Eagledad

And what if the Muslim or Jewish parents of those youth demand your church start teaching their religion to all the youth? Can't be done. Atheist adults have no more desire for the present BSA Oath and Law than the teachings of your church. Mediocrity requires giving up the virtues that make the program special. Barry

Not really, not in the big picture anyway. The problem with religions on the micro scale is they let the devil get into the details. Why would they, they have the Oath and Law. Well, it's a bit more complex than that, but yes, determining right and wrong at cultural level has to come from god. I believe youth learn most of their discernment from observing the role models in their community. Humility is the source of intended good while pride is the source of intended bad. Man by nature is undisciplined and prideful and their selfishness drives them drive toward intended bad. On the other hand, teaches man to live by the intent of humility. A disciplined community of humble role models can only come from god guidance because man's natural selfishness and pride will never agree on a community of humble actions. Not without force anyway. Force is not humility. The creators of the Scouting movement thought much the same. Otherwise why would they give scouts the Oath and Law to direct their behavior if they already had the habits of determining right and wrong? Barry

It's risky using scripture out of context to justify a motive. Do not be deceived: “Evil company corrupts good habits. 1 COR 15:33 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 2 COR 6:14 Whoever walks with the wise becomes wise, but the companion of fools will suffer harm. Proverbs 13:20 Jesus preaches to love all and not judge their eternity with God. But not to the detriment of loosing the relationship with God. When the program looses it's mission of "prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law", then it's gone too far. My opinion is the National has lost sight of the mission and change the program to the detriment of loosing the values of the program. Barry

Excellent question. Consider my example of the YMCA. Do families today attend YMCA activities for character development, or for entertainment? Ironically, the discussion last week about making the Eagle more attractive with outdoor activity requirements shows how entertainment is already becoming the greater vision for the scouting program. A godless program for adults would certainly be easier because the definition of "the right thing to do", will be a reaction based from emotions in that moment. That is a lot easier because acceptable behavior will be defined by the member with the strongest pride. The proactive values of god (law and oath) encourage the actions from the strongest humility. A "the right thing to do" program will not be boy run because the scouts will have to wait for the adults to tell them the right or wrong behavior. Kind of scary since every adult likely has some different definition of "the right thing to do". Barry

If you want atheist, then you need to find support a movement to remove god from this scouting program. It's that easy, or hard. Either god is part of developing ethical and moral role modeling, or it's not. Barry

Sadly, many folks miss the point of learning by doing. Difference isn't always good, and experience isn't always growth. Scouting in an environment of practicing human values for a lifetime. I'm tired of defending a 100 year old program that takes a boy in his most influential years and turns him into the best kind of man who lives the oath and law to all people, for all people. So, I'm only going to say you are flat out wrong. Just because I don't accept your way of life doesn't mean I have less respect for the Oath and Law. The scouting program diluting into an after school outdoor program will only carry the respect of such. And that is fine, the YMCA switched from a character development program into a family fitness program and it survives. But it can't be said the boys whose lives were changed forever by a program designed to develop the most caring men of the world today's family soccer players. Barry

Yes, pretty unfair. Flying is not only the safest mode of public transportation, it is also the safest mode of private transportation. Not only is it safe for pilots and passengers, it is also one of the safer modes for the public on the ground. Private pilots have to perform a flight review every two years with a flight instructor to maintain currency, as well as check up by a FAA certified doctor. All aircraft have to be inspected a minimum of once a year, which requires some disassembly by a FAA certified Inspection mechanic. The inspection of commercial aircraft are inspected more often. Barry

I'm fine with the present application. I'd even be satisfied with NJ's sort-of religious qualifications. It's his occupation of law that comes into question. Barry

Yes, but I wouldn't call it a faith based organization as much as a religious values organization. Probably splitting hairs. Yes, we agree. In fact, I believe the same of youth who struggle with homosexuality, transgenderism, and other struggles. The issue is adults. Pragmatically, an organization should be allowed to one without the other. Realistically , that is impossible in this culture. There is extremism everywhere. We had a troop that only recruited home schooled scouts. They didn't last very long, but it's an example of adults blinded by their passion Barry

Isn't that like saying the Christian thing to do is hire an alcoholic cigarette smoking drug dealer for a baby sitter hoping the goodness of your children will rub off on him? Actually, it would be like an atheist saying to a Catholic and Lutheran boy he doesn't believe there is a god. Barry

What I'm saying is "Religion is the bases for the foundation of Scout Law and Oath", not the foundation of the Oath and Law. The Oath and Law are character values that have to come from somewhere. If that source is the SM, then the Oath and Law change depending on the character of the Scoutmaster from day to day. But the sources is god, so it doesn't change from SM to SM or from unit to unit. God is a single source that never changes. Now you may disagree because there are several different religions with several different interpretations, but for each family, the holy god is personal and above all. And what example does a godless SM set for the scouts? The values of scouting are supported by god, so how does that make sense? Barry

Shesh, not only are you going anyway, you opened it up to several discussions over the years. Let's start with this and see where it leads; God teaches Christians to love all, starting first with God. Just like the Scout Oath guides the scout to do his best and his duty to all, starting first with god. Maybe what is missing today with a lot of Christians is they aren't starting first with God. Barry

I think you would find the programs those of us who emphasize religion more in these discussion are about the same as those who emphasize it less. But the discussion is about the premise of the scouting program. Religion is the bases for the foundation of Scout Law and Oath, which are the values for preparing young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetime. As long as the values reflect back to god, then the scout leader can refer and balance his judgement to the family. And the scout can balance Scoutmaster's judgment with his god. God is single point quality assurance. Barry

That's mans failure, not god, or God. LOL, I know. But you did ask. Barry

It means, without god, all judgment is by man. Since man often disagrees with their neighbor, there is no objective guidance for behavior. Barry

Without god, smiting comes from the Scoutmaster. Barry Without god, smiting comes from the Scoutmaster. Barry

The global progressive agenda is anti-god, so taking god out of the program is inevitable. Some of us have been warning that god will be removed from the program since homosexual behavior was allowed as normal in the program. You can’t accept immoral behavior as normal with god standing over the principles of the program, so the liberal culture removes god to give man authority over the principles. Changes to the Oath and Law are close. Once that happens, unit leaders values will dictate moral and ethical behavior. Morality will depend on the strongest outspoken adult. Scouts will not be allowed to use their personal principles to balance the leaders judgment. Morality will be dictated by the guy with the biggest stick. Barry

This is our policy, which has worked very well. It goes along with qwazse’s suggestion. Barry.

Yep, I sort of agree. But you missed what I think is the National's biggest failure on the program, the over burdened Cub leader. The number one cause of Cubs not crossing over to troops is adult leader burnout. The effects of Cub leader burnout ripples through the whole program. The Tiger program alone requires a 3rd of the cub program resources. What does National do, ADD Lions. Barry

Have you ever seen this done? Barry

Well yes, but would you really want it any different? What you are talking about is personality of the adults in troop, not lack of quality control. Don't you think the program needs that much flexability? Programs in general do the best they can with the resources they can obtain. They may vary a little here in there with implementing the program, but it's more of a judgement of how they believe National intended, not a personal action purposely breaching the program. I find myself in an odd place defending National, but personally, I believe Nationals failures are the result of NOT listening, I mean really listening, to the units. However, you want National to hang around if you expect the program to survive, even with girls. And, while the Eagle part of the discussion got silly in the other thread with adding more adventure and so forth, truth is National has done a pretty good job of not letting the Eagle loose it's prestigious reputation. After reading some of the posts on this forum, would you want to implement some of their suggestions? I used to travel more for my business. So, I would get on the forum and ask to visit units across the country. While they each have their personalities, they all pretty much ran the same program. As scout from liberal California could easily join a Troop in the conservative south and without missing a beat. Because of training and the handbooks, everyone pretty much runs the same basic program. That integrity is the only thing that will save the program in the future, even with adding girls. Barry

Trust me, I am not fan of National. But while I agree with National's bloating ignorance and apparent disregard of the program at unit level, I disagree that program varies widely. Personally I'm very impressed by the similarities of unit programs across the US. Training materials are the primary structure that hold integrity in programs like the BSA. And while we all complain about the BSA training quality one way or another, it does keep the vast majority of the units running somewhat consistent respected programs. Yes, there are renegade programs, but they rarely last past one generation of adult leadership. In fact, one such leader recently on this forum was the SM of three Troops in the last 10 years. He didn't have to lead long before he was asked to move on by the parents who realized his program visions were not consistent or sound (or safe) with the BSA program. Truth of the matter, National is the main reason the BSA has the high level of respect from the communities that it has had for many decades. As much as I think National is the main cause of their problems today, I don't know how the program as a whole would manage without them. Barry

I would enjoy that very much, but not to observe your scouts experiencing true back country camping. I would just enjoy being with friendly like minded company. Barry

I’m skeptical gentlemen, the only time I’ve seen Troop Scouts in the last 20 years dig, umm “man-made” plumbing facilities was on high adventure trips in the wilderness. Brag all you want, but scouting hasn’t gained adventure just because the older Scouts used a trowel once a year. As for the BSA adding more adventure, I believe National figured it out. Badon Powell was wrong; scouting develops character and leadership simply by sending Scouts to Philmont once a year to backpack. That patrol method thing is a myth. Next year all troops are required spend a day at Six Flags. The Eagle is saved. Barry

Ah, so what you are saying is Hmm, ok. Ironically, scouters for the last 30 years, have been complaining that National has been taking too much adventure out of the program. You are saying National is now being forced to put adventure back in the program just to attract the girls. Interesting. Is this just hope, or do you know something we don't know? Barry