Eagledad

While Mrs. Barry was a GS leaders, I talked to a lot of the families. It wasn't so much that girls wanted more camping, they were got tired of the cabin type of camping. At least in our area. I'm not sure tent camping would change the GSUSA all that much because while they saw tent camping as more romantic, it wasn't something they wanted every month. Now of course there are the few that would love it, but I didn't get the feeling that was a majority desire. The other part of the GSUSA that drove a few girls away is the independence the girls were given (I mean weren't given) in their activities. Adult run doesn't even begin to describe how the troops work. Girls are given so little opportunity for independent thought (much less decision making) that my wife was embarrassed to be associated with the organization. She said girls weren't ever allowed to leave their group at summer camp and they had to be led by their adult leaders everywhere. That more than anything drove my wife away. My wife believed if dads were allowed to assist leading the GS troops, the GSUSA would be more popular. Males are just more adapt with outdoor scouting. Her words, not mine. Me, I agree with what ever the politically correct members on this forum feel at the moment. Barry

Yep, and I’ve seen it protested as adding requirements more than once. That’s why I said that even the most passionate “adding requirements” gate keeper will find themselves being accused. Barry

Maybe it's all in how we explain it, but adding requirements wasn't a big discussion when I was a trainer. Discipline and uniforms seem to be the long discussions. Boy run had it's own discussion. It just seems odd to me that adding requirements has become hot. I was curious if the timing had something to do with a fear for the girls and their race to be Eagle. Barry

I've been seeing a few posters squeezing in "no adding requirements" to their posts on subjects that have nothing to do with advancement. Is there something going on in this generation of troops that has led to these concerns? I remember the phrase was kind of trendy about 20 years ago with the large influx of new scouters, but then faded off as units gained experience and went on about their business. We saw a post now and then of abuse, but not so much of just throwing it out there on nonrelated subjects as I'm are seeing now. What have I missed in the last 5 years that has changed? Just an aside; As the scouters learned 20 years, not requesting something of a scout during the advancement related part of his scouting experience is next to impossible. Some troops add attendance requirements, some ask about skills experience. Some even say that wearing the uniform or repeating the Oath or Law at the BOR (I've even heard EBOR) is adding requirements. What I'm saying is that all of us are likely guilty of asking (adding) something of the scout that isn't strait out of the book. It's just a matter of how far we go with our hypocrisy, but if someone wants to leverage a protest, you may find yourself awkwardly defending your request. Barry

Welcome back Pack. Barry

Where did you get this stuff? I would have thought a post-modern nomad just meant the Airstream trailer was replaced with a teardrop camper trailer. Barry

Thanks because post-modern nomad sounds so much better. Barry

Hmm, ok. Barry

What a strange post, Horizon. I understand you to say, "Don't do for your kids what they can do for themselves, but don't let them do to much for themselves because it may be to much"? This texting generation is a challenge for me. Barry

Woo there mac. I'm sure you are right, but that means things changed. Educate us, how do you know all volunteers are checked? Are you part of the group that does the checking? Barry

In the design, the CC is the Gate Keeper of the program. The CC should be the go to expert of the program vision. Most people naturally give the SM that role because they have to make it work at the ground level. But the more stable longer running programs are maintained by the CC who maintains the leadership quality of the program. I used to push all troops to send their CCs to Scoutmaster Specific Course so the CCs would have a better understanding of the troop program. But only 1 in 10 showed up. I don't blame them, it is a long dry course. However, how can the CC recruit if they don't understand the adult roles of the program. Most units fill the CC position with someone willing to give the time. Qualified scouters are rarely recruited because nobody takes on the task of finding one. It's the CO's responsibility to find the CC, but usually the task is led by the UC. And typically the UC doesn't know the families or the qualities of the troops membership. So, along with all the other great advice, go to the SM Specific course, or at the very least, get and read the SM Manual. You will be amazed how much you can help the program just by understanding goals and mechanics of the operation. Barry

Yep! Adults prefer order. Actually, Scouts do to, but they haven’t had enough life experiences to create order as fast as the adults. And the adults don’t understand that the patrol experience is developing the skills for creating order. The more room Scouts are allowed for chaos, the faster they learn how to make order. The Troop is real life scaled down to a boys size. Barry

A district is only as good the leader. The leader could be the District Chairman, District Commissioner, or even the DE. But you will find the better Districts hand recruit the District positions. Hand recruiting is an art form in of itself. It requires some research to find specific talents to fit specific needs, and then a warm conveniencing personality for inviting new members to join the team. The weaker Districts do something closer to filling in slots with warm bodies. One warm body nearly destroyed our Cub recruiting that took several years to rebuild. I was most applaud by the instructor teaching Woods Tools in Cocomax’s post. The only lesson she gave the participants was her fear of using the tools. Scouts have been using axes safely for around 100 years. The instructor taught them how to use it to its least intended design. She should not have been asked to teach that subject. Nothing can turn off new leaders to training faster than a terrible presenter. The training committee is the least respected for the weight of its importance. The better teaching districts search professionals and experienced presenters with the skills to teach interesting and enjoyable courses. Those of us who taught the SM Specific course in the early days understand the importance of turning challenging (extremely boring) course material into interesting and informative instruction. We brought in a college professor and professional course presenter to help us design a course model for that material. The district is still using it 18 years later. Cocomax knows his subject well, but how much are we risking by not learning more about is presentation skills? Personally, I would be interviewing him for a Unit Commissioner. I like style on the forum. Barry

I developed and taught a patrol method class. I found the struggle for many adults is just believing that patrol method does work. I gave some examples to the class of what Scouts can achieve with independence. One scouter stood up and called me on letting Scouts go on a 5 mile hike without adults. I asked him what scared him about the hike. He mentioned the obvious concerns like getting lost, or hurt, or even confronting strangers. I explained all adults have fears that hold them back from giving Scouts independence. I showed him how to remove those fears by teaching map and compas and using GPS. I suggested letting the Scouts hike in town in a familiar route so they couldn’t get lost this first time out. I explained teaching first aid and dealing with strangers in a scout like manner. The objective, I explained, was to use training to ease the adult fears. The skeptical scouter sat down without saying thing, but he approached me two years later at another course to tell me that he did exactly what I suggested and it worked. He apologized for being rude that day, but thanked me for patiently showing him how to run a patrol method program. So I agree with your suggestion of teaching patrol method. But it is a challenging concept for adults to consider, much less accept. Truth is just about every troop of adults feel they are using patrol method because they have patrols. What defines the different troops are the limits they place on the Scouts independence because they fear the worst. What adults need to learn is how to get past their fears. I showed them how to do that with training. But all I was really doing was getting them to understand Scouts are only limited by the adults and the adults can do something about it. How they get out of way isn’t as important as understanding the need to do it. This forum does pretty good sometimes explaining true patrol method and showing scouters how to get past their fears. But I don’t know how much adults want true patrol method anymore, the Patrol Method forum used to be one of the most active forums, now it’s hardly even touched. I’m not even sure what adults want from scouting anymore. Barry

I agree, with everything you said, but it’s outdoor and patrol basics like picking leaders, standing in formation, flag ceremonies and so forth that are difficult for new scouters. Most troops are pretty standard in those areas and that is huge benefit for new troops. The DE in another district called once for advice on dealing with a new troop of 40 new Scouts and 5 adults with zero scouting experience. The adults had not let their scouts lead an assembly after three months because they didn’t feel comfortable to let the scouts take that responsibility. The troop was run like a Webelos den. Patrol methed is a very difficult concept even for experienced scouters. Rarely do those of us hardcore Patrol Method experienced Gurus on this forum always agree. Inexperienced adults are so far behind in running a troop program, they typically focus on advancement by default because it’s the easiest method teach and measure. Troops with experienced adults are about 3 years ahead because they know how to use the other 7 Methods from the beginning. Sadly the Unit Commissioner Corp is used like they could be. Patrol methed is very difficult to teach. Consistent guidance works really well when a good UC is matched with a willing troop staff. But that is very rare. Barry Barry

I’m not sure what you are seeing, but one or two experienced scouters in a group 8 were always farther ahead than the group of 8 with no experienced scouters in our outdoor basic courses. They were so far behind that we made sure at least one experienced scouter was in an adult patrol. We observed that new troops with adults of no experience were 3 years behind new troops with some experienced leaders. The most challenging adults are the Cub Scout leaders that had no youth experience. They were know it alls in training that wouldn’t listen to the instructions. Then they couldn’t stop telling scouts what to do in the troops. We absolutely did not let Adult Cub crossovers help with the new scouts. They had to observe at least past summer camp. Barry

Most training in anything is designed around the student having some knowledge of the subject. That worked fine for the BSA until the membership change in 1990. The percentage of adults joining the bsa before that change was more than 50%, closer to 70%. Then the number jumped below 50%, dropping below 40% in just a few years. So you can imagine the shift of students with ZERO knowledge of the scouting program, at both vision and skills. You can respect the challenge National has in developing a training program that teaches an adult with zero knowledge of scouting, while not driving away the adults who have been there and done that. However, I believe the new membership changes wil result in recruiting less than 20% experienced adults. That kind of number will invite a training program designed to develop adults with zero knowledge of scouting. That goal will require considerable personal time, so the other 20% will have to consider watching from the sidelines. Or testing out. How ever it goes, the program will adapt to the average performance of trained adults without previous experience. I’m not exactly sure what qwazse is suggesting because this is basically how training ran before the training changes in 2000. And that model worked fine until the adult membership changes in 1990. After 1990, Scouts started complaining the adults were driving them to mimic their adult training program experiences. That was part of the motivation for the new training philosophy of 2000 of putting more emphasis on the scouting vision and building an adult team to build a program toward the vision. As result of the recent membership changes, scouting is going to have to change for the new inexperienced adults. I personally don’t see how training can take up the slack to get adults functioning at today’s program, so the program will have to change to meet their abilities. It will have to dumb down. At least from the perspective of us old-timers. Barry

It’s worse than that, the quality of the average unit program is directly related to the quality of training. True, a few units can ignore training because their adult staff is sufficiently skilled, but adult turnover eventually catches up to where the unit is relying on the training for their program. Barry

I guess. I worked with a lot of female ASMs who were mostly excited about learning scout skills. I pacified them as much as I could, but I mostly tried to teach them the fine art of sitting around the campfire all day long. Really! All I want from adults is for them to understand the Vision of helping scouts become moral and ethical decision makers. The scouts' Scout Handbook and Leaders Handbooks have enough information for them to do the other scouting stuff. You said it a few days ago, scouting really doesn't require very many adults. Just one really. But, adults want to reinvent the wheel when they feel power. They want to use their new found power to be relevant. That patch on their shoulder seems to be a battery pack for that power. Get ready for the new wave of inexperienced adult leaders. I remember when we spent most of our time in the Patrol Method forum. Ah! Those were the good-ol days. Barry

Your cultural defensiveness is showing your ignorance. Many times we are talking about issues that are the result of adult leaders who don't have any previous scouting experience. The fact is the vast majority of inexperienced adult leaders are women. And, hold on to your seat ParkMan, but the vast vast majority of adult leaders without any camping experience are women. And over the years I've been working this issue, I also found that while a lot of mothers are willing to learn camping skills, the great majority don't. We even had one female SM bragging how good her scouts were with crafts because she just didn't like camping all that much. In fact, I have worked with several female Scoutmasters and I can say none of them really cared for the Patrol Method. It's too chaotic letting scouts run the show. That being said, we have had a couple really good female Patrol Method Scoutmasters on this forum. I just never work with one personally. The BSA has been working with that issue since 1990 when they brought women leaders into the troop programs. The big training changes you saw around 2000 were the result of better training for unexperienced adults, that was motivated the surge of inexperienced adult leaders in 1990. I spent a lot of time working in the Webelos area that suffers from huge membership drop out numbers. We found that female bear leaders who were burning out had no desire to camp and teach outdoor skills. As a result, they either quit or put on a very boring program. There are many areas of the scouting program that is struggling as a result of unexperienced scout leaders. As soon as you can get past your bias toward traditional scouters, you can help work the problem. Barry

I think it's how our wives have trained us. Barry

This was predicted on the forum back when the discussion of girls started. Sexism has been used on this forum lately when the discussion of females comes up. I don't think it's malicious either, I think they really believe it. The traditional program is so foreign to their perspective, the opposition must be personal. As the larger numbers of strong personalities with no youth scouting experience join, programs will change toward the vision of those leaders instead of the goals and vision of the BSA. It's a natural result. In the past, the BSA had enough experienced scouters to resist most of these types of adults. But it is quickly shifting. Barry

I think mourning describes exactly the response by many of us. Scouting has, or had, a purpose that wasn't just a marketing slogan. We experienced the true effects of growth from our scouting experiences both as youth, and as adults. Those who belittle others for not embracing the new program are naive to understanding the power of the traditional program in helping boys develop lifelong habits of character. Those who show frustration with opposing opinions can't seem to rationalize how many of us consider their condescending tone to be un-scout-like. We don't just believe the power of practicing oath and law has on developing the noble character, we embrace it. Barry

This has also been brought with homosexuality several years ago. One study was about female college students experimenting with lesbianism because it was a fad. Not because they felt that was their preferred sexual desire. My high school teacher son said he doesn't tell me a lot of stuff in this area about his students because I wouldn't believe him. But, peer pressure makes their lives very complicated. I am so glad my kids are grown up. However, they are firing grand kids at me like a machine gun. The worrying never stops. Barry

The article is about freedom of speech, but the subject of the debate is a study of why youth are changing the gender identity. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/08/30/brown-u-pulls-gender-dysphoria-study-worried-that-findings-might-invalidate-perspectives-transgender-community.html ""“The onset of gender dysphoria seemed to occur in the context of belonging to a peer group where one, multiple, or even all of the friends have become gender dysphoric and transgender-identified during the same timeframe,” she added."" ......... ""Parents said teens “exhibited an increase in social media/internet use prior to disclosure of a transgender identity,” which led to the conclusion that “friends and online sources could spread certain beliefs.”" If scout leaders encourage youth follow today's fad, aren't they part of the problem? Barry