Eamonn

I want to thank everyone for the way they handled what I thought was a very un-scout-like and nasty wording at the start of a posting. We are all free to think what we will about each other. However when we start name calling it makes us all look bad. We do have a lot of people who visit the forum and don't post, along with youth members. Feeling about Ford Motor cars may run high, but we all share the joy that Trevorum and his family did not get hurt. The posting was removed and I fess up to removing it!! Ea.

Hey Beav, You don't post under another name that has something to do with a Trading post, do you? Ea.

I Me Mine Writer, lead vocal: George Harrison All thru' the day I me mine, I me mine, I me mine. All thru' the night I me mine, I me mine, I me mine. Now they're frightened of leaving it Ev'ryone's weaving it, (No cotton socks!!) Coming on strong all the time, All thru' the day I me mine. I me me mine, I me me mine, I me me mine, I me me mine. All I can hear I me mine, I me mine, I me mine. Even those tears I me mine, I me mine, I me mine. Ev'ryone's frightened of playing it Ev'ryone's saying it. The above was brought to you by the all new Scouting program cafeteria. A place where you pick and choose which parts of the program you like, change what you don't like. Alter anything that suits your mood. Best of all is that everything is free all you need is an American Ego Card. Eamonn. (This message has been edited by Eamonn)

I just caught a few minutes of my all time favorite TV show; West Wing. There was a wonderful line that went something like: "Why do we we preach to the choir?" "Too make them sing!" I think that maybe I'm far more of a pessimist than FScouter and Bob White. Or maybe I just give up to soon? Q: Why are some Leaders Loosey-Goosey? A: They don't know any better Q: So what do we do about it? A: We lead by example, we offer training's, we coach, we mentor, we offer help and support. We show them where the resources are. We use the Scout oath and law to show them that once they have agreed to be a leader in the BSA,that they now have an obligation to follow the program and deliver it to the youth they serve. Q: Why not just make all of this stuff mandatory? A: A Scout is to be Trusted. Q: How come some units are Loosey-Goosey? A: The adults starting at the very top are not doing what they are supposed to do. Q: So what can be done? A: We lead by example, we offer training's, we coach, we mentor, we offer help and support. We show them where the resources are. We use the Scout oath and law to show them that once they have agreed to be a leader in the BSA,that they now have an obligation to follow the program and deliver it to the youth they serve. Q: What happens when this doesn't work? A: We keep preaching. Q: Where should we start? A: The COR Q: What happens if he refuses to attend the training's? A: We bring the training to him. Our job is to train people not have training courses. Q: Everyone is saying that this doesn't work. Q: How do they know? Have they really tried? Eamonn. (This message has been edited by Eamonn)

I am not up to speed on what a CO can and can't do. At this time all the units in our District don't impose any special requirements. I can't help thinking many of the rules that an organization might have are already part of what that organization does anyway. When I was Cubmaster of a pack chartered by a Catholic church, ensuring that the opportunity to attend Mass when the Pack went away for the weekend was just a given. A friend of mine was the course director for a Wood Badge course and a group of Orthodox Jewish Scouter's, in fact an entire patrol signed up for the course. They knew what they needed to do to fulfill their religious obligations, the Staff on the course did everything they could to help and support them in doing so, but the course itself didn't change. Eamonn.

Just remmber to use ropes and troop 412 will do fine. Eamonn.

Q and A. Q:Is Boy Scouting Too Loosey-Goosey? A: Yes Q: Does National, The Council or The District have the tools to make unit leaders follow and deliver the program? A: No. Q: Who does? A: The Chartering Organization. Q: What happens when they don't do anything? A: Scouting Loosey-Goosey? Eamonn.

The June Newsletter is now posted http://www.scouting.org/jamboree/bulletin/2005-06.html Eamonn.

"No kids couldn't care less what a council exec does! But mom & dad do!" Ed I bet that over 75% of the Moms & Dads in Greater Pitt. Don't even know the name of the Scout Exec. But by the end of the summer they will know how good or bad the food was at camp. Eamonn.

Hi Hops, Just think you can get a shot of Wagionvigil and yours truly and save a fortune on mouse traps!! Eamonn.

Me thinks that as I agree with the wise OGE,I will join him in the chiller!! Eamonn Hey OGE can I use your cell phone to call Her Who Must Be Obeyed? Burrrr It's Cold in here!!

Hi Dan, I'm glad you approve of the Scout Association's Scout Promise. But the fact is that it has been that way since 1969. So it's not a recent change. Eamonn.

I never said I disagreed with them!! Eamonn.

Some years back I sat on the Cub Scout Camping Committee,at that time we didn't have a Program Executive and the DE's had areas that they took care of. The DE who had Cub camping sent out a letter informing me about a mandatory meeting. This really upset me. I called her and informed her that I was a volunteer and that in my book there was no such thing as a Mandatory meeting. I did attend the meeting because I was the Cub Scout camping representative for the District and they were depending on me. If I had not attended, maybe the then District Chairman, could have found someone else that would have been more dependable than me. While I still don't see or like the idea of mandatory things, I do make the people who hold District positions accountable. If they are not going to do the job or perform the way that they should in the role that they accepted, we need to meet talk and if need be look for someone else who will do the job. I like to think that I use different styles of leadership to enable us reach the goal that we have set. When I was District Commissioner, I made it very clear to the Commissioner Staff that they set the example when it came to uniform. How could a UC do a uniform inspection, if he or she wasn't in the correct uniform? Each and every Commissioner seen the truth in this and with in a month they were all in full uniform. Leaders have to lead, they have to know the correct style of leadership that is needed. Unit leaders deliver the program, they lead the unit but they are accountable to the Unit Committee and the CO. If they are not doing their job they need to be replaced and the people who tell them are the COR along with the Unit Committee. It is when we fail to do this that this Loosey-Goose sets up shop. I know each and every unit leader in the district. I know the good, the bad and the ugly. I knew them when I was District Commissioner, I knew them when I was attending R/T's as a Cubmaster. I attended Council Commissioner Cabinet meetings the Council Commissioner knew who the bad and the ugly ones were, but the District and the Council can't do anything. So the job lies in the hands of the CO and his representatives. Eamonn.

Hi NJCubScouter, In answer to your question: "... but is there a particular post or a statement in a particular post that this new thread is a reaction to? I was reacting to the post by Prairie_Scouter (I don't mean to be a smart Alec, but I think you knew that!!) To be honest I felt that the thread British Scouting changes oath was a dead horse, being as the Brits hadn't changed the Scout promise. While Prairie_Scouter made some valid and to my mind good points. However such phrases as: "So, those of us who don't agree with the apparent tendencies of BSA to lean toward the conservative right, are here not because we're trying to invade someone else's turf, but because we think that BSA should be open to us as well as the conservative right" And "There are many who would make the case that it's the conservative right that's trying co-opt BSA for their purposes" And "Baden-Powell, to my knowledge, never said that the Scouting movement was created to be the bastion of religious conservatives" Do make it seem that we as an organization have a left and a right wing. Which of course we don't. Is the gay thing political? Surely there has to be Republican and Right wing homosexuals? I admit to not knowing very much about how deep feelings run in other parts of the USA. I did catch POV on PBS late last night, the show titled:The Education of Shelby Knox, which deals with feisty teenager Shelby Knox of Lubbock, Texas. Although her county's high schools teach abstinence as the only safe sex, Lubbock has some of the highest rates of teen pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases in the nation. Shelby, a devout Christian who has pledged abstinence until marriage herself, becomes an unlikely advocate for comprehensive sex education, profoundly changing her political and spiritual views along the way. Later in the show; Shelby now allies herself with a group of gay students who have been denied the right to form a gay-straight alliance in school. Near the end of the show Shelby is committed to working with the gay teens, who have decided to sue the Lubbock School Board. She has also declared herself to be a liberal Democrat, a turn that shocks her Republican parents. But when an organization whose slogan is "God Hates Fags" comes to Lubbock to protest the gay kids' lawsuit, Shelby, along with her mother, joins a counter protest, carrying a sign that reads "God Loves Everybody," and affirming a belief that will guide her into adulthood: "I think that God wants you to question," Shelby says, "to do more than just blindly be a follower, because he can't use blind followers. He can use people like me who realize there's more in the world that can be done." I am guilty of having an "I'm alright Jack" attitude about homosexuals and Gay rights. Up until about a year ago I had never ever met a gay teenager. I honestly did not believe that there were any. But my son has a friend that claims to be gay. He was at a few parties that OJ was at and has been over to watch football games at our house (We have the big telly) The Lad is a nice Lad and is a bit of a clown. OJ, seems happy to have different groups of friends, he has his school friends, Soccer friends, Scouting and OA friends. He is happy to compartmentalize these groups and many if not most of his friends do the same thing. When Danny the Gay Lad comes to watch a game, I don't look at him as being anything other than one of my son's friends. Danny is a cheerleader and is as athletic as any of the Soccer players. I don't think he has ever expressed any desire to be a member of the BSA. While I think we have raised OJ not to be prejudiced or homophobic and while I haven't asked him I don't think he would be very happy to have Danny join in with his Boy Scout friends. This is also true of some of his soccer friends he doesn't want them to cross the line. If we accept that the BSA is a private club and are willing to suffer whatever the consequences that brings. Each of us adults and children old enough to be able to decide? Have to make the choice do I want to belong to this club or not? I belong to a club that has a fairly high membership fee and charges me $120 a month in fees.While the club does not discriminate against black or other ethnic minorities, I am the only non American member!! I only joined because I didn't want to build a swimming pool. I suppose that the club could offer lower fees or offer free membership to try and be more diverse. I can't see it happening, but when I joined I never gave it a thought. Eamonn.

Some thoughts, not in any real order. If, in my opinion we are going to see any real improvement we need to do it at the unit level. This could mean that we might need to be more selective in who our Chartered partners are and what they are going to do. Everything needed to deliver the program (Apart from enthusiasm!!) is covered in a BSA publication. I'm thinking mainly about the Handbooks. Of course the "Top Guy" in the chartering organization has a lot of other things going on, so the COR would need to play the active role. The selection of the COR would have to be a very careful selection and he or she would need to be trained and shown where the resources are. While the Council, District or National can't make the COR accountable to them,he or she would need to be accountable to the CO. We District types need to really work at improving our relationships with our CO. Having the DE pop in once a year to get a paper signed and having the UC pop in again to get the charter signed is not enough. Maybe we need a meeting once a year where the people from the District (DE, UC,)meet with the unit leader the COR and the Executive Officer. A report of what is happening in the unit from both the Districts view and the Unit Leaders view could be given. The report could include things that are good and bad: Near the end of the meeting a plan could be made to correct the bad things. This report could cover any and all things: Untrained or all trained leaders, uniform, advancement, outdoor activities and so on. We need to stress to the CO how important it is that they select quality leaders and that these leaders work for them, they don't work for us. Maybe at this meeting it might become apparent that the unit leadership just isn't working and the selection committee needs to meet and select someone who will deliver the program. If by "Loosey-Goosey" you mean do we have unit leaders that are not delivering the program? The answer is yes, but we didn't select or appoint them. They work for the CO and except in extreme circumstances only the CO or person or persons representing the CO can remove them. Eamonn.

I always was a mixed up kid. My Mother was a true blue Conservative. In fact after she had a stroke and was very confused she told everyone that Maggie Thatcher was in the room with her. Dad was a member of the Labour Party. My older brother is about as right wing as you can get. My youngest sister has appeared on breakfast TV, in the UK with Tony Blair's wife Cherie. While at college I was a member of the young socialist party. I have never seen Scouting as being political. Kids join Scouts to have fun. Sure, when I was a Venture Scout back in England we would discuss politics, we were at an age when we were right and we were going to save the world. But we never looked upon these discussions as being part of the program. OK, so the groups that choose to charter units are churches and VFW's, I know a lot of left wing catholics and servicemen. Maybe I'm lucky? I am not in any way connected to any of our chartering organizations. The Troop that OJ belongs to is chartered by the local Civic Club, the Mayor of the small town is the Executive Officer, he has been Mayor for ever and is a Democrat. No one is twisting anyone's arm to belong to a unit chartered by a church, but if we choose to accept a leadership role, we are in fact an extension of that organization's youth program.However once we accept the role our job is the delivery of the BSA program. Maybe I'm still mixed up but I fail to see anything political about it?

Kind of to echo what Bob said. We had our Executive Board meeting up at camp tonight, the board at with the Scouts all board members sat at different tables and talked to the Scouts, which I thought was nice. After the meal we had a very long and very tough meeting. Decisions that had been put off, in the hope that the good Scout fairy would work her magic had to be faced. We found out that our Council along with 28 other Organizations were being de-funded by the United Way over the next 3 years, the budget that was passed in January did include a $100,000 deficit!! Our Dinners are down $20,000 add in the $26,000 cut this year from the United Way and it was doom and gloom all around. Ideas were voiced, discussions became heated, people got hot under the collar. Cuts were made and prices increased.Ideas of how to raise more money, without hurting programs were explored. When it was over the Scouts were still camping having a wonderful time. Neither them or their leaders have any idea. Just like my son has no idea of what I have to spend each year to keep him fed, housed and happy. Eamonn.

Good Old Saint Anthony!! About the only bright spot on a very tough night meeting with the Executive Board. I need a Saint who can deliver $150,000. Eamonn.

I think it comes under Trustworthy. Eamonn.

Venturing and Sea Scouting could provide the program that these older Scouts yearn for. The problem is leadership. There are people like myself who think it might well be a good program, but it's not for them. Just as some Cubmasters never move up into Boy Scouting and are happy to stay working with the little fellows. I may be guilty of being an old stick in the mud, but my feelings are that there are a lot of good and worth while organizations that do a lot to serve the youth in the communities where they operate, but I chose boy Scouting and didn't choose Venturing. We lost 3 Crews this year (They didn't recharter) One only started last year and never ever had a meeting!! One started two years ago and the Adviser bought a green shirt, that's about all he did. The other didn't do a lot, but was around for about 4 years, they didn't recharter because the Crew never had any new members just the core group that were there when it started. All were connected to Boy Scout Troops. In most cases these Crews said that they were high adventure, sad to say the leaders only adventure was watching the Discovery Channel. We have a Crew that is doing a wonderful job, the girls and the boys (Mostly ex-Scouts) are doing lots of stuff. The Adviser is an ex- Assistant Scoutmaster, who took six years off and returned. Nearly all the Crew Members are in some kind of gifted math class that he teaches at a local HS. While in other threads the big concern is membership and numbers, I have a nagging feeling that do nothing leaders are the big problem. We have 16 Troops in the District, of this 16, one is dieing in fact it's dead but it won't lie down, one is thinking about dieing, they have the adults but never do anything but work on merit badges. One is new, only about six years old, up till now they have done a wonderful job, but they don't have the skills to take older Scouts to the next level. One has the reputation of being one of the better Troops in the Council. I attended a COH and someone gave me a stack of photos taken when they were in Canada canoeing. As I looked through the photos I seen a lot of the adults and very few Scouts. I asked the SM how many people went on the trip? He said that 18 went,eight scouts and ten leaders. I looked at their membership list and they for the second year running had lost nearly all the little guys who crossed over.The SM talks about kids not liking the program, but to my mind the program has become an Adult Club, where a select group can tag along. The rest have SM's who have all been SM's for at least 12 years or more, some a lot more. These guys are happy to do the same old same old and they are being joined by adults who wear the ASM patch, but their reason for joining is just to keep an eye on their son. They don't even bother to learn the most basic skills. They are just there. This is fine, but one day when their son reaches about 15, he will want to do stuff and if it isn't there for him to do he is going to quit and Dad will be the guy saying that Scouting had nothing to offer and little Timmy outgrew Boy Scouts. Eamonn.

Not to dwell on tents!! A little Lad joins a Troop, one of the first things he learns is the Scout Oath: On my honor I will do my best To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight. My honor. I will do my best To do my duty Keep myself. Seems to me that if a Lad is doing all that he is working on becoming self reliant. Eamonn.

I was just entering Scouting in the UK when the Advanced Party Report (1969) changes were made and British Scouts went with green berets. This was part of the then new uniform, long dress pants, a long sleeved green dress shirt and each troop had it's own necker. The Scout Laws were reworded and went down to only seven laws. The change was tough on a lot of old timer and many quit. But as if to add insult to injury, they also came up with the idea that no one over 65 years old could be a warranted. A rule they changed. However trying to get back on topic!!! Looking at the Policy, Organisation and Rules the Scout Association, I went back to 2002 looking for a change in the Scout promise (Not Oath) and didn't find any change. The following is taken from http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/index.php The purpose of Scouting: The purpose of Scouting is to promote the development of young people in achieving their full physical, intellectual, social and spiritual potentials, as individuals, as responsible citizens and as members of their local, national and international communities. The Scout Method: The Scout Method provides an enjoyable and attractive scheme of progressive training, based on the Scout Promise and Law, which is guided by adult leadership. In practice the method is best seen when young people, in partnership with adults, are: enjoying what they are doing; learning by doing; participating in varied and progressive activities; making choices for themselves; taking responsibility for their own actions; working in groups; taking increasing responsibility for others; taking part in activities outdoors; sharing in prayer and worship; making and living out their Promise I really like the way that is worded!! The Scout Law: A Scout is to be trusted. A Scout is loyal. A Scout is friendly and considerate. A Scout belongs to the world-wide family of Scouts. A Scout has courage in all difficulties. A Scout makes good use of time and is careful of possessions and property. A Scout has self-respect and respect for others In my day the:A Scout belongs to the world-wide family of Scouts. Was a Scout is a brother to all Scouts. But with a Coed program, that would be kinda hard!! The Scout Promise: On my honour, I promise that I will do my best To do my duty to God and to The Queen, To help other people And to keep the Scout Law. Rule 1.1: Variations to the wording of the Promises: Scouting is open to all faiths and must therefore take account of the different religious obligations of its Members while upholding the essential spirit of the Promise. In each Promise the phrase 'Duty to God' or, in the case of Beaver Scouts, 'to love God', is suitable for most faiths (including Christians, Hindus, Jews, Muslims and Sikhs). Hindus may use either the words 'my Dharma' or 'God'. Orthodox Muslims may use the word 'Allah' in place of 'God'. Buddhists should use only the words 'my Dharma'. Where some other form of wording is required for a member of a particular faith or religion advice should be sought from Headquarters. Similarly it is accepted that foreign residents who may become Members of the Association owe allegiance to their own country. To meet these circumstances the phrase 'duty to The Queen' should be replaced by the phrase 'duty to the country in which I am now living'. In the case of Beaver Scouts, Cub Scouts and Scouts the decision as to which permitted form of wording should be used in any particular case will be made by the Group Scout Leader in consultation with the parents of the young person concerned. In the case of Explorer Scouts, Scout Network members and adults the decision as to which permitted form of wording should be used in any particular case will be made by the District or County Commissioner as appropriate in consultation with the person concerned While many people would think that anything in The Sunday Times, has got to be true!! The best selling newspaper in the UK is the Sun. The Sun was famous for page 3, which was a photo of a half naked female! Both the Sun and the Sunday Times are owned by Rupert Murdoch. Yes the same guy that owns: Fox Movie Channel Fox News Channel Fox Sports Digital Need I say more?? So being that there hasn't been any changes to the Scout Promise, what shall we talk about now? Eamonn.

Hi Hops It takes AA batteries. Sad to hear that your camera is feeling sick. I was looking forward to seeing lots of Jamboree shots on your web page. Eamonn.

Back in the day!! Our guys had to get their cash to the Patrol member who was buying the food, a week before the event. This might fall a little short on being Kind, but it worked for us. (Once the food was bought and paid for there were no refunds!) Eamonn.