't see or get what you are saying. Please help me out. In both the threads that are running asking when it did or when it didn't work. Someone has asked for a way of measuring the success of the program. I have asked how do you measure success? I hope I have worded it in such a way as to make it safe for everyone. When we sit as a District Committee, we look at reports that can be interpreted as a unit needing help.A unit that shows no signs of advancement, or that is losing members, or isn't camping,all these might be seen as a unit that needs help. So on the other side of the coin a unit that is doing all these things might be seen as being successful? A troop from a affluent area wearing uniform is successful. A troop from a poor area having all the Lads in uniform could be viewed as more successful. When I look back at what I see my "Big Successes" I have a real mixed bag. There are a lot of things that I'm proud of. Sure I'm proud of helping a troop rise like a Phoenix from the dust. Sure I'm proud of, after years of doings what I thought was the right way finally seeing the error of my ways. You bet your bottom dollar I'm proud that kids that I went to court for, stuck with the program and turned out to be good kids and good adults. I think my biggest success is that a lot of young people chose to spent some of their childhood with me and we shared a lot of meaningful good times. We had fun, shared adventures and along the way we all learned a lot of stuff. There of course was the "Book type" stuff the maps, the knots, the clouds, but there was other stuff like getting along with others, even though they might come from a different part of town or a different part of the world. There was seeing the shy little Lad come forward and lead something at a camp fire. There was the smiles on faces when they got it. The "It" could be different for each Lad. It had to be. He was an individual. As far as I know none of the Scouts that I have worked with have rushed into burning buildings or have become what might be called hero's in that sense of the word.Some Lads had things that they had to overcome when they were Lads, I like to think that Scouts and Scouting helped them. There were Scouts who liked working with some of the other Adults in the troop, more than they liked working with me. That was fine there were other adults that made time for them. I think that Scouts and Scouting played a small part in the lives of a lot of boys who joined the troop. We never seen what we were doing as saving anyone or changing the world, we just offered a program. We knew that we could never fill the void if there was one in the family that he came from. While a lot of what we did might be seen as educational, we never looked at what we were doing as educating. In fact we stressed that school, family and church had to come before Scouting. I think that over the years there have been more little successes than anyone could count. While some leaders will look at advancement, which is all well and good. I look at all the little goals that were reached to get too where the Boy is. The burnt pancakes, the granny knots. Advancement is a yardstick. I think it depends how you look at it. I have been around long enough to see Lads that were in the troop, leave and marry and have kids of their own. I keep in contact with a lot of them. On Saturday I got a E-Mail from a Lad that had served as an SPL,he was over the moon that his son had just become a Patrol Leader, the E-mail went on about a hike that they had just done and he compared it with a hike he had done, with his patrol. We his Father and I had dropped them off in the middle of no where. Which was fine. But we the adults had to find a place to camp. We ended up in the parking lot of a pub. His Dad passed away about ten months ago. The overnight camp in a pub parking lot was one of his fondest memories about his involvement in Scouting. The Scouts on the hike had problems with a stove and mixed everything that should have been cooked in two pots into one. In true Scout fashion they said that "It really wasn't that bad." I don't know of any real way of measuring success. We can set goals and reach them or fail to reach them. We all need to take time to assess where we are and where we are and where we are going. There are times when things beyond our control get in the way. When this happens the worst thing we can do it too beat ourselves up because of it. Most of us are very forgiving souls, we rarely if ever give up on anyone. We try and understand that the Scout, Scouter, parent is doing their best. While this at times might not reach our standards, we do try and remind ourselves that this is their best and find paths to make whatever the task at hand is work. Then again the measure of success might not be what we have done, maybe it lies in what we are going to do. If we dwell in the past all we have will be a past. The future of a unit lies with the little fellows who have just joined and what we can do to serve them. Eamonn

I have more than once posted how I became "Reactivated" as Unit Leader. So I'm not going to bore with you with that. There are huge differences in Cub Scouting USA and Cub Scouting UK. I like to think that I'm good at working with kids, so that part was easy. I did go and take all the training that was available and did read all the books. The pack when I stepped in had 18 Cub Scouts. There was no Pack Committee, the CM called meetings with the Den Leaders, as and when she saw the need. As CM she saw Cub Scouting as some sort of Cafeteria program that she and she alone picked what bits the pack was going to follow. I don't know what or how much experience she had or didn't have. I know that when I came along I was new to American Cub Scouting and was too dumb to know any other way than what was laid out in the books or in the training's. The road wasn't always easy, we went through three Pack Committee chairs. In two years. We had inherited Den Leaders, who didn't like the "New Ideas". Some people were unhappy when the pack started to grow. Some Den Leaders didn't like the idea of the themes they saw it as a way of cramping their styles. There were lots of bumps along the way. But we managed to get a working Pack Committee and Membership continued to grow. I think the main reason was that the parents of the kids in the pack saw that we were doing stuff and they talked to other parents. When I left the Assistant Cubmaster took over. In time the little guys who had been Tiger Cubs, who for some reason were a group that had stayed together wanted to stay together, so they formed a Troop. As I traveled around the District I heard people say that these guys were doing stuff by the book because they didn't know any other way. The Guy who had been my Assistant Cubmaster was the Scoutmaster, in time the Cubmaster who took over from him joined the troop and a new Cubmaster took over. This past May, they formed a Venture Crew, most of the Crew Members were the little guys who had been in Tiger Cubs. At last count the pack had a little over 60 Cub Scouts, the troop was in the mid 30'S and the Crew had about 15. The pack had 18 Boys in when we started to do things by the book. Sure there were times when we messed up and did have to go back and see what the book said. I think that we were helped by the fact that none of us had any knowledge of the way it was done, no one telling us the "We always do it this way." Or "We don't do it that way." More than just the boys that came along what I find amazing is how many of the parents have stuck around, not names on paper but really doing stuff. I would love to see some of them come forward and get involved with the District, but they don't want too. They have a great unit and the priest is happy that there are about 100 or so young people in the parish youth program. As yet the troop has not seen one Lad become an Eagle Scout, I think that next year we might see two or three. They are a super bunch, I love to go back and visit. Eamonn

For those who don't know my only child is a 16 going on 17 year Scout. OJ,is at an age where there are a lot of doors or opportunities open to him. He is still active in his troop, at present he serves as the SPL.He is active in the OA, I think if the truth were to be told he likes the OA far better than the troop. He is serving his second term as a Vice Chief, he would like to be Chief and after returning from NLS last year has said that National Chief is something that he would like to try for. I have tried very hard not to interfere with his Boy Scout career. I like to think that I have been supportive and allowed him to follow his own path. He has been a Life Scout for a very long time and has everything done except for the Leadership Project and what follows after it. From where I see I like his view on Scouts and Scouting and I believe that he is a good kid. Next year he opted not to attend the Jamboree as a Troop member, instead signed up to go as a staff member. I admit to being a little hurt, I was looking forward to spending that time with him and I thought that he would have had a good shot at becoming the SPL. I kept my feelings to myself. I kept reminding myself about Wings and Roots. He then came up with the idea of being part of the OA Trail Crew at Philmont next year. Her That Must Be Obeyed , does have a very deep fear of him flying by himself, but we were willing to find a way of him getting there somehow. About a month ago he came home and said that a troop that is in our Council, but not in our District had an opening and had invited him to join their Philmont Crew. I do know the Leaders of this troop, and much as I hate to say it I don't like them. They are a strange bunch. I suppose if I were to stick a label on them, which I know is very wrong of me!! I would label them Rebels. I had the Scoutmaster in the Owl Patrol, when he took Wood Badge I was his Coach Counselor. Everything this troop does seems to be based on their trips to Philmont. It is like the rest of the Scout program doesn't exist just these trips. While I know it is not the be all and end all, but the Scoutmaster wears this hat with a big feather hanging from it. It looks like a crow feather. It annoys the heck out me. I was hoping that the dates wouldn't be right, but they are fine and the cost is lower than what the Council contingent has for 2006. I am just not sure if I want OJ hanging out with these guys. They don't do anything that could be classed as wrong. I just don't want their idea of Scouting to rub off on OJ. He will be 17 or almost 17 when they go. I feel sure that he will have a good time and enjoy himself. I don't know if I'm being over protective? Or if what I'm trying to protect is something that I should. Maybe I'm questioning OJ and the strength of his values? Or maybe I'm not being fair to the leaders. I know that I like Philmont, but the Scout program offers a lot more than just trips to Philmont. As if to make matters worse I have this rule, where I don't ever put down other adults in front of OJ. I think that he needs to respect all adults just because they are adults. If they mess up with him, or before him that's their fault. So if I'm not going to allow him to go how would I tell him? I along with Her Who Must Be Obeyed, are what might be called "Strict Parents", we do not and never have had a problem saying No. Or refusing him. So that isn't the problem. Should I allow him to go and wait and see? Should I refuse him and not give a reason? This invite has just about killed his interest in the OA Trail-crew. Any ideas? Eamonn

Just to make life even more difficult I think that there are different types and different parts of a PLC meeting. At summer camp, we held daily meetings. These were normally very short and looked over how things were going and what was happening the next day. This kept everyone on the same page and prevented small problems from growing. After a troop meeting,we would spent a couple of minutes reviewing that meeting. My role as SM was to ask "How did you think it went?" Offer words of encouragement and pats on the back. The SPL would quickly run over who was doing what at the next meeting and make changes if need be. The PLC was in two parts, the first was looking at the theme and activities that we would be covering. We would try out some of these new ideas, games or presentations. The second part was the business meeting. I seen the fist part as my preparing the PL's. This was the "Train Them" part. If the SPL was well versed in whatever he would be the "Presenter" If it was something that we had never done or an area that we were weak in. I would present. Most times I would do my best to let the SPL and the SPL cover the stuff that they were comfortable with. Take pioneering. All the PL's should know how to tie all the basic knots. The SPL and the ASPL would run through these with the PL's and make sure that everyone was comfortable with this. If one or two of the PL's needed a little help, they would do this. Most of the PL's should have no problem with basic lashings. Either the SPL or ASPL would run through these. If as part of troop night program we were going to make a rope ladder I might step in and go over marlinespike hitch. If we were covering pulling power I might step in and go over the Harvester's Hitch (Rope Tackle). Having planted the seeds I found that the business meeting went a lot easier. It did go a long way to keep the troop meetings moving. The key was having a monthly theme and sticking to it. PLC meetings were fun, fast moving and were designed to make the members feel special. Of course like any group we had soft spots. I knew that we had to move through the stages of Team Development and there were times when a new project or new idea would move us back to the first step and we would have to go over all the other steps again. We found that a fixed Agenda did keep the meeting moving.Most times the only other adults that I needed were the Quartermaster or if the theme was something that one of the ASM's was particularly good at, we would let him sit in. One sure way to kill the meeting and get no place was to allow it to become a **** session. I did have a very good QM, who did a wonderful job with looking after the equipment. The bad thing was that he started looking upon the equipment as "His equipment". When something was lost or broken he would tend to look upon it as a hanging offense. Of course the outcome was that the Patrol Leaders stopped telling him, which led to all sorts of problems. Scouts don't like to be **** ed at. A lot of our themes were based around District Activities. Most of these were some sort of a competition. In the early days entering the competition and winning was my goal. When the PLC said that they didn't want to enter. I had a hard time accepting it. Letting go and allowing them to run the show was hard for me. I used to resort to all sorts of things to get them to see it my way. All of which were wrong. There is no point in giving these guys the power if when they do use it, we are going to take it away. Meetings around the Scoutmasters kitchen table can bring results, but I never seen a lot come out of them. Eamonn

In another thread it was mentioned that Scouter's need a way of measuring success. I don't know of any sure method of doing this. I do have some ideas and some opinions, but I will hold off until someone else "Jumps In." To be fair, I don't think that there is any right or wrong answers, but I am sure that there are those who might feel that there are. I have put this in the working with kids forum, as I'm thinking along unit lines. A Council might see new buildings or work that has been completed at camp as being a measure of success, I was thinking more along how a unit, unit leader or committee might measure success? Eamonn.

I know a troop in Ireland that tried the nobet approach (No Boy Entry Troop) They found that they had the following problems: No Scouts to yell at meant that they ended up yelling at each other. Without problem parents calling in the middle of Murder She Wrote, they had to watch the whole show. They had no one to bring the empties back to the bar. The Treasurer ran out of money half-way through the first meeting. They had to buy their own cigarettes. There was no one to do First aid when the Scoutmaster fell off his stool. Everyone got very confused when the CC kept yelling "Pint of order" They found out later she was trying to say "Pint of Porter." NOBET Scouting cost a lot more.Paying all the fines was really expensive. The reason the Nobet troop failed was because they felt bad not having Eamonn at the meetings, singing Danny Boy. Eamonn

Thanks River2k (Ken) I hope that you or Bob do start a thread on PLC's. I feel certain that there are a lot of good ideas out there. We just need to take a look at them. I think we will see that there are a lot of different people running this meeting lots of different ways. I of course think that the way I used to hold our PLC'S is good. But I will bet that there are some people who are thinking outside the box that will put me to shame. I agree that these pot shots are not adding anything to the forum. I think that they will die down and we will return to exploring ideas. We will I hope never shy away from asking a question or disagreeing with the other guy.But even if the other guy is someone that you view as being a real twit,we will try to remember that even a stopped clock is right twice a day. The backspace button /key is a powerful tool.A few kind words before we say that we don't agree will help soften the blow. Words can be very powerful. I hope we can use the power to do good. Tearing things down and putting people down is easy, it can provide a moments fun but as Scouts and as Scouts out in full view of the world I hope we don't want to do that. Eamonn

Welcome Jeff, Sad to say I don't have any news on the Life Guarding front. Still welcome to the forum, do stop in every now and then, the water is warm and the chlorine doesn't make your eyes turn red. There are the odd times when people see red and the water gets hot. But as a rule it's just a passing storm in a tea cup. Eamonn

What a great subject for the PLC to look at. Planning the meeting is a big help (No I'm not saying that you didn't!!) At the gathering period have a real energetic lively game. Dodge-ball,comes to mind. You will find lots of Scout games on the UK Scout-net web site. Use games to set the mood. Don't use the same ones all the time. Someone said in another Thread that the PLC meetings were boring. We used them to test new games and new ideas. Word games are good to settle the group down, things like Buzz. Or Simon Says. One sure way that I found of getting them to quite down was "Just a minute" The rules are easy. Ask the boys to stand with their hands behind their back. Make sure that there are no clocks in sight. When they think exactly one minute has passed they have to sit down. The minute starts from when the SPL says GO and he is checking on his trusty Timex. While I agree with all you have said about the Scout Law and them being rude. When the PLC is planning the meetings remember that fun is the fuel of Scouting. Talk to them about finding the balance of getting what the patrols need to do, what the ASM's need to be doing and having fun. If for some reason the meeting is going to be really boring (You are covering YP and showing the video) Do something nice. Ice cream bars are my big thing. We used the inter-patrol competition to help keep things moving. Dumb things like the first patrol to touch all four walls and fall in. You can add in a quiet line or whatever. Teach this to the SPL and let him add this sort of thing as and when he sees the need. http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/direct/games/index.php There are a lot of good ideas here. I used to keep a book with all the troop programs. I was wrong this is a job for the Scribe. At the PLC we would rate what we had done last month as part of the Business meeting. Some ideas looked good on paper, some worked well with just the PLC, but failed when the troop got hold of them. At the end of each Troop meeting, all the adults would go for a drink of some sort. We would review the meeting, discuss how the SPL had done or was doing, talk about Lads that had done well and discuss Lads that were being a right royal pain in the neck or someplace?? If it seemed one Lad was acting this way I would do my best to have a very quick word with him before the next meeting. Not a full sermon, just a "Hey Amin, are you OK?" "I noticed last week you seemed not to be yourself." Nine times out of ten, the Lad will look at you as if you are nuts. Then he will tell you he is fine. While you haven't given the "I have my eye on you" Speech, the Lad knows that you have your eye on him. Of course that leaves the one other time when a Lad will share with you that something is bugging him. When this happens you have too make time for him, never ever brush him off. You asked and if he is willing to talk to you find a way of making the time to listen to him. If it is totally impossible at that very minute find a time that night. One other thing that I have found that helps me a lot is that before and sometimes during a meeting I will ask myself "Hey how are you doing?" Me knowing how I feel has made a world a difference to the way I act and react. As a rule I am overjoyed to spent time with kids. I had a wonderful childhood and I'm so grateful that these young people allow me to be part of their childhood. I see it as a great honor. But like most people there are times when I get upset or a little mad. When this happens, just knowing that I am feeling that way can move things in a more positive direction. I have only just noticed that you are a ASPL. I missed that before now. I did write all this thinking that you were an adult. Sorry about that.I could edit it and make it more appropriate, but I'm hoping that you can take the bits that you can use. It doesn't matter if you are a youth or an adult, I really dislike threats. Most times when people make threats they are upset. I am a man of my word I like people to believe what I say. Threats put me between a rock and a hard place. Please don't make threats,that in it self is very un-Scout like. If there is a need for some sort of disciplinary action, that should come from the Troop Committee. The guys in the troop are your brother Scouts, if they are younger than you some of them see you as some sort of a hero. Try seeing yourself as their hero. Would a hero threaten those that look up to him? No of course not!! Eamonn.

I think I have posted this before -Oh well... Serving as a Service Team member at Walton Firs National Camp Site, in Cobham Surrey. One duty of the service team in the summer was to build the fire for the Campfire that was held every Saturday night. As a rule Bill, the Camp Warden would be there at the start and once the fire was going he would nip off home for a mug of tea. Bills favorite way of opening the campfire was to stand over the fire, his arms extended and as the fire caught he would say "As the flames rise higher, may our spirits be lifted..." Depending on what sort of mood he was in this could be a long or short opening. The poor fellow had been a Signals Officer in HMS Royal Navy, working in submarines.Most of the week he worked at the camp site with just his wife and his cat. I think he was lonely and enjoyed having people around. There was a lot of campers at this small site, at that time in England Scouts cooked on wood fires.Finding wood was a challenge, most sites had a wood pile. Companies would donate offcuts and other wood that they had no use for. Most sites had lots of wooden pallets, Walton Firs was lucky that most of the wood came from a company that made wooden coffins. Of course young Service Team members would when they found the odd cross make sure this found a prominent place in the camp fire. We would normally lay the fire late afternoon. To avoid any embarrassment we would get newspaper and use a little kerosene (Paraffin in English) on the newspaper. By the time the campfire was lit the smell was hard to smell. One Saturday afternoon I went to lay the fire but there was no kerosene. There was this other stuff. The can was marked T.V.O. I had no idea what TVO was. Later I found it was Tractor Vaporizing Oil. 8:00 Was campfire. Bill was a stickler for time and the older Service Team members mostly ex- Rover Scouts, had a date with a pint of good English Ale, so they wanted the campfire over as quickly as possible. We lit the newspaper, Bill came forward arms out stretched. He started his "As the flames rise.." When clouds of black smoke enveloped him. the tinder wood caught the TVO reached flash point, flames shot high in the air. Bill came away from the fire, his arms still out stretched. Bill was a very small man not very tall. He had eyebrows that made him look like a koala bear. At least he used to have eyebrows... Eamonn PS Bill didn't kill me. He was employed by the National Office of the UK Scouts. A couple of years later I went to take a Campfire leaders course at Gilwell Park. Part of the course was How to build a campfire. The guy presenting worked at Gilwell, he told the story about Bill nearly being killed by a twit of a Service Team member - I never said a word.

I had received an E-mail from our Program Director,asking if I would open up camp for a pack that was holding a Halloween party out there tonight. I said OK. Then my good friend Mike phoned to say that the pump on one of the wells had gone bad. If I was going to be there we could put in a new one. We both got to camp about 4:00, the pack leaders were due at about 6:00. I had arrived a little before Mike and had everything turned on. I had held a Jamboree Troop meeting at camp last night. So I had left the coffee press along with some cold drinks. Mike teases the heck out of me about the coffee press. We were no sooner there when a storm came in, thunder, lightning the works. The pump is on hold till sometime tomorrow. But OJ has OA officer training at the Cub camp tomorrow at 8:00 AM and I have a meeting about Scoutreach. I dearly love spending time with Mike. He is a super nice guy and an outstanding Scouter. At times we really get into it, people who don't know us think that any minute fisticuffs will be our only way of working out our differences. Pam my ex-DE would tell them that we were just like an old husband and wife. Mike has been asked to give up being Council Training Chair and take on Council Camping Chair. We sat watching the rain. He asked if I thought that I would come back and do training? I said no, that it was time for someone new, and that I had done my three years. He asked what I was going to do and I said that at this time I have no plans. We started to talk about Camping and how to make it better. I have a lot ideas. Most of my ideas have to do with making more use of our camps. Not closing up everything just because Summer camp is over. Mike knows that I can be like a bulldog , once I get hold of something I just don't let go. He listened as I outlined my ideas. He agreed with the big idea. That being not closing the camp and hiring people to operate the pool, the boat docks, the climbing tower. Then he asked who did I think would come up and use it? Before I could answer he kept going adding that only the troops that do stuff would come up!! This sounded very elementary to me. He kept going saying that the troops with a program would come up, but the troops that don't have a program would find all sorts of reasons not too. I thought of the "When didn't it work." Thread here in the forum. Nothing is going to work unless we want it to work. Sure there are times when people push to make things work, but if people don't want to make it, the sad thing is that it won't and most of the time the losers are the youth members. As it rained we moved the conversation on to resident Cub Scout Camp. Our Cub Camp Director, who hails from another Council has made it known that she isn't coming back next year. Mike said that he is worried, the numbers show a decline in Cub Scout Campers last (This) year. I reminded him that membership was down and that to get a clearer picture he would need to look at the percentage who had attended camp.In my Cubmaster days we had nearly all the little guys attend camp. Dads would jump at the opportunity to go to camp as part of the needed adult ratio. They would split the week so that two Dads could get to go to camp. He asked how did you get the Cubs to go to camp? I said that it was a big part of our annual plan,everything we did as a pack other than camp was in the budget. We held three fund raising events a year, one was popcorn the other two were decided by the Committee. Popcorn paid for the year and the other two were never for anything, but the parents knew that camp was about $100.00. We as a pack promoted the heck out of camp. Mike asked how come last year when the District Cub camping Chair Had visited all the packs that invited him to show the camp video and answer questions at Pack meetings and other Pack functions, were the numbers still down. I answered that if you look at the packs that invited him, they were the packs who went to camp anyway. If the leader isn't behind it, it isn't going to work. Our SE is really big on incentives for the leaders. We have shirts for Webelos Scout Transition, mugs for everything. The active leaders have enough **** s to last a life time and need to rent storage for all the mugs. These leaders don't care about a mug or a shirt, they do what they do because they care. I know when it didn't work!! I have the answer. It will never work with the people who don't care. I like spending time with Mike because I know that he really does care.

While I get a lot of calls and reports about adults who can't play nice.Some of the tales about what the person who takes care of the funds does or doesn't do are enough to make your hair curl. The worst offenders are the "One man show" The Scoutmaster who has a few hand picked committee members that haven't had anything to do with anything for years. Eamonn

There can be no argument about doing whats right because it's right. The question then becomes who is right? At this time my son doesn't really care about the cost of the uniform. He hasn't had to pay for it. Many if not most of the people I know who do have to pay for it are saying that the cost is too high. This can't be said by those who don't wear it, because they don't have the right? Many people, me included think that no matter what the uniform is and no matter what is costs there are those who won't wear it. We might be wrong? Uniform and wearing the uniform is looked upon by some (Again me included) as an outward sign of our acceptance of the ideals of Scouting. Sure I will rethink this if the uniform were to change to something that had pink feathers or knickers. This would make me wrong? Some troops manage to get all the Lads turned out in full smart uniforms. I bet the Scoutmaster isn't wearing a shirt and blue jeans. But I wonder what the Scouts really think of the uniform? Are they like me and wear it because it is the uniform and the uniform is what it is. Most Scouts that I know are happy at camp to wear the shorts, socks and a t-shirt. There are a few moans and groans about dressing for colors or dinner, but I have yet to see a troop at camp that doesn't change into a Scout shirt. Still they would be just as happy not to change. Where is right? Does the uniform work? Most Scouts only have one Scout shirt, the short sleeved shirt. Fine for summer not so great for winter. During the winter months the shirt is worn over a sweat shirt or under a sweat shirt. This being the case why not have a uniform sweat shirt? There was a few years back a grass roots movement to have the Philmont shorts become the uniform shorts. Studies were supposed to be under way. Maybe they are, when it comes to uniform open lines of communication don't seem to be in operation. That isn't right. The all American, union made tag is important to some people. I think that my Scout uniforms are the only clothes I own that have that tag. If it was that important to me, surely I would own more. Am I wrong? How do we know when something is right? Who do we ask? Or do we wait to be told, that what we have is wrong? What ever happened to "If it ain't broke don't fix it" Or is that wrong? Eamonn.

Hi, While contacting the UK Casualties Union won't do you much good. They do have some neat stuff on their site. You might want to click around a bit, but it's worth the trip. http://www.casualtiesunion.org.uk/journal.html#...%20I%20find%20it%20easiest%20if%20...%20Responding%20to Eamonn

I know that I'm starting to sound like Bill Clinton?? But the word program is getting to me. The delivery of the program is in the hands of individual leaders. Each of us brings something too the table.We each have different skills, which does help offer the youth that we serve different things to do or activities. We may share the same "Ballpark" Values,but we might list them is a different order or prioritize them differently. We work with or for the youth that join. The time when I think we do the best work is when we deal with the Scout or Crew member, one on one. We talk and guide and support him or her as an individual. We cater for his or her needs, using the talents, skills, values, and resources that we have and what the organization or other organizations have to meet these needs. These wants and needs vary from youth to youth.His or her goals become our goals and this program thing kicks in as we work for this young person. Along the way there are lots of different things happening. People doing all sorts of things to help provide resources that will meet this end. Each different department or body, call it what you will is doing what they see as the program. There are for most of these groups material that comes from the BSA. Is all of this perfect? I don't know I haven't read or used all of it. I didn't find the set of leaflets on Rural Scouting to be a big help. I happen to think that starting a unit with only five youth members is not such a great idea. I don't like that Scouts can be Scouts and Crew members and I'm amazed that a pair of Venturing socks cost over $13.00. Is this organization or is this program? I do like the methods of Scouting. I like where we are supposed to be heading. I agree with the Scout Law and Oath. I think this is program. The material that comes from the BSA is mostly very good. I think that Cub Scout training does need a good tweak. Does this make me anti-program? Maybe Bill Clinton could define program. I'm having a hard time. Is the program only as good as what is delivered to each Scout? If so who is to judge if it worked or not? We do have a few twits running lose, we can train them and they will still remain twits. But there are youth members that think the world of these twits. Does that just make them loved twits or is what they are doing still the program - At least in the eyes of these youth? I see one big problem that we face is that when we see that it is not working, we at the District and Council level have a really hard time trying to fix it. It is OK if the people who are delivering something that isn't working want to try and fix it. However if they don't want too, there is not very many tools in our tool box to make it work. Eamonn.