Eagledad

Well! Yes! The scouter was not confident with his skill in working this scout. Soooo, he should proceed outside of his comfort and possibly put others in the area in danger! It isn't just an issue with this particular situation at summer camp, I've seen it repeated several times over the years with unit leaders. Scouters (volunteers) only have so much experience for the different challenges that confront them. AND, I'm sure it's not the parents first time to run into adults who aren't comfortable working safely with their kids. So, who is responsible? Parents need to step up an expect to provide the assistance needed for the gap between the adults apprehension and their child's handicapped limitations. Two friends of mine became Scoutmasters just so their handicapped sons could have a fulfilling scouting experience. Barry

Yep, you stated it perfectly. It's about engaged, not advancement. I found in my own observations and poling that if a scout stays active after summer camp, the scout likely stays for several years. I believe summer camp is where everything the new scout has experience up to that time all comes together, or not. The BSA looses more youth during the first year troop experience than any other time. The problem is that difference from being told how to do just about everything by parents to relying on their independent decision making is huge. Up until they join a troop, most boys feel safe around adults. Now their safety depends on other scouts. Troops that help the scout just enough so he doesn't feel lost, but gives him enough of the independence to like making decisions have the most success. The numbers show that doing that kind of program is challenging. Barry

In most cases, leadership sessions are best used where role modeling doesn't exist for a needed skill. When our troop was young, we observed the patrols struggling to be organized on campouts. So, we scheduled a special session to work on organization. I remember the adults simulated a typical Patrol Corners meeting where the PL ran a meeting to plan menus and review camp schedule. About 2/3s way through the simulation, one of the Patrol Leaders said loudly "OH! I SEE!". And we saw a big performance change on the next camp out. The adults assumed the young PLs knew how use patrol corners for planning, but they were never taught and didn't know what they didn't know. As in most cases, it's a matter of understanding expectations. But once the skill is brought into the program, it shouldn't need to be taught again. For me, a required teaching session is a red flag that the patrol method is failing somewhere. Of course no troop program is perfect, and troop performance changes with scouts coming and going. So, there is always the need for some kind of training. But the key is identifying a need so the students have an eager desire to fix an annoyance. Barry

Interesting. Camp Alexander in Colorado with an elev 8200 ft. has a heated pool. They also do a Polar Bear swim one morning in their small lake. We typically ask the camps we visit for a free Troop time at one of the ranges. They never turned us down. It's not for advancement, just troop fun time. Barry

We are pretty much the same, but because we want scouts to actively use their independence to control their program, we don't tell them to ignore the summer camp first year program, we just ask that our Older Scouts sign off their books. That way the scouts have their independence and the troop protects the integrity of skills knowledge. Works pretty well. Barry

Why do parents believe scouts only have one summer camp to get their stinking badges. We don't need no stinking.......... If camp is fun, they will come. Swimming so the scout can attend water activities. Fun stuff for the rest of the week. Barry

Well said. Part of the problem with older scouts is that they are past the learning phase of scouting. Oh, they can learn a few tricks here and there, but basically what they are is what they became before age 14. I tell troop leaders that if they want to change the program, they need to build two programs. One for the older scouts to just hang on until they age out (if they stay that long), and the other is the new program with the young scouts. AND, training is really the wrong way to look at leadership development. The experts tell me that youth before puberty learn 90 percent of their habits by watching their role models. So, the best way to teach young scouts to be good leaders is expose them to good older scout leaders in action. Get them outdoors and let them take care of themselves. That is when the scouts start learning. I say all this so that adults start thinking about using adventure activities as the method of teaching instead of structure teaching sessions. As to the complexity of scouts not having enough experience, I agree. I think adults need to expose some of their experiences to scouts. Maybe even push them a little when the scout have some hesitancy. Scouts learn who they are by the decisions they make during their adventures. But if they aren't experiencing any adventure, they aren't making any decisions. Yes, push some adult ideas and experiences on them. Get them to think out of the box by role modeling thinking out of the box. They may grown at first, but young adults like being pushed out of their comfort zone. Just remember, once the stone starts rolling, get out of the way. More harm is done by saying "no" than by saying "show me". Barry

This is all quite right. But, we once had a series of PLCs create positions that one SPL dissolved. He said they are boring positions that scouts dread. OK, so goes the circle of life. I think what is also important is that the troop doesn't get in the way creativity and ideas. Maybe the SPL was reducing the PLC to a size manageable for him. Or maybe he just likes to be efficient. We had one high functioning scout who in 6 months time was a Venturing Crew leader, SPL, planned a trek to Montana all by himself, and aced the ACT. All in six months. The kid was incredible. He also got a full scholarship to MIT that year as well. I regret that my life was busy enough that I didn't appreciate his full potential at that time. I wish I had stayed in touch, b we had fun together, and I will always have those memories. When I look at why our troop was attractive to older scouts, I think we were flexible enough for scouts to make it theirs. I believe three out of five Adventure Crews fail in their first five years is because they don't have the flexibility to be shaped by the scouts. I found that only 30% of our scouts 14 and older scouts liked high adventure. Why did the other 2/3s hang around? According to the BSA (and many adults), high adventure is the key to keeping older scouts. My observations don't support that idea. Young adults like challenges and hanging out with like minded friends. Just camping with friends might be enough challenge for some scouts. If a scout wants more mature challenges of leadership or planning than the troop provides, where do they go? Well, there is OA and Venturing. Many youth are just looking for outlets for their dreams. I wish I could say there were easy answers. Barry

Yes, of course picking the positions that seem interesting are a good entry into responsibilities. But, as the positions get more to the troop level, they are more demanding, which seems to filter out the scouts with low ambition. So, it's never really been a problem. If a scout has the aptitude and ambition, they will keep progressing. For me, I used the tree for higher levels development of specific skills that added to rounded mature leadership of an older scout. I believe that a Patrol Leader would learn all the skills in our tree if they were willing to run for the position several times. That was not unusual when I was a scout, but it's not encouraged today because it is considered and entry level position. I would love to have lifer Patrol Leaders because they develop all the same skills as the tree in the troop level positions. I personally believe part of the reason troops struggle today is because they push their young scout through patrol leading to get them in troop level positions. Patrols don't really mature to their potential because the leaders aren't mature. Patrol leading is the most challenging leadership position in the troop and really requires the maturity of a 14 year old and older to grow from the experience. But, times have changed. One and done, then move on. Barry

Yes, but that is common in most all troops. It's not a flaw specific to electing the ASPL. You would surprised to learn that most (vast majority) of troops do not have a plan for developing leaders into higher positions like SPL. In fact, some adults call that adding to the requirements. Even the Handbooks don't really talk about it. But, the better performing troops have a suggested leadership development tree. It's only suggested, the scouts can try their own plan. Our minimum development tree is PL, Troop QM, ASPL and SPL. But I had one scout who during his third year showed me his plan to be the SPL in 18 months. I was impressed, but I wondered if he could pull it off skipping one of the responsibilities on the tree. I assumed if he had the initiative, he had the will. He did and was a really good SPL. The reason his plan was 18 months was because he was also on the swim team and couldn't put the time into the job during swim season. Did I say he earn top score on his ACT? Barry

True, there has to be a process for giving the ASPL expectations for growth (method behind the madness, so to speak). That being said, some scouts just aren't good leaders and have to take responsibility for it. I'm warmed to the thought of replacing the ASPL instead of the SPL. I really like the idea of coaching the ASPL while the SPL goes solo with the brunt of responsibility. I know, I appear to be a cheerleader for elect ASPLs. But, many of the best run Boy Run Patrol Method troops I've observed used that method of selecting their leadership. The better ones have 1 year SPLs with 6 Month ASPLs. The method seems to bring stability to the program. As I said, I wanted to give it a try, but our well performingg PLC declined. Barry

Yes, of course. But it is easier to discuss the qualities of different traits in an exclusive manner. Barry

I have seen this work in a few troops because it puts ASPL in a training position. I personally like the idea, but my PLC at the time of my proposal didn' t see the need for change. Most troops don't really use the ASPL very well, which leaves them with very little growth or skills development from the experience. But the troops that elect their ASPLs generally push them to work close or side-by-side with the SPL. We find a good SPL needs 4 to 6 months experience to become productive. A ASPL working along side with the SPL can step in with more experience and confidence and become productive in a shorter time. The other Troop positions like Quartermaster are select positions as well, so the ASPL can still have the responsibility of selecting the next generation of leaders. Barry

Shouldn't be a problem at night. Barry

I agree with the adult as a PL (works very well) only when the adult uses the youth handbooks in front of scouts and along with the scouts, (ie. Patrol Leaders Handbook, Senior Patrol Leader Handbook, and Scout Handbook). Adults with out guidance have a number of different ideas of how a patrol should function, but the youth handbooks direct the adults and scouts toward basically one picture of a functioning patrol. Also, a new unit needs the kindling of fun for growing into the fire of "Game with a purpose". Inexperienced adults more often than not focus to much on purpose. 5 scouts doesn't allow the adults any margin of error to learn from their mistakes. The adults who are willing to give the time must run the program at a pace they can keep their energy high. So, if that means only two meetings a month with one camp out every two months, then so be it, with the intentional goals of getting to the fun meeting each week and camp out each month. Focus on quality, not quantity. Focus on the game until everyone gets their feet underneath themselves, then they can work toward advancement and quality meetings. Barry

Both post are well said. I went into scoutmastering with the objective of AltadenaCraig's quote, "A leader is most effective when people barely know he exists". But, I found MattR's thoughts, "The best Scoutmaster is the one that does a great job motivating our kid". So, I believe both traits are equally important for a good Scoutmaster. And both, require practice. Parents by nature are active teachers of their young kids, so standing back and letting scouts make choices (bad choice) requires an intentional thought process. And practice. Learning to motivate the many different personalities of scouts and PLCs is an art all by itself. How does one motivate "one step forward" without commanding "Hey! Take one step forward"? Reminds me of my kids; Bless his heart, my oldest is the product of anxious nervous parents often using the swat of a hand for motivation, while our 3rd never knew sting. Practice, practice practice...........while barely existing. Barry

I believe the two fastest bonding scout activities are laser tag and treks. They each force the team members to deal with each other weaknesses and strengths quickly to have fun and success. Laser tag is out, so that just leaves treks. Barry

Pretty cool story. Has anyone consider displaying those old flags permanently in a protective case? They are very powerful mementos of a great era of scouting. Barry

I've said before that the two most challenging methods for the adults (and scouts for the opposite reasons) are Uniforms and Advancement. Both are challenging to the adults because each adult has a personal opinion or interpretation for how the scouts should apply the methods. However, I have said many times I don't agree with mixing girls into the troop program because Boys are different than Girls and mixing them together will diminish some growth opportunities from the boys. Learning to pay attention to "Details" is one of those opportunities. The natural instinctive nature of a boy is thinking in the big picture. They detest details and would be willing to work 10 times harder to reach the same goal without dealing with the details that is so natural for girls. As Latin Scot points out, Patrol method is all about details. So practicing the details of planning, assigning tasks, and follow-up actions are skills the scouts practice in their patrols to develop habits for the rest of their lives. Uniforming is just one more simple action that is a practice for turning details into a habit. I like how Latin Scot shows how the practice of many little details leads to servant motivation of actions. That is what is being missed so badly in men today. And our mediocrity culture promotes it. Where I find the valuable skill of uniform (details) a challenge is, as you are pointing out, with the adults. Your apathy toward the uniform isn't with how the scouts use he method, it's with the many different adult opinions of how the scouts should apply it. The scouts have a simple guideline for uniform in their Scout Handbook, the adults just need to let them follow it. Barry

Our PLC approached me with the proposal to turn jeans into the official uniform. My response was, "What does your handbook say". Their response was, "WE KNOW WHAT IT SAYS, WE WANT TO CHANGE THE IT". Long story short, 6 months later after doing some research, the PLC proposed of the Olive Drab Military Field pants, or BDUs our official uniform. In those days, the BSA pants didn't have usable side pockets and the fabric was uncomfortable in hot climates. The BDUs were exactly the same color, they were adjustable through 4 sizes, several fabrics to choose from, durable, lots of pockets and a 3rd the price when purchased in quality. I love the idea because they were so practical. But, me being stuck with scouts making good decisions, I said I would give their proposal to Council to make the BDUs official at all BSA activities. I didn't think they would say yes, but they did. Anyway, my son told a few months later that many of the scouts were wearing the BDUs to school because they were cool. So yes, mimicking the military uniform might help. Barry

I didn't imply anything. Your quotes are quite clear. The moderator said not to disparage the scout, but the the quotes you are taking out of context are opinions of motivations. Motivations that some of the posters here say are NOT wrong. All that being said, you're the one using words like sinister, which come under the context of disparaging. The only reason the mods don't call you on your posts is because your disparaging remarks are toward adults. I personally don' t agree there should be line drawn, which was the motivation for my comments. Barry

Some believe that self-servingness in the desire to be first does not represent the noble image of the Eagle. You may not agree, but is that opinion sinister? Is agreeing to disagree agreeably really so hard? LOL! Silly me, I already said that. Barry

Shesh, even you admit that your context of his words is out of context of his intended opinion. So, are you suggesting he should re-post his words differently so you don't (can't) take him out of context? Is agreeing to disagree agreeably really so hard? Barry

My wife was surprised to see "Fire Ring" ads on her Facebook after requesting I build a fire ring in the back yard for the grand kids. Apparently the digital gods don't trust my fire ring building skills. Try never to forget that The Man is always lurking. 🙄 Barry

That's the problem, many adults don't separate the difference in the group. Have you ever observed a patrol of adults standing in formation next to an unfocused Patrol? The adults can't helped themselves in showing their irritation. More often than not they will act on that irritation instead of waiting for the youth leaders to act. The adults belong to the troop, the scouts belong to the patrol. Youth behave differently with the judgmental adults in their space. We want scouts to behave from their character, not from adult intimidation. I am amazed at the number adults who sign up to be scout leaders so they can experience the youth part (patrol method) of scouting. I found getting them to imagine themselves as mentors waiting patiently in the shadows for the scouts to approach them somewhat challenging. They wanted to play boy scout with their sons. Our adults don't march with the scouts to assembly or activities, they either arrive earlier or later. They don't stand where the scouts can view them, but behind or away. Our adults never raise the scout sign before the scouts, instead they wait for the youth leader. The adults are just passive resources waiting for the scouts make a request of them. Barry